Also: Anyone else messing with poker these days?

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Also: Anyone else messing with poker these days?

Post by RCC: Act II » Thu Dec 14, 2017 4:44 am

Globalpoker is interesting. Both it's legal stance and that the play reminds me of pokerstars in 2006.

ACR is depressing. I'd rather do play money on Stars than play on ACR at this point. I only have money on it because trying to wade the money back in through bitcoin sounds like a thing right now.

Live poker around here is just sad dead. My local casino has some decent demand, but can't/won't hire dealers so they have enough players for six or seven games and wind up with three games and a lot of pissed off people...

Anyway... it was interesting to see how thinking about the game developed. It makes me feel old.

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Re: Also: Anyone else messing with poker these days?

Post by Rob Lister » Thu Dec 14, 2017 12:32 pm

https://globalpoker.com/page/faq
That's quite the business model.

They are couching the rules in such strict legalese that I'm having a hard time following.

First thing in the FAQ
Is Global Poker legal?

We are pleased to announce that Global Poker is the first social poker site that offers a safe and secure cash out of winnings to players in the US. We are a leading poker site that offers a unique Sweepstakes model which has been approved by high profile companies such as Facebook and PayPal. These companies have conducted their own due diligence on our $weepstakes Model.
Somewhere in there is the answer to the question, but damned if I can find it. :cry:

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Re: Also: Anyone else messing with poker these days?

Post by Anaxagoras » Thu Dec 14, 2017 1:48 pm

They're not claiming that it's legal, only "safe and secure".
A fool thinks himself to be wise, but a wise man knows himself to be a fool.
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Re: Also: Anyone else messing with poker these days?

Post by Rob Lister » Thu Dec 14, 2017 2:03 pm

I haven't played poker since Full Tilt when tits up.

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Re: Also: Anyone else messing with poker these days?

Post by RCC: Act II » Thu Dec 14, 2017 3:16 pm

Anaxagoras wrote:They're not claiming that it's legal, only "safe and secure".
They do, that is what the due diligence is referring to. Their big thing is that they've convinced PayPal and Facebook that it does not violate any gambling laws, and PayPal is pretty hardcore about that.

They base it on sweepstakes laws. This is why it is confusing. The short summary is that you aren't "depositing," you are purchasing their coins that are functionally internet play money. This part is clearly legal. As a "sweepstakes promotion" they also give the sweeps cash or whatever they call it. This makes the poker essentially a sweepstakes contest, and the prize is that they allow you to exchange this sweeps stuff for cash. That is the getting a bit cute part.

This model requires them to give entries (sweeps cash) to people that send them a letter asking for it, just like any other sweepstakes giveaway "no purchase required" provision. Which you can do.

It sounds absurd, but I can't spot the leak here. Apparently neither could PayPal.

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Re: Also: Anyone else messing with poker these days?

Post by Mentat » Thu Dec 14, 2017 5:02 pm

I'm waiting for the legal fustercluck when poker sites let you gamble their own cryptocurrency.
It's "pea-can", man.

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Re: Also: Anyone else messing with poker these days?

Post by gnome » Thu Dec 14, 2017 5:19 pm

The poker I've been playing has been from Telltale Games. All computer play which is possibly useless for a real player, but very entertaining as they have licensed several characters from other games or media as opponent personalities.

The latest version pits you against Brock from Venture Brothers, Claptrap from Borderlands, Ash from Evil Dead series, and Sam from Sam & Max. GlaDos is the dealer and insults you and everyone else the whole time. They have lots of recorded dialog and animation to the point where it doesn't start feeling repetitive until you are several hours in. Each seems to have their own play style and they even are experimenting with "tells". Better yet, through three different versions they've improved the pacing to where you can play even while the chatter's going on and it all seems very smooth and natural. Again, for someone that regularly plays against people it's probably too easy. As I am not a very good player and haven't often played against real people, for me it's nicely challenging.

"Tight Aggressive" as I understand the tactic seems to work well enough for winning, and usually when I lose it's because I got impatient. The most annoying thing is the computer goes all in a LOT, and often before the flop. Especially Ash, that fucker.

Speaking of, any thoughts of resurrecting the forum poker games?
"If fighting is sure to result in victory, then you must fight! Sun Tzu said that, and I'd say he knows a little bit more about fighting than you do, pal, because he invented it, and then he perfected it so that no living man could best him in the ring of honor. Then, he used his fight money to buy two of every animal on earth, and then he herded them onto a boat, and then he beat the crap out of every single one. And from that day forward any time a bunch of animals are together in one place it's called a zoo! (Beat) Unless it's a farm!"
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Re: Also: Anyone else messing with poker these days?

Post by RCC: Act II » Thu Dec 14, 2017 6:07 pm

Mentat wrote:I'm waiting for the legal fustercluck when poker sites let you gamble their own cryptocurrency.
I doubt that will happen. Using crypto to fund/withdraw from accounts is already going on. The US law that largely shut down US facing poker sites dealt with banking transactions, so a site that just used crypto would seem to avoid that.

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Re: Also: Anyone else messing with poker these days?

Post by Mentat » Thu Dec 14, 2017 7:02 pm

gnome wrote:The poker I've been playing has been from Telltale Games. All computer play which is possibly useless for a real player, but very entertaining as they have licensed several characters from other games or media as opponent personalities.

The latest version pits you against Brock from Venture Brothers, Claptrap from Borderlands, Ash from Evil Dead series, and Sam from Sam & Max. GlaDos is the dealer and insults you and everyone else the whole time. They have lots of recorded dialog and animation to the point where it doesn't start feeling repetitive until you are several hours in. Each seems to have their own play style and they even are experimenting with "tells". Better yet, through three different versions they've improved the pacing to where you can play even while the chatter's going on and it all seems very smooth and natural. Again, for someone that regularly plays against people it's probably too easy. As I am not a very good player and haven't often played against real people, for me it's nicely challenging.

"Tight Aggressive" as I understand the tactic seems to work well enough for winning, and usually when I lose it's because I got impatient. The most annoying thing is the computer goes all in a LOT, and often before the flop. Especially Ash, that fucker.

Speaking of, any thoughts of resurrecting the forum poker games?
My strategy is "aggressive but don't be stupid", and it works well until I inevitably forget the last part.
It's "pea-can", man.

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Re: Also: Anyone else messing with poker these days?

Post by shemp » Fri Dec 15, 2017 3:31 am

I played for awhile at WPT. You pay for a membership, and they give you points you can use to enter tournaments to win cash and prizes. There are no cash deposits or cash games. They had some games where you could win thousands of dollars or an entry into a WPT event. But mostly it was playing for hours trying to win pin money or even just trying to win some points so you could enter a tournament.
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Re: Also: Anyone else messing with poker these days?

Post by RCC: Act II » Fri Dec 15, 2017 3:34 am

I am sometimes curious just how well the AI is in poker games these days. It probably isn't that hard to get a somewhat competent bot depending on the nature of the game now that there is a lot of work being done in botting. I'd want to try massively unbalanced strategies just to test it though.

The last time I played a poker computer game it was a WSOP game back when the WSOP had like 300 people in it. If you tried to play tight, it was tough. If you folded every time the computer showed any aggression but otherwise raised every hand preflop and then bet 1/4 pot every street you could just run it over. I won the WSOP like 20 times in a row before I quit.

The Red Dead Redemption poker AI as I recall it liked to pay off big bets really, really light. Poker was a small part of that game but the AI would have run circles around the WSOP game.

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Re: Also: Anyone else messing with poker these days?

Post by Anaxagoras » Fri Dec 15, 2017 8:43 am

RCC: Act II wrote:
Anaxagoras wrote:They're not claiming that it's legal, only "safe and secure".
They do, that is what the due diligence is referring to. Their big thing is that they've convinced PayPal and Facebook that it does not violate any gambling laws, and PayPal is pretty hardcore about that.

They base it on sweepstakes laws. This is why it is confusing. The short summary is that you aren't "depositing," you are purchasing their coins that are functionally internet play money. This part is clearly legal. As a "sweepstakes promotion" they also give the sweeps cash or whatever they call it. This makes the poker essentially a sweepstakes contest, and the prize is that they allow you to exchange this sweeps stuff for cash. That is the getting a bit cute part.

This model requires them to give entries (sweeps cash) to people that send them a letter asking for it, just like any other sweepstakes giveaway "no purchase required" provision. Which you can do.

It sounds absurd, but I can't spot the leak here. Apparently neither could PayPal.
oK, but that's not a straight answer to a yes or no question
A fool thinks himself to be wise, but a wise man knows himself to be a fool.
William Shakespeare

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Re: Also: Anyone else messing with poker these days?

Post by RCC: Act II » Fri Dec 15, 2017 1:31 pm

Anaxagoras wrote:
RCC: Act II wrote:
Anaxagoras wrote:They're not claiming that it's legal, only "safe and secure".
They do, that is what the due diligence is referring to. Their big thing is that they've convinced PayPal and Facebook that it does not violate any gambling laws, and PayPal is pretty hardcore about that.

They base it on sweepstakes laws. This is why it is confusing. The short summary is that you aren't "depositing," you are purchasing their coins that are functionally internet play money. This part is clearly legal. As a "sweepstakes promotion" they also give the sweeps cash or whatever they call it. This makes the poker essentially a sweepstakes contest, and the prize is that they allow you to exchange this sweeps stuff for cash. That is the getting a bit cute part.

This model requires them to give entries (sweeps cash) to people that send them a letter asking for it, just like any other sweepstakes giveaway "no purchase required" provision. Which you can do.

It sounds absurd, but I can't spot the leak here. Apparently neither could PayPal.
oK, but that's not a straight answer to a yes or no question
Do they claim it is legal? Yes. They do.

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Re: Also: Anyone else messing with poker these days?

Post by Rob Lister » Fri Dec 15, 2017 1:33 pm

RCC: Act II wrote:I am sometimes curious just how well the AI is in poker games these days. It probably isn't that hard to get a somewhat competent bot depending on the nature of the game now that there is a lot of work being done in botting. I'd want to try massively unbalanced strategies just to test it though.
I think a year or so ago a bot was winning consistently against pros in limit hold-em but only head-to-head. No-limit was thought to be out of the limits of AI's for ages to come.

But 'ages' may have already arrived with the newer strategies of machine learning; they don't tell it how to win, they just tell it the rules and let it figure that out for itself; re alphazero

I do know this: even a simple bot will beat me easily enough. I did well enough at tables of real humans simply by staying away from big money tables.
Last edited by Rob Lister on Fri Dec 15, 2017 1:55 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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Re: Also: Anyone else messing with poker these days?

Post by Anaxagoras » Fri Dec 15, 2017 1:37 pm

RCC: Act II wrote:
Anaxagoras wrote:
RCC: Act II wrote:
Anaxagoras wrote:They're not claiming that it's legal, only "safe and secure".
They do, that is what the due diligence is referring to. Their big thing is that they've convinced PayPal and Facebook that it does not violate any gambling laws, and PayPal is pretty hardcore about that.

They base it on sweepstakes laws. This is why it is confusing. The short summary is that you aren't "depositing," you are purchasing their coins that are functionally internet play money. This part is clearly legal. As a "sweepstakes promotion" they also give the sweeps cash or whatever they call it. This makes the poker essentially a sweepstakes contest, and the prize is that they allow you to exchange this sweeps stuff for cash. That is the getting a bit cute part.

This model requires them to give entries (sweeps cash) to people that send them a letter asking for it, just like any other sweepstakes giveaway "no purchase required" provision. Which you can do.

It sounds absurd, but I can't spot the leak here. Apparently neither could PayPal.
oK, but that's not a straight answer to a yes or no question
Do they claim it is legal? Yes. They do.
Maybe, but not in the part quoted by Rob.

If it were legal there would be a one-word answer: Yes.
A fool thinks himself to be wise, but a wise man knows himself to be a fool.
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Re: Also: Anyone else messing with poker these days?

Post by gnome » Fri Dec 15, 2017 1:41 pm

I'm all but certain TTG focused more on immersion than hard core AI. That fits their style of game creation.
"If fighting is sure to result in victory, then you must fight! Sun Tzu said that, and I'd say he knows a little bit more about fighting than you do, pal, because he invented it, and then he perfected it so that no living man could best him in the ring of honor. Then, he used his fight money to buy two of every animal on earth, and then he herded them onto a boat, and then he beat the crap out of every single one. And from that day forward any time a bunch of animals are together in one place it's called a zoo! (Beat) Unless it's a farm!"
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Re: Also: Anyone else messing with poker these days?

Post by RCC: Act II » Fri Dec 15, 2017 2:51 pm

Anaxagoras wrote:
If it were legal there would be a one-word answer: Yes.
Given how heavily it is implied by everything they say, it is probably just poor writing that they didn't. They'd never be able to claim "but we never said it was legal" given what is written there.

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Re: Also: Anyone else messing with poker these days?

Post by gnome » Fri Dec 15, 2017 3:00 pm

Would such a claim do them any good even if they could plausibly say so?
"If fighting is sure to result in victory, then you must fight! Sun Tzu said that, and I'd say he knows a little bit more about fighting than you do, pal, because he invented it, and then he perfected it so that no living man could best him in the ring of honor. Then, he used his fight money to buy two of every animal on earth, and then he herded them onto a boat, and then he beat the crap out of every single one. And from that day forward any time a bunch of animals are together in one place it's called a zoo! (Beat) Unless it's a farm!"
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Re: Also: Anyone else messing with poker these days?

Post by Anaxagoras » Fri Dec 15, 2017 3:16 pm

Well, in Japan there is a longstanding way of gambling used by Pachinko parlors. The pachinko parlor itself does not give you any cash if you win. Only prizes. However, they give you some sort of medal in a little plastic case or something like that which you can take to a little window near the pachinko parlor, usually just a few steps away from the back exit, and they will give you cash for these.

It is very clearly gambling, yet this little ruse makes it legal. A bit like how casinos use chips instead of cash.
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Re: Also: Anyone else messing with poker these days?

Post by gnome » Fri Dec 15, 2017 3:25 pm

Interesting--so that little window is ostensibly a separate business willing to buy the medals?
"If fighting is sure to result in victory, then you must fight! Sun Tzu said that, and I'd say he knows a little bit more about fighting than you do, pal, because he invented it, and then he perfected it so that no living man could best him in the ring of honor. Then, he used his fight money to buy two of every animal on earth, and then he herded them onto a boat, and then he beat the crap out of every single one. And from that day forward any time a bunch of animals are together in one place it's called a zoo! (Beat) Unless it's a farm!"
--Soldier, TF2