Venezuela Meltdown

Lies, damned lies, and statistics.
User avatar
Grammatron
Posts: 29525
Joined: Tue Jun 08, 2004 1:21 am
Location: Los Angeles, CA
Been thanked: 902 times

Re: Venezuela Meltdown

Postby Grammatron » Mon Apr 17, 2017 5:25 pm

gnome wrote:An interesting perspective from an economist native to Venezuela:

WaPo: In Venezuela, we couldn’t stop Chávez. Don’t make the same mistakes we did.


I guess the Hitler-comparison well is dry so it's Chavez now.
pillory wrote:jokes aren't funny....seriously thinking......

seriously thinking might be funny....but it's not joke

User avatar
gnome
Posts: 19528
Joined: Tue Jun 29, 2004 12:40 am
Location: New Port Richey, FL
Has thanked: 190 times
Been thanked: 176 times

Re: Venezuela Meltdown

Postby gnome » Mon Apr 17, 2017 5:33 pm

In this case, less interested in whether Trump=Chavez, than whether the description of Venezuelan politics was correct.
"When people thought the Earth was flat, they were wrong. When people thought the Earth was spherical they were wrong. But if you think that thinking the Earth is spherical is just as wrong as thinking the Earth is flat, then your view is wronger than both of them put together."
--Isaac Asimov

User avatar
Grammatron
Posts: 29525
Joined: Tue Jun 08, 2004 1:21 am
Location: Los Angeles, CA
Been thanked: 902 times

Re: Venezuela Meltdown

Postby Grammatron » Mon Apr 17, 2017 5:37 pm

gnome wrote:In this case, less interested in whether Trump=Chavez, than whether the description of Venezuelan politics was correct.


I would say everything this gentleman writes is suspect because his premises are wrong.
pillory wrote:jokes aren't funny....seriously thinking......

seriously thinking might be funny....but it's not joke

User avatar
Abdul Alhazred
Posts: 63206
Joined: Mon Jun 07, 2004 1:33 pm
Title: Yes, that one.
Location: Chicago
Has thanked: 1310 times
Been thanked: 673 times

Re: Venezuela Meltdown

Postby Abdul Alhazred » Mon Apr 17, 2017 5:46 pm

Trump == Communist command economy?

I don't think so.
Image "If I turn in a sicko, will I get a reward?"

"Yes! A BIG REWARD!" ====> Click here to turn in a sicko
Any man writes a mission statement spends a night in the box.
-- our mission statement

User avatar
Abdul Alhazred
Posts: 63206
Joined: Mon Jun 07, 2004 1:33 pm
Title: Yes, that one.
Location: Chicago
Has thanked: 1310 times
Been thanked: 673 times

Re: Venezuela Meltdown

Postby Abdul Alhazred » Mon Apr 17, 2017 5:47 pm

Anyone compare Trump to Pinochet yet?

How about Idi Amin?
Image "If I turn in a sicko, will I get a reward?"

"Yes! A BIG REWARD!" ====> Click here to turn in a sicko
Any man writes a mission statement spends a night in the box.
-- our mission statement

User avatar
Grammatron
Posts: 29525
Joined: Tue Jun 08, 2004 1:21 am
Location: Los Angeles, CA
Been thanked: 902 times

Re: Venezuela Meltdown

Postby Grammatron » Mon Apr 17, 2017 5:49 pm

Abdul Alhazred wrote:Trump == Communist command economy?

I don't think so.


In fairness, that's not the threads the author tries to connect. However, the claim that Trump is riding a populist wave to mold the country into something different is without base and requires quite a bit of mental gymnastics.
pillory wrote:jokes aren't funny....seriously thinking......

seriously thinking might be funny....but it's not joke

User avatar
gnome
Posts: 19528
Joined: Tue Jun 29, 2004 12:40 am
Location: New Port Richey, FL
Has thanked: 190 times
Been thanked: 176 times

Re: Venezuela Meltdown

Postby gnome » Mon Apr 17, 2017 6:11 pm

They might have been spot on about how ineptly the opposition confronted Trump, however.
"When people thought the Earth was flat, they were wrong. When people thought the Earth was spherical they were wrong. But if you think that thinking the Earth is spherical is just as wrong as thinking the Earth is flat, then your view is wronger than both of them put together."

--Isaac Asimov

User avatar
Grammatron
Posts: 29525
Joined: Tue Jun 08, 2004 1:21 am
Location: Los Angeles, CA
Been thanked: 902 times

Re: Venezuela Meltdown

Postby Grammatron » Mon Apr 17, 2017 6:16 pm

gnome wrote:They might have been spot on about how ineptly the opposition confronted Trump, however.


To me that seems to be a case of counting hits and ignoring misses. But even then, the opposition was more arrogant than inept.
pillory wrote:jokes aren't funny....seriously thinking......

seriously thinking might be funny....but it's not joke

User avatar
WildCat
Posts: 11661
Joined: Tue Jun 15, 2004 2:53 am
Location: The 33rd Ward, Chicago
Has thanked: 15 times
Been thanked: 152 times

Re: Venezuela Meltdown

Postby WildCat » Mon Apr 17, 2017 6:42 pm

Bernie Sanders is a populist too, but that's different because reasons.
Do you have questions about God?

you sniveling little right-wing nutter - jj

User avatar
gnome
Posts: 19528
Joined: Tue Jun 29, 2004 12:40 am
Location: New Port Richey, FL
Has thanked: 190 times
Been thanked: 176 times

Re: Venezuela Meltdown

Postby gnome » Mon Apr 17, 2017 6:44 pm

I don't think populism by itself is automatically bad--the way I'd distinguish is whether it is used to harness people's worst tendencies.

Interpretation of specific cases may vary of course, but I think the point stands.
"When people thought the Earth was flat, they were wrong. When people thought the Earth was spherical they were wrong. But if you think that thinking the Earth is spherical is just as wrong as thinking the Earth is flat, then your view is wronger than both of them put together."

--Isaac Asimov

User avatar
WildCat
Posts: 11661
Joined: Tue Jun 15, 2004 2:53 am
Location: The 33rd Ward, Chicago
Has thanked: 15 times
Been thanked: 152 times

Re: Venezuela Meltdown

Postby WildCat » Mon Apr 17, 2017 6:58 pm

gnome wrote:I don't think populism by itself is automatically bad--the way I'd distinguish is whether it is used to harness people's worst tendencies.

Interpretation of specific cases may vary of course, but I think the point stands.

Chavez was a populist that believed in Socialism, demonized corporations, demonized Capitalism, and worked to restrict freedom of speech and freedom of the press. Bernie is a populist that believes in Socialism, demonizes corporations, demonizes capitalism, and introduced an Amendment that would gut the 1st Amendment.

So what makes Trump more like Chavez than Sanders?
Do you have questions about God?

you sniveling little right-wing nutter - jj

User avatar
Grammatron
Posts: 29525
Joined: Tue Jun 08, 2004 1:21 am
Location: Los Angeles, CA
Been thanked: 902 times

Re: Venezuela Meltdown

Postby Grammatron » Mon Apr 17, 2017 7:03 pm

WildCat wrote:
gnome wrote:I don't think populism by itself is automatically bad--the way I'd distinguish is whether it is used to harness people's worst tendencies.

Interpretation of specific cases may vary of course, but I think the point stands.

Chavez was a populist that believed in Socialism, demonized corporations, demonized Capitalism, and worked to restrict freedom of speech and freedom of the press. Bernie is a populist that believes in Socialism, demonizes corporations, demonizes capitalism, and introduced an Amendment that would gut the 1st Amendment.

So what makes Trump more like Chavez than Sanders?


Well it's in the article.
pillory wrote:jokes aren't funny....seriously thinking......

seriously thinking might be funny....but it's not joke

User avatar
gnome
Posts: 19528
Joined: Tue Jun 29, 2004 12:40 am
Location: New Port Richey, FL
Has thanked: 190 times
Been thanked: 176 times

Re: Venezuela Meltdown

Postby gnome » Mon Apr 17, 2017 7:04 pm

Short answer: Because the toxicity of a particular example of populism is not directly connected to the ideology chosen.

If I propose to strengthen our military because my expert panel determined key points of vulnerability, that isn't the same as proposing to strengthen our military because Canadians are evil.
"When people thought the Earth was flat, they were wrong. When people thought the Earth was spherical they were wrong. But if you think that thinking the Earth is spherical is just as wrong as thinking the Earth is flat, then your view is wronger than both of them put together."

--Isaac Asimov

User avatar
WildCat
Posts: 11661
Joined: Tue Jun 15, 2004 2:53 am
Location: The 33rd Ward, Chicago
Has thanked: 15 times
Been thanked: 152 times

Re: Venezuela Meltdown

Postby WildCat » Mon Apr 17, 2017 7:10 pm

Grammatron wrote:
WildCat wrote:
gnome wrote:I don't think populism by itself is automatically bad--the way I'd distinguish is whether it is used to harness people's worst tendencies.

Interpretation of specific cases may vary of course, but I think the point stands.

Chavez was a populist that believed in Socialism, demonized corporations, demonized Capitalism, and worked to restrict freedom of speech and freedom of the press. Bernie is a populist that believes in Socialism, demonizes corporations, demonizes capitalism, and introduced an Amendment that would gut the 1st Amendment.

So what makes Trump more like Chavez than Sanders?


Well it's in the article.

The article is pretty weak sauce based on a narrative that simply isn't true. Like the one that Trump is Putin's BFF. Obama spent over 4 years trying to coddle up to Putin and convince him we had common interests, Trump gave up on him after a few months. And the only people doing the dividing are the Democrats and their media wing, not Trump himself.
Do you have questions about God?

you sniveling little right-wing nutter - jj

User avatar
Anaxagoras
Posts: 17369
Joined: Wed Mar 19, 2008 5:45 am
Location: Yokohama/Tokyo, Japan
Has thanked: 918 times
Been thanked: 657 times

Re: Venezuela Meltdown

Postby Anaxagoras » Tue Apr 18, 2017 3:18 am

Previously, someone in the National Review compared both Trump and Sanders to Chavez:

The Donald/Bernie Show: Shades of Hugo Chávez

Does this sound familiar? “They wanted something new, something fresh, and they found in this man a radical discourse. He said he would get rid forever of the old elites.”

Or this: “He ran as the outsider, the non-politician in a country which had come to distrust politicians. The media loved him, and he loved them back. . . . They gave him huge amounts of newspaper space and hours on television.”

Or this: “He can be funny. He can seem buffoonish. He obeys none of the rules for what is expected of a head of state, or for that matter, a public official on television.”

These are not, as you may have guessed, quotes about Donald Trump, but about the late Hugo Chávez of Venezuela — tribune of the people and scourge of the establishment.

Looking back at him now he seems a perfect laboratory mixture of Donald Trump and Bernie Sanders. He died of cancer before witnessing the ruin he brought down on Venezuela. His handpicked successor, Nicolas Maduro, is presiding over that train wreck now.

Read more at: http://www.nationalreview.com/article/4 ... two-halves


Probably some cherry-picking is involved.
A fool thinks himself to be wise, but a wise man knows himself to be a fool.
William Shakespeare

User avatar
Doctor X
Posts: 61560
Joined: Fri Jun 04, 2004 8:09 pm
Title: Collective Messiah
Location: Your Mom
Has thanked: 2261 times
Been thanked: 1408 times

Re: Venezuela Meltdown

Postby Doctor X » Tue Apr 18, 2017 4:01 am

Well, two windy politicians with promises they had no idea how to keep. Actually, at least Trump could build The Wall, cut this, destroy Obamacare, and maybe, at worse, royally fuck up.

Bernie?

He could not even afford one program, but he could destroy the economy and possibly the country.

--J.D.
Mob of the Mean: Free beanie, cattle-prod and Charley Fan Club!
"Doctor X is just treating you the way he treats everyone--as subhuman crap too dumb to breathe in after you breathe out."--Don
DocX: FTW.--sparks
"Doctor X wins again."--Pyrrho
"It was the criticisms of Doc X, actually, that let me see more clearly how far the hypocrisy had gone."--clarsct
"I'd leave it up to Doctor X who has been a benevolent tyrant so far."--Grammatron
"Indeed you are a river to your people.

Shit. That's going to end up in your sig."--Pyrrho

ImageWS CHAMPIONS X3!!! NBA CHAMPIONS!! ImageStanley Cup!Image SB CHAMPIONS X5!!!!! Image

User avatar
Anaxagoras
Posts: 17369
Joined: Wed Mar 19, 2008 5:45 am
Location: Yokohama/Tokyo, Japan
Has thanked: 918 times
Been thanked: 657 times

Re: Venezuela Meltdown

Postby Anaxagoras » Thu Apr 20, 2017 10:53 pm

Now they've started seizing factories:

http://money.cnn.com/2017/04/20/news/gm ... nt-seized/
A fool thinks himself to be wise, but a wise man knows himself to be a fool.
William Shakespeare

User avatar
Doctor X
Posts: 61560
Joined: Fri Jun 04, 2004 8:09 pm
Title: Collective Messiah
Location: Your Mom
Has thanked: 2261 times
Been thanked: 1408 times

Re: Venezuela Meltdown

Postby Doctor X » Fri Apr 21, 2017 6:46 am

This is what you get for outsourcing our jobs!

Very sad!

--The Donald


--J.D.
Mob of the Mean: Free beanie, cattle-prod and Charley Fan Club!
"Doctor X is just treating you the way he treats everyone--as subhuman crap too dumb to breathe in after you breathe out."--Don
DocX: FTW.--sparks
"Doctor X wins again."--Pyrrho
"It was the criticisms of Doc X, actually, that let me see more clearly how far the hypocrisy had gone."--clarsct
"I'd leave it up to Doctor X who has been a benevolent tyrant so far."--Grammatron
"Indeed you are a river to your people.

Shit. That's going to end up in your sig."--Pyrrho

ImageWS CHAMPIONS X3!!! NBA CHAMPIONS!! ImageStanley Cup!Image SB CHAMPIONS X5!!!!! Image

User avatar
Abdul Alhazred
Posts: 63206
Joined: Mon Jun 07, 2004 1:33 pm
Title: Yes, that one.
Location: Chicago
Has thanked: 1310 times
Been thanked: 673 times

Re: Venezuela Meltdown

Postby Abdul Alhazred » Fri Apr 21, 2017 1:47 pm

I'm sure the factories will be more productive than ever, now that the profits will be distributed fairly. :)
Image "If I turn in a sicko, will I get a reward?"

"Yes! A BIG REWARD!" ====> Click here to turn in a sicko
Any man writes a mission statement spends a night in the box.
-- our mission statement

User avatar
Anaxagoras
Posts: 17369
Joined: Wed Mar 19, 2008 5:45 am
Location: Yokohama/Tokyo, Japan
Has thanked: 918 times
Been thanked: 657 times

Re: Venezuela Meltdown

Postby Anaxagoras » Tue May 09, 2017 6:14 am

It has gotten really bad there. People literally starving in some cases, hospitals that have no supplies, etc. People are dying now. Meanwhile the president simply denies the reality. Oh, and he wants to rewrite the constitution. That's always a good sign.

Socialism: The View from Venezuela

Now, it may not be totally fair to blame all of Venezuela's problems on "socialism". Rather, it is the specific policies of the government, which for too long has behaved like the grasshopper in the fable about the ant and the grasshopper, spending now, not saving anything for a rainy day, allowing the country to become too reliant on oil exports and allowing other sectors of the economy to just go to rot. It's populist socialism plus corruption.

For example, compare to Norway, which also has some socialist tendencies. It is like night and day. Norway invested its oil profits when times were good in a sovereign wealth fund, which returns dividends. Venezuela spent it all on giving things away (even in some cases to Americans, but also to neighbors in Latin America). In Venezuela itself, gasoline was practically free, pennies per gallon; less than what it cost to produce. Maybe if oil prices today were still over $100/bbl they might be able to get away with it, but it isn't.
A fool thinks himself to be wise, but a wise man knows himself to be a fool.
William Shakespeare


Return to “Politics & Social Issues”

Who is online

Users browsing this forum: CCBot [Bot], Ultron [AI] and 0 guests