Venezuela Meltdown

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Re: Venezuela Meltdown

Postby Grammatron » Mon Apr 17, 2017 5:25 pm

gnome wrote:An interesting perspective from an economist native to Venezuela:

WaPo: In Venezuela, we couldn’t stop Chávez. Don’t make the same mistakes we did.


I guess the Hitler-comparison well is dry so it's Chavez now.
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Re: Venezuela Meltdown

Postby gnome » Mon Apr 17, 2017 5:33 pm

In this case, less interested in whether Trump=Chavez, than whether the description of Venezuelan politics was correct.
"If fighting is sure to result in victory, then you must fight! Sun Tzu said that, and I'd say he knows a little bit more about fighting than you do, pal, because he invented it, and then he perfected it so that no living man could best him in the ring of honor. Then, he used his fight money to buy two of every animal on earth, and then he herded them onto a boat, and then he beat the crap out of every single one. And from that day forward any time a bunch of animals are together in one place it's called a zoo! (Beat) Unless it's a farm!"
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Re: Venezuela Meltdown

Postby Grammatron » Mon Apr 17, 2017 5:37 pm

gnome wrote:In this case, less interested in whether Trump=Chavez, than whether the description of Venezuelan politics was correct.


I would say everything this gentleman writes is suspect because his premises are wrong.
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Re: Venezuela Meltdown

Postby Abdul Alhazred » Mon Apr 17, 2017 5:46 pm

Trump == Communist command economy?

I don't think so.
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Re: Venezuela Meltdown

Postby Abdul Alhazred » Mon Apr 17, 2017 5:47 pm

Anyone compare Trump to Pinochet yet?

How about Idi Amin?
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Re: Venezuela Meltdown

Postby Grammatron » Mon Apr 17, 2017 5:49 pm

Abdul Alhazred wrote:Trump == Communist command economy?

I don't think so.


In fairness, that's not the threads the author tries to connect. However, the claim that Trump is riding a populist wave to mold the country into something different is without base and requires quite a bit of mental gymnastics.
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Re: Venezuela Meltdown

Postby gnome » Mon Apr 17, 2017 6:11 pm

They might have been spot on about how ineptly the opposition confronted Trump, however.
"If fighting is sure to result in victory, then you must fight! Sun Tzu said that, and I'd say he knows a little bit more about fighting than you do, pal, because he invented it, and then he perfected it so that no living man could best him in the ring of honor. Then, he used his fight money to buy two of every animal on earth, and then he herded them onto a boat, and then he beat the crap out of every single one. And from that day forward any time a bunch of animals are together in one place it's called a zoo! (Beat) Unless it's a farm!"
--Soldier, TF2

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Re: Venezuela Meltdown

Postby Grammatron » Mon Apr 17, 2017 6:16 pm

gnome wrote:They might have been spot on about how ineptly the opposition confronted Trump, however.


To me that seems to be a case of counting hits and ignoring misses. But even then, the opposition was more arrogant than inept.
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Re: Venezuela Meltdown

Postby WildCat » Mon Apr 17, 2017 6:42 pm

Bernie Sanders is a populist too, but that's different because reasons.
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Re: Venezuela Meltdown

Postby gnome » Mon Apr 17, 2017 6:44 pm

I don't think populism by itself is automatically bad--the way I'd distinguish is whether it is used to harness people's worst tendencies.

Interpretation of specific cases may vary of course, but I think the point stands.
"If fighting is sure to result in victory, then you must fight! Sun Tzu said that, and I'd say he knows a little bit more about fighting than you do, pal, because he invented it, and then he perfected it so that no living man could best him in the ring of honor. Then, he used his fight money to buy two of every animal on earth, and then he herded them onto a boat, and then he beat the crap out of every single one. And from that day forward any time a bunch of animals are together in one place it's called a zoo! (Beat) Unless it's a farm!"
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Re: Venezuela Meltdown

Postby WildCat » Mon Apr 17, 2017 6:58 pm

gnome wrote:I don't think populism by itself is automatically bad--the way I'd distinguish is whether it is used to harness people's worst tendencies.

Interpretation of specific cases may vary of course, but I think the point stands.

Chavez was a populist that believed in Socialism, demonized corporations, demonized Capitalism, and worked to restrict freedom of speech and freedom of the press. Bernie is a populist that believes in Socialism, demonizes corporations, demonizes capitalism, and introduced an Amendment that would gut the 1st Amendment.

So what makes Trump more like Chavez than Sanders?
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Re: Venezuela Meltdown

Postby Grammatron » Mon Apr 17, 2017 7:03 pm

WildCat wrote:
gnome wrote:I don't think populism by itself is automatically bad--the way I'd distinguish is whether it is used to harness people's worst tendencies.

Interpretation of specific cases may vary of course, but I think the point stands.

Chavez was a populist that believed in Socialism, demonized corporations, demonized Capitalism, and worked to restrict freedom of speech and freedom of the press. Bernie is a populist that believes in Socialism, demonizes corporations, demonizes capitalism, and introduced an Amendment that would gut the 1st Amendment.

So what makes Trump more like Chavez than Sanders?


Well it's in the article.
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Re: Venezuela Meltdown

Postby gnome » Mon Apr 17, 2017 7:04 pm

Short answer: Because the toxicity of a particular example of populism is not directly connected to the ideology chosen.

If I propose to strengthen our military because my expert panel determined key points of vulnerability, that isn't the same as proposing to strengthen our military because Canadians are evil.
"If fighting is sure to result in victory, then you must fight! Sun Tzu said that, and I'd say he knows a little bit more about fighting than you do, pal, because he invented it, and then he perfected it so that no living man could best him in the ring of honor. Then, he used his fight money to buy two of every animal on earth, and then he herded them onto a boat, and then he beat the crap out of every single one. And from that day forward any time a bunch of animals are together in one place it's called a zoo! (Beat) Unless it's a farm!"
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Re: Venezuela Meltdown

Postby WildCat » Mon Apr 17, 2017 7:10 pm

Grammatron wrote:
WildCat wrote:
gnome wrote:I don't think populism by itself is automatically bad--the way I'd distinguish is whether it is used to harness people's worst tendencies.

Interpretation of specific cases may vary of course, but I think the point stands.

Chavez was a populist that believed in Socialism, demonized corporations, demonized Capitalism, and worked to restrict freedom of speech and freedom of the press. Bernie is a populist that believes in Socialism, demonizes corporations, demonizes capitalism, and introduced an Amendment that would gut the 1st Amendment.

So what makes Trump more like Chavez than Sanders?


Well it's in the article.

The article is pretty weak sauce based on a narrative that simply isn't true. Like the one that Trump is Putin's BFF. Obama spent over 4 years trying to coddle up to Putin and convince him we had common interests, Trump gave up on him after a few months. And the only people doing the dividing are the Democrats and their media wing, not Trump himself.
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Re: Venezuela Meltdown

Postby Anaxagoras » Tue Apr 18, 2017 3:18 am

Previously, someone in the National Review compared both Trump and Sanders to Chavez:

The Donald/Bernie Show: Shades of Hugo Chávez

Does this sound familiar? “They wanted something new, something fresh, and they found in this man a radical discourse. He said he would get rid forever of the old elites.”

Or this: “He ran as the outsider, the non-politician in a country which had come to distrust politicians. The media loved him, and he loved them back. . . . They gave him huge amounts of newspaper space and hours on television.”

Or this: “He can be funny. He can seem buffoonish. He obeys none of the rules for what is expected of a head of state, or for that matter, a public official on television.”

These are not, as you may have guessed, quotes about Donald Trump, but about the late Hugo Chávez of Venezuela — tribune of the people and scourge of the establishment.

Looking back at him now he seems a perfect laboratory mixture of Donald Trump and Bernie Sanders. He died of cancer before witnessing the ruin he brought down on Venezuela. His handpicked successor, Nicolas Maduro, is presiding over that train wreck now.

Read more at: http://www.nationalreview.com/article/4 ... two-halves


Probably some cherry-picking is involved.
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Re: Venezuela Meltdown

Postby Doctor X » Tue Apr 18, 2017 4:01 am

Well, two windy politicians with promises they had no idea how to keep. Actually, at least Trump could build The Wall, cut this, destroy Obamacare, and maybe, at worse, royally fuck up.

Bernie?

He could not even afford one program, but he could destroy the economy and possibly the country.

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Re: Venezuela Meltdown

Postby Anaxagoras » Thu Apr 20, 2017 10:53 pm

Now they've started seizing factories:

http://money.cnn.com/2017/04/20/news/gm ... nt-seized/
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Re: Venezuela Meltdown

Postby Doctor X » Fri Apr 21, 2017 6:46 am

This is what you get for outsourcing our jobs!

Very sad!

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Re: Venezuela Meltdown

Postby Abdul Alhazred » Fri Apr 21, 2017 1:47 pm

I'm sure the factories will be more productive than ever, now that the profits will be distributed fairly. :)
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Re: Venezuela Meltdown

Postby Anaxagoras » Tue May 09, 2017 6:14 am

It has gotten really bad there. People literally starving in some cases, hospitals that have no supplies, etc. People are dying now. Meanwhile the president simply denies the reality. Oh, and he wants to rewrite the constitution. That's always a good sign.

Socialism: The View from Venezuela

Now, it may not be totally fair to blame all of Venezuela's problems on "socialism". Rather, it is the specific policies of the government, which for too long has behaved like the grasshopper in the fable about the ant and the grasshopper, spending now, not saving anything for a rainy day, allowing the country to become too reliant on oil exports and allowing other sectors of the economy to just go to rot. It's populist socialism plus corruption.

For example, compare to Norway, which also has some socialist tendencies. It is like night and day. Norway invested its oil profits when times were good in a sovereign wealth fund, which returns dividends. Venezuela spent it all on giving things away (even in some cases to Americans, but also to neighbors in Latin America). In Venezuela itself, gasoline was practically free, pennies per gallon; less than what it cost to produce. Maybe if oil prices today were still over $100/bbl they might be able to get away with it, but it isn't.
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