Media Navel Gazing

Lies, damned lies, and statistics.
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Re: Media Navel Gazing

Postby Doctor X » Mon Jul 17, 2017 8:41 pm

Meanwhile, apparently "Joe 'n Mika" had serial and disgraced plagiarist Mike Barnackle and that paragon of honesty Bryan "Throat Cutter" Williams to decry the honesty and integrity of the Trump Administration. . . .

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Re: Media Navel Gazing

Postby Grammatron » Mon Jul 17, 2017 8:49 pm

Mentat wrote:That members of Trump's campaign were aware of Russia's active support for them, that members had been misleading about the number and nature of meetings with foreign officials, and the involvement of Russia with various social and cyber attacks against the US (and unrelated, France) regarding the election.


And the factual basis for all that is...?
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Re: Media Navel Gazing

Postby Mentat » Mon Jul 17, 2017 9:06 pm

For example, Junior's emails are public. As for fancy bear, 4chan, and wikileaks getting compromised material through russian efforts, that was documented in the french election. Another example is an attack to compromise a voting machine vendor. As an aside, fuck voting machines.
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Re: Media Navel Gazing

Postby Grammatron » Mon Jul 17, 2017 9:14 pm

Mentat wrote:For example, Junior's emails are public. As for fancy bear, 4chan, and wikileaks getting compromised material through russian efforts, that was documented in the french election. Another example is an attack to compromise a voting machine vendor. As an aside, fuck voting machines.


Junior went to a meeting that purported to display evidence of Hillary colluding with Russia.

We can't rely on any information about Russia hacking DNC because DNC never allowed their hardware to be examined by the FBI.

As for Russia attempting to hack a voting machine vendor, how does any of that relate to Trump?
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Re: Media Navel Gazing

Postby corplinx » Mon Jul 17, 2017 9:19 pm

OH, SO NOW YOU DON"T THINK RUSSHUH TRIED TO INFLUENCE THE ELECTIOn?!?!?!

(because there is zero evidence to even back a suspicion that Trump colluded with the Russian Government)

That's Facebook Logic (tm) in a nutshell.

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Re: Media Navel Gazing

Postby Doctor X » Mon Jul 17, 2017 9:23 pm

We of COURSE they scrubbed the evidences!

You are welcome!

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Re: Media Navel Gazing

Postby Mentat » Mon Jul 17, 2017 9:45 pm

Junior went to a meeting that purported to display evidence of Hillary colluding with Russia.

Why wasn't the nature of this meeting disclosed? As somebody of strange odor recently said, "It is the job of every politician to turn a rival's paper cut into a disembowelment." And yet, it was in response to investigative journalism that the true nature of this meeting was released to the public.

We can't rely on any information about Russia hacking DNC because DNC never allowed their hardware to be examined by the FBI.

Which is why I posted the French hacking story, because it's highly similar to the DNC, doesn't involve democrat/republican partisanship, and we have proof of Russian personnel involved. We even have names. The DNC won't release their hardware probably because they have shady ass shit on there. But that has nothing to do with the evidence we've seen so far. Russia got caught trying to illegally flip an election towards She-Trump. Using the same tactics we saw in our election. If that isn't suspicious as hell, then I don't know what to say.

As for Russia attempting to hack a voting machine vendor, how does any of that relate to Trump?

Evidence for my last statement in the previous reply, that you asked for. There was a lot of cyber-related activity involving propaganda dissemination and hacking; this was just an example I found first.


It's still an ongoing investigation into these matters, and there's a good deal none of us are yet privy.
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Re: Media Navel Gazing

Postby Grammatron » Mon Jul 17, 2017 10:02 pm

Mentat wrote:Why wasn't the nature of this meeting disclosed? As somebody of strange odor recently said, "It is the job of every politician to turn a rival's paper cut into a disembowelment." And yet, it was in response to investigative journalism that the true nature of this meeting was released to the public.

The whole thing is embarrassing and amateurish, that's why they did not publicize it. But the true nature is of potential evidence of Hillary colluding with Russia.

We can't rely on any information about Russia hacking DNC because DNC never allowed their hardware to be examined by the FBI.

Which is why I posted the French hacking story, because it's highly similar to the DNC...[snip]

How can you say it's similar when we don't have any evidence that DNC was hacked?
As for Russia attempting to hack a voting machine vendor, how does any of that relate to Trump?

Evidence for my last statement in the previous reply, that you asked for. There was a lot of cyber-related activity involving propaganda dissemination and hacking; this was just an example I found first.

There's 0 evidence that the voting machine software or machine themselves were compromised. President Obama made it a point in one of the press conference to explain that the decentralized nature of USA elections systems makes such hacking impossible.
It's still an ongoing investigation into these matters, and there's a good deal none of us are yet privy.

Being investigated does not make one guilty.
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Re: Media Navel Gazing

Postby WildCat » Mon Jul 17, 2017 10:04 pm

Mentat wrote:That members of Trump's campaign were aware of Russia's active support for them, that members had been misleading about the number and nature of meetings with foreign officials, and the involvement of Russia with various social and cyber attacks against the US (and unrelated, France) regarding the election.

Provide specific examples, and the legal theory as to why it was illegal including the statute which is alleged to have been broken.
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Re: Media Navel Gazing

Postby Mentat » Mon Jul 17, 2017 10:44 pm

You [gram] asked for evidence of the particular accusations I enumerated. As a reminder, what I posted was evidence for those particular accusations. Not for other accusations.

How can you say it's similar when we don't have any evidence that DNC was hacked?


The similarities calculated timing of the release to maximize political damage, the publishing to 4chan and wikileaks under the guise of an anonymous user, the targeting of a frontrunner opponent of a populist politician (populists who attack NATO, the EU, and who sweettalk Russia, mind you). As for the hacks, I'm going with the CIA's assessment that the wikileaks obtained the information from russian affiliates, as opposed to from a leaker. Now, it is possible that it still wasn't a hack, that the info was leaked to russian affiliates who then passed it on, but that still involves wikileaks lying, but with more steps.

There's 0 evidence that the voting machine software or machine themselves were compromised. President Obama made it a point in one of the press conference to explain that the decentralized nature of USA elections systems makes such hacking impossible.


I didn't say the machines were, although I still don't like them. Again, you asked for evidence about one of my claims (a Russian cyber attack against the US), and this was the first example that I had off the top of my head. One that isn't controversial that it happened.

Being investigated does not make one guilty.

I didn't say so. I didn't say anybody's guilty. Except Putin. My whole argument is that this Russia thing is a huge concern even without collusion. I doubt most of Trump's team committed anything seriously illegal, but if you couldn't fill a teaspoon with their combined integrity.
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Re: Media Navel Gazing

Postby Mentat » Mon Jul 17, 2017 10:49 pm

WildCat wrote:
Mentat wrote:That members of Trump's campaign were aware of Russia's active support for them, that members had been misleading about the number and nature of meetings with foreign officials, and the involvement of Russia with various social and cyber attacks against the US (and unrelated, France) regarding the election.

Provide specific examples, and the legal theory as to why it was illegal including the statute which is alleged to have been broken.


I am not throwing accusations of illegality right now. That's for acronymed agencies to figure out.
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Re: Media Navel Gazing

Postby Grammatron » Mon Jul 17, 2017 10:58 pm

Mentat wrote:As for the hacks, I'm going with the CIA's assessment that the wikileaks obtained the information from russian affiliates, as opposed to from a leaker.


Official CIA assessment that CIA arrived at without having access to DNC servers? Where can I read it?
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Re: Media Navel Gazing

Postby Rob Lister » Mon Jul 17, 2017 10:59 pm

And what that amounts to, Mentat, is that the Media is now demanding that Trump Jr lose his security clearance for not specifying [this] said meeting on his disclosure. I say that because I'm now watching network TV on Antenna News and that's the whole scoop. There's really nothing else to it.

I'd personally like to see the Trump Sr fuckwad impeached and Pence take the helm. But I don't like Pence much better. Really, you can't impeach enough to make me happy. You'd have to get down to the guy that calls the roll. I might find something wrong with him too. He sounds a bit gay. Had Hillary won, I'd move to France and open a Hotdog and Freedom Fry stand.

I'd probably be a millionaire by now. How is that even a word? Thousandaire isn't.

But the media has moved on. Now they're talking about a wedding dress store that closed leaving dozens in the dirt that have to get married naked or something.

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Re: Media Navel Gazing

Postby Mentat » Mon Jul 17, 2017 11:16 pm

Grammatron wrote:
Mentat wrote:As for the hacks, I'm going with the CIA's assessment that the wikileaks obtained the information from russian affiliates, as opposed to from a leaker.


Official CIA assessment that CIA arrived at without having access to DNC servers? Where can I read it?


It was during one of the senate committee hearings. Accordingly, the information wikileaks acquired was from Russia, not a leaker. The details of how they knew this were not made public, as it is sensitive intelligence.

Here's a transcript from the Clapper hearing:
JAMES R. CLAPPER wrote:The Russians used cyber operations against both political parties, including hacking into servers used by the Democratic National Committee and releasing stolen data to WikiLeaks and other media outlets. Russia also collected on certain Republican Party- affiliated targets, but did not release any Republican-related data. The Intelligence Community Assessment concluded first that President Putin directed and influenced campaign to erode the faith and confidence of the American people in our presidential election process. Second, that he did so to demean Secretary Clinton, and third, that he sought to advantage Mr. Trump. These conclusions were reached based on the richness of the information gathered and analyzed and were thoroughly vetted and then approved by the directors of the three agencies and me.


The three agencies being the NSA, CIA, and FBI.
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Re: Media Navel Gazing

Postby Mentat » Mon Jul 17, 2017 11:26 pm

Rob Lister wrote:I'd personally like to see the Trump Sr fuckwad impeached and Pence take the helm. But I don't like Pence much better. Really, you can't impeach enough to make me happy. You'd have to get down to the guy that calls the roll. I might find something wrong with him too. He sounds a bit gay.


You don't want him, he's probably an intern. All they'll do is push for $20 minimum wage and free weed.
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Re: Media Navel Gazing

Postby Grammatron » Mon Jul 17, 2017 11:37 pm

Mentat wrote:
Grammatron wrote:
Mentat wrote:As for the hacks, I'm going with the CIA's assessment that the wikileaks obtained the information from russian affiliates, as opposed to from a leaker.


Official CIA assessment that CIA arrived at without having access to DNC servers? Where can I read it?


It was during one of the senate committee hearings. Accordingly, the information wikileaks acquired was from Russia, not a leaker. The details of how they knew this were not made public, as it is sensitive intelligence.

Here's a transcript from the Clapper hearing:
JAMES R. CLAPPER wrote:The Russians used cyber operations against both political parties,including hacking into servers used by the Democratic National Committee and releasing stolen data to WikiLeaks and other media outlets. Russia also collected on certain Republican Party- affiliated targets, but did not release any Republican-related data. The Intelligence Community Assessment concluded first that President Putin directed and influenced campaign to erode the faith and confidence of the American people in our presidential election process. Second, that he did so to demean Secretary Clinton, and third, that he sought to advantage Mr. Trump. These conclusions were reached based on the richness of the information gathered and analyzed and were thoroughly vetted and then approved by the directors of the three agencies and me.


The three agencies being the NSA, CIA, and FBI.


I highlighted the part that puts the rest of the statement in suspect. Because, once again, DNC did not let any government agency examine their servers so there exists no evidence that would show that hacking took place, much less who would have done it.
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Re: Media Navel Gazing

Postby Rob Lister » Mon Jul 17, 2017 11:37 pm

Mentat wrote:
Rob Lister wrote:I'd personally like to see the Trump Sr fuckwad impeached and Pence take the helm. But I don't like Pence much better. Really, you can't impeach enough to make me happy. You'd have to get down to the guy that calls the roll. I might find something wrong with him too. He sounds a bit gay.


You don't want him, he's probably an intern. All they'll do is push for $20 minimum wage and free weed.


The free weed I can deal with but if we pay him $20 an hour we'll have to pay the pages that too. The cost of good Rolls will go way up. We can automate that with smart cards or something.

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Re: Media Navel Gazing

Postby Mentat » Mon Jul 17, 2017 11:39 pm

Grammatron wrote:
Mentat wrote:
Grammatron wrote:
Mentat wrote:As for the hacks, I'm going with the CIA's assessment that the wikileaks obtained the information from russian affiliates, as opposed to from a leaker.


Official CIA assessment that CIA arrived at without having access to DNC servers? Where can I read it?


It was during one of the senate committee hearings. Accordingly, the information wikileaks acquired was from Russia, not a leaker. The details of how they knew this were not made public, as it is sensitive intelligence.

Here's a transcript from the Clapper hearing:
JAMES R. CLAPPER wrote:The Russians used cyber operations against both political parties,including hacking into servers used by the Democratic National Committee and releasing stolen data to WikiLeaks and other media outlets. Russia also collected on certain Republican Party- affiliated targets, but did not release any Republican-related data. The Intelligence Community Assessment concluded first that President Putin directed and influenced campaign to erode the faith and confidence of the American people in our presidential election process. Second, that he did so to demean Secretary Clinton, and third, that he sought to advantage Mr. Trump. These conclusions were reached based on the richness of the information gathered and analyzed and were thoroughly vetted and then approved by the directors of the three agencies and me.


The three agencies being the NSA, CIA, and FBI.


I highlighted the part that puts the rest of the statement in suspect. Because, once again, DNC did not let any government agency examine their servers so there exists no evidence that would show that hacking took place, much less who would have done it.


You don't trust the report from the intelligence agencies?
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Re: Media Navel Gazing

Postby Grammatron » Mon Jul 17, 2017 11:43 pm

Mentat wrote:You don't trust the report from the intelligence agencies?


I don't trust any report that is not based on factual evidence.

Moreover, Clapper himself lied before when he claimed that there was no mass digital surveillance.
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Re: Media Navel Gazing

Postby Anaxagoras » Tue Jul 18, 2017 12:01 am

Grammatron wrote:
Mentat wrote:
WildCat wrote:
Mentat wrote:Which allegation? There are many.

How many have a factual basis?


Some of them have a factual basis.


Such as?


Both Manafort and Flynn were acting as paid foreign agents. In the latter case at the same time as he was involved in Trump's campaign. He was paid half a million dollars to spread propaganda of the government of Turkey.
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