OK, what do we do with this one?

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OK, what do we do with this one?

Postby ed » Fri Nov 09, 2012 12:57 pm

I, like a lot of you, don't like seeing us with foreign entanglements. Easy to say whilst one is sitting on one's lard ass munching bon bons. But the adults do have to make decisions occasionally. My question is what do we do here? Recognizing, naturally, that this is a 50,000 foot view and probably little of the information necessary to make an informed decision is forthcoming.

Japan Seeks Tighter Pact With U.S. to Confront China

TOKYO — Japan’s defense minister, Satoshi Morimoto, said on Friday that he wants to revise his nation’s security alliance with the United States to place more emphasis on the threat from China to Japan’s southeastern islands.

Mr. Morimoto said he wants to update a set of guidelines that govern how the two allies’ militaries would cooperate during a crisis to include the potential for a maritime clash with China. Tensions between Japan and China have risen in recent months over contested islands in the East China Sea known as the Senkaku in Japan and Diaoyu in China.

In a sign of the emotions conjured by the territorial dispute, China has kept up the pressure on Japan by sending paramilitary ships into waters around the islands, which are Japanese controlled. On Friday, Japan’s Coast Guard said Chinese maritime surveillance ships had sailed into Japanese-claimed waters for the 21st consecutive day.

Mr. Morimoto did not specify exactly what changes he would seek in the agreement. He told reporters that he has already informed the United States of Japan’s desire to revisit the guidelines, and on Friday sent the vice minister of defense, Akihisa Nagashima, to Washington for talks.

Mr. Morimoto noted that the last time the United States and Japan changed the guidelines was in 1997, in response to tensions with North Korea over its nuclear program.

http://www.nytimes.com/2012/11/10/world/asia/japan-seeks-tighter-pact-with-us-to-confront-china.html?hp

Seems that is we bid Japan Sayonara they might well make a separate peace. Would that be good? Should we care? Do bon bons come from the far east? Can we avoid being entangled?
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Re: OK, what do we do with this one?

Postby Rob Lister » Fri Nov 09, 2012 1:13 pm

The solution here is not more entanglement, but untangling the entanglement begun on September 2, 1945. And if you read between the lines of what Morimoto is saying, that's what it boils down to. Efforts to that have been ongoing for more than a decade. He's just asking for more chain on his leash.

Let them rearm; that's the solution. The Japan Self-Defense Forces are fairly well equipped, but not really a global military force; not an autonomous force at all. They rely on us for that.

Cut the cord. Cut the chain. Let loose the dogs of war. :evil:
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Re: OK, what do we do with this one?

Postby ed » Fri Nov 09, 2012 1:15 pm

Sell them the arms ... hmmmmm ... <strokes chin> not bad, not bad. Maybe sell the Chinee some countermeasures too. :twisted:
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Re: OK, what do we do with this one?

Postby ed » Fri Nov 09, 2012 1:17 pm

The more likely outcome is that you have a Chinese-Japanese financial conglomerate to deal with. Worse than a war since wounded are more of a problem than the dead and there would be many fiscally wounded in that sort of conflict.
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Re: OK, what do we do with this one?

Postby Rob Lister » Fri Nov 09, 2012 1:24 pm

Within a decade, they'd be selling us arms.

ed wrote:The more likely outcome is that you have a Chinese-Japanese financial conglomerate to deal with. Worse than a war since wounded are more of a problem than the dead and there would be many fiscally wounded in that sort of conflict.


I suppose that could happen, but its a little like a financial conglomerate between Israel and Iran.

What does Anax have to say on the matter. As our on-site correspondent, we should hear his input.
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Re: OK, what do we do with this one?

Postby ed » Fri Nov 09, 2012 1:25 pm

Rob Lister wrote:Within a decade, they'd be selling us arms.

ed wrote:The more likely outcome is that you have a Chinese-Japanese financial conglomerate to deal with. Worse than a war since wounded are more of a problem than the dead and there would be many fiscally wounded in that sort of conflict.


I suppose that could happen, but its a little like a financial conglomerate between Israel and Iran.

What does Anax have to say on the matter. As our on-site correspondent, we should hear his input.


He's heading up negotiations with the Chinese.

BTW, when it comes to $ little is sacred.
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Re: OK, what do we do with this one?

Postby Anaxagoras » Sat Nov 10, 2012 2:56 am

Rob Lister wrote:The solution here is not more entanglement, but untangling the entanglement begun on September 2, 1945. And if you read between the lines of what Morimoto is saying, that's what it boils down to. Efforts to that have been ongoing for more than a decade. He's just asking for more chain on his leash.

Let them rearm; that's the solution. The Japan Self-Defense Forces are fairly well equipped, but not really a global military force; not an autonomous force at all. They rely on us for that.

Cut the cord. Cut the chain. Let loose the dogs of war. :evil:


There has been some talk here of amending the constitution to allow Japan to end the Self-Defense Forces charade and just have a normal military like every other country in the world.

The Japanese are internally conflicted about whether they really want more US help or not. When threatened by the Chinese suddenly they want our help, but at the same time there's lots of complaining about US bases, particularly in Okinawa. Well, the Southern Islands in question here are close to Okinawa and Okinawa would be the logical place to position forces to defend these islands.

That said, I don't think the US has taken a position on this territorial dispute. We are committed to defend Japan, but whether these uninhabited islands are a part of Japan or of China is a matter of dispute.

U.S. Sends Aircraft to Okinawa, Despite Fierce Opposition

TOKYO — The United States military sent the first batch of a sophisticated but accident-plagued new aircraft to an air base on Okinawa on Monday, going forward with its planned deployment despite unexpectedly fierce opposition by islanders and warnings that any crash could threaten the huge American military presence on the island.

The first six of the MV-22 Osprey aircraft arrived at Marine Corps Air Station Futenma, the Japanese Defense Ministry said. It said another six of the ungainly-looking aircraft were due to arrive this week at the base, in the center of the crowded city of Ginowan. The United States is counting on the deployment to serve as part of the Obama administration’s plan to increase the American military presence in the region and offset the growing strength of China and a nuclear-armed North Korea.

The Osprey — whose tilting rotors allow it to take off like a helicopter but fly like a fixed-wing aircraft — flies four times as far as the Vietnam-era helicopters it is replacing, putting the more than 15,000 Marines on Okinawa within reach of potential hot spots like Taiwan and a group of disputed islands in the East China Sea known as the Senkaku in Japan and the Diaoyu in China.

The Japanese government has backed the deployment, apparently at least partly out of hopes that it will help deter China’s recently assertive claims to those islands, which Japan controls. The United States Defense Department says it has displayed sensitivity to local feelings by delaying the Osprey deployment as long as possible.

However, both Washington and Tokyo are facing an unusually strong pushback from many of the 1.4 million residents on Okinawa, including a large demonstration and acts of civil disobedience of a sort not seen here in decades. A rally last month drew as many as 100,000 people, the largest anti-base demonstration on the island since a similar-size one that followed the rape of an Okinawan schoolgirl by three American servicemen in 1995.

On the surface, the outrage has been fueled by concerns about the safety of the aircraft, which had a troubled development and suffered two crashes earlier this year. In the lobby of the Ginowan City Hall, a large display warned of the risks by describing a 1959 crash by an American jet that killed 17 people, including 11 schoolchildren.

But Okinawan political leaders and analysts said the issue had become a lightning rod for deeper grievances over how Washington and Tokyo have imposed what islanders see as an excessive base burden on this tropical island.


ed wrote:The more likely outcome is that you have a Chinese-Japanese financial conglomerate to deal with. Worse than a war since wounded are more of a problem than the dead and there would be many fiscally wounded in that sort of conflict.


Don't see that happening. These are two countries that really do not like each other (or at least there are significant elements in both countries that hate the other; there are also some Japanese who don't hate China and some Chinese who don't hate Japan). On the whole, Japanese people are much more pro-American than pro-Chinese.

There is a lot of trade between the two countries, but the recent tensions have hurt that.

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-asia-19614800

Anti-Japanese protests spread to cities across China on Saturday in an escalating row over disputed islands in the East China Sea.

On Sunday, hundreds of protesters faced off against riot police at the Japanese embassy in Beijing.

Japanese businesses have also been targeted by protesters.

. . .

"Japanese-made cars were randomly stopped, their drivers grabbed and thrown out... and the cars smashed and burned. The police and army seemed to do little to stop the riot," he said.

Tensions have been heightened this week after the purchase of some of the islands by the Japanese government from their private Japanese owners.


They also attacked Japanese department stores and supermarkets. I don't think they looted them. Instead they smashed their way in and destroyed merchandise instead of stealing it.
It's hard to have a financial conglomerate with people like that.

http://www.theatlantic.com/internationa ... sm/262481/

On Saturday protestors in dozens of Chinese cities took to the streets to voice their anger at the Japanese government's nationalization of the Diaoyu Islands (Senkaku Islands in Japanese) in the East China Sea as a flagrant violation of Chinese sovereignty.

In Beijing, thousands of protestors besieged the Japanese embassy, hurling eggs, bottles and anything else at hand - sometimes hitting unfortunate reporters stationed nearby - and tried to storm the barricades manned by hundreds of riot police. The unrest was apparently too unsettling for censors, who have made "Japanese embassy" a banned search term on Sina Weibo, a popular Chinese social media platform.

Reports also poured in of attacks in several cities against Japanese nationals - including one person who was had ramen poured on him, another who had his eyeglasses broken and tourists who had bottles thrown at them - and vandalism of Japanese cars and restaurants and stores selling Japanese food and goods. One owner of a Japanese car even reportedly set his own car on fire in protest.

In Huangdao (黄岛), a commercial development district near the seaside city of Qingdao, a massive crowd (pictured up top) smashed their way into the local Jusco, a large Japanese department store, leaving heaps of wreckage in their wake.
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Re: OK, what do we do with this one?

Postby Doctor X » Sat Nov 10, 2012 3:15 am

Some just cannot let go of Nanking. . . .

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Re: OK, what do we do with this one?

Postby Bruce » Sat Nov 10, 2012 9:49 am

Sounds to me like a cold war between Japan and China.

What did we do during our cold war with the USSR during the 80's?

I know. Maybe we can help relieve tensions by staging a boxing match.

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All we need to do is find the Chinese version of Sylvester and Dolf. Then we put them in boxer shorts made out of the Chinese and Japanese flags and let them duke it out. There, that should help calm things down.
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Re: OK, what do we do with this one?

Postby Rob Lister » Sat Nov 10, 2012 12:41 pm

This is why we keep Anax on the payroll. Thoughtful analysis without obvious bias.

Someone should start a thread on the Osprey. I rather like it. I didn't quite 'get it' when I first saw the design, but I agree it makes good sense; better sense than their medium-lift helicopter counterparts, the CH-46E and CH-53D (in terms of practicality, not safety). It is a fine machine. There are no military pancreas. I don't see it being a real threat to the safety of civilian populations as the critically dangerous operations are at v-take-off and landing. There. Now I don't have to start a new thread. Got it out of my system.
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