Ask me about Star Trek, SC edition

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gnome
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Re: Ask me about Star Trek, SC edition

Post by gnome »

Grammatron wrote: Wed Mar 04, 2020 8:20 pm I've been rewatching ST:TNG and I think what stood out for me the most is lack of any drone use or even probe use in plots. Even when sending Data would be prudent a team of living beings is sent instead.

Is there ever a reason given for aversion to the use of robots?
Sort of. By having an episode that explicitly defined Data as being a full person legally, it would have been anathema to send Data somewhere on the presumption that his loss would be less tragic than loss of a human crew member. It does not account for times when Data would be an ideal specialist based on his abilities and they skip him--but there were plenty of episodes where his unique abilities were relied on.

As far as the use of less sophisticated robots/drones, I don't recall any in-story discussion of the matter, so the only explanation I can offer is a Doylist interpretation. The theme of the show is humanity's potential in space, so it makes sense to showcase the humans doing things. Or, if you want to be a bit more cynical, it makes for better TV to have a character do something instead of a remote drone.

The Discovery TV show finds some uses for drones, though perhaps not as extensively as might exist if the technology were available in the real world.
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Re: Ask me about Star Trek, SC edition

Post by gnome »

Grammatron wrote: Wed Mar 04, 2020 10:41 pm
Considering how many times Federation scientists wanted to take Data apart, they had "rights" at best.
... once? In the very episode where his rights were established.

I'm opening up myself to getting out geeked if there is another episode I forgot.

Interestingly (and not a spoiler), the new Picard show seems to be again taking on the question of the rights of artificial beings. Complete with Maddox references, which I appreciate. So many times a new story that's a follow up on on an older idea forgets that the crew has been through it before.

"Whoa! That thing can change shape!" ...said by people who have been impersonated by shape-changers several times in their career.
"If fighting is sure to result in victory, then you must fight! Sun Tzu said that, and I'd say he knows a little bit more about fighting than you do, pal, because he invented it, and then he perfected it so that no living man could best him in the ring of honor. Then, he used his fight money to buy two of every animal on earth, and then he herded them onto a boat, and then he beat the crap out of every single one. And from that day forward any time a bunch of animals are together in one place it's called a zoo! (Beat) Unless it's a farm!"
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Re: Ask me about Star Trek, SC edition

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gnome wrote: Thu Mar 05, 2020 12:43 pm
Grammatron wrote: Wed Mar 04, 2020 10:41 pm
Considering how many times Federation scientists wanted to take Data apart, they had "rights" at best.
... once? In the very episode where his rights were established.

I'm opening up myself to getting out geeked if there is another episode I forgot.
Cant think of one. Later though, the inference was that Lal was going to go under the knife to a research establishment for....unpleasant study.
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Re: Ask me about Star Trek, SC edition

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I don't think the implication there was that disassembly was in the offering--more of a "we think she'd be better off in our custody" -- so speaking to her well-being, however misguided.
"If fighting is sure to result in victory, then you must fight! Sun Tzu said that, and I'd say he knows a little bit more about fighting than you do, pal, because he invented it, and then he perfected it so that no living man could best him in the ring of honor. Then, he used his fight money to buy two of every animal on earth, and then he herded them onto a boat, and then he beat the crap out of every single one. And from that day forward any time a bunch of animals are together in one place it's called a zoo! (Beat) Unless it's a farm!"
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Re: Ask me about Star Trek, SC edition

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gnome wrote: Thu Mar 05, 2020 1:50 pm I don't think the implication there was that disassembly was in the offering--more of a "we think she'd be better off in our custody" -- so speaking to her well-being, however misguided.
Ward of the state in "Starfleet Research."

Yeah. We know how that turns out.
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Re: Ask me about Star Trek, SC edition

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Never said it was a fine idea, just that it would indeed still be illegal for them to just disassemble her or refuse her the same rights as Data.
"If fighting is sure to result in victory, then you must fight! Sun Tzu said that, and I'd say he knows a little bit more about fighting than you do, pal, because he invented it, and then he perfected it so that no living man could best him in the ring of honor. Then, he used his fight money to buy two of every animal on earth, and then he herded them onto a boat, and then he beat the crap out of every single one. And from that day forward any time a bunch of animals are together in one place it's called a zoo! (Beat) Unless it's a farm!"
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Re: Ask me about Star Trek, SC edition

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Never said it was a fine idea, just that it would indeed still be illegal for them to just disassemble her or refuse her the same rights as Data.
"If fighting is sure to result in victory, then you must fight! Sun Tzu said that, and I'd say he knows a little bit more about fighting than you do, pal, because he invented it, and then he perfected it so that no living man could best him in the ring of honor. Then, he used his fight money to buy two of every animal on earth, and then he herded them onto a boat, and then he beat the crap out of every single one. And from that day forward any time a bunch of animals are together in one place it's called a zoo! (Beat) Unless it's a farm!"
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Re: Ask me about Star Trek, SC edition

Post by Abdul Alhazred »

But if Data can be disassembled, Data can be reassembled.

So it might be some sort of crime or actionable tort, but not murder.

"Erasing" Data on the other hand ...
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Re: Ask me about Star Trek, SC edition

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That wasn't the question settled in "The Measure of a Man" -- the question was whether Data could refuse such a request, or if he was a Starfleet asset--property. It was given as a fact that the proposed procedure would put him at risk.

Lal, not even being in Starfleet--probably they have even less leeway.
"If fighting is sure to result in victory, then you must fight! Sun Tzu said that, and I'd say he knows a little bit more about fighting than you do, pal, because he invented it, and then he perfected it so that no living man could best him in the ring of honor. Then, he used his fight money to buy two of every animal on earth, and then he herded them onto a boat, and then he beat the crap out of every single one. And from that day forward any time a bunch of animals are together in one place it's called a zoo! (Beat) Unless it's a farm!"
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Re: Ask me about Star Trek, SC edition

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Seeing as very few people understood the machinations of a positronic brain, I would have little doubt that Lal's "headflap" would have been opened on the first day. I kinda got an underlying nefarious menace or "threat" to Lal from from that episode. At least that was my interpretation of it.
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Re: Ask me about Star Trek, SC edition

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Hotarubi wrote: Thu Mar 05, 2020 7:00 pm Seeing as very few people understood the machinations of a positronic brain, I would have little doubt that Lal's "headflap" would have been opened on the first day. I kinda got an underlying nefarious menace or "threat" to Lal from from that episode. At least that was my interpretation of it.
I got more of a social worker "We can take care of her better than you, and study her at the same time" vibe. The threat was being separated from her "father". Not everything they would have wanted to do would involve disassembly.
"If fighting is sure to result in victory, then you must fight! Sun Tzu said that, and I'd say he knows a little bit more about fighting than you do, pal, because he invented it, and then he perfected it so that no living man could best him in the ring of honor. Then, he used his fight money to buy two of every animal on earth, and then he herded them onto a boat, and then he beat the crap out of every single one. And from that day forward any time a bunch of animals are together in one place it's called a zoo! (Beat) Unless it's a farm!"
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Re: Ask me about Star Trek, SC edition

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Lal didn't have the appropriate chance to get properly 'Rikered'. This led directly to her neural net cascade breakdown.
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Re: Ask me about Star Trek, SC edition

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gnome wrote: Thu Mar 05, 2020 7:30 pm
Hotarubi wrote: Thu Mar 05, 2020 7:00 pm Seeing as very few people understood the machinations of a positronic brain, I would have little doubt that Lal's "headflap" would have been opened on the first day. I kinda got an underlying nefarious menace or "threat" to Lal from from that episode. At least that was my interpretation of it.
I got more of a social worker "We can take care of her better than you, and study her at the same time" vibe. The threat was being separated from her "father". Not everything they would have wanted to do would involve disassembly.
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Re: Ask me about Star Trek, SC edition

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It's only TV.
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Re: Ask me about Star Trek, SC edition

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Most of ST:TNG wasnt anything like television.
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Re: Ask me about Star Trek, SC edition

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gnome wrote: Thu Mar 05, 2020 12:43 pm
Grammatron wrote: Wed Mar 04, 2020 10:41 pm
Considering how many times Federation scientists wanted to take Data apart, they had "rights" at best.
... once? In the very episode where his rights were established.

I'm opening up myself to getting out geeked if there is another episode I forgot.
Once is correct. There are some instances where some Admirals (current and former) threaten Data.

And there there have been other instances, including the Lal episode, where Data was not viewed more than an object. Even Picard himself forgets about Data as a being sometimes (btw I think it's very cool of the show to show that). During the Klingon Civil War when Picard is organizing the blockade he neglects to give Data a command of his own until Data points it out.

Data is consistently a very well written character.
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Re: Ask me about Star Trek, SC edition

Post by gnome »

Yes--they were even pushing at times into him having emotions of his own kind... which is why I never liked the "emotion chip" shortcut. I wanted him to effectively program himself with emotions relating to how he reacts to things. He clearly does experience reactions that are analogous.
"If fighting is sure to result in victory, then you must fight! Sun Tzu said that, and I'd say he knows a little bit more about fighting than you do, pal, because he invented it, and then he perfected it so that no living man could best him in the ring of honor. Then, he used his fight money to buy two of every animal on earth, and then he herded them onto a boat, and then he beat the crap out of every single one. And from that day forward any time a bunch of animals are together in one place it's called a zoo! (Beat) Unless it's a farm!"
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Re: Ask me about Star Trek, SC edition

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Grammatron wrote: Fri Mar 06, 2020 8:30 pm
gnome wrote: Thu Mar 05, 2020 12:43 pm
Grammatron wrote: Wed Mar 04, 2020 10:41 pm
Considering how many times Federation scientists wanted to take Data apart, they had "rights" at best.
... once? In the very episode where his rights were established.

I'm opening up myself to getting out geeked if there is another episode I forgot.
Once is correct. There are some instances where some Admirals (current and former) threaten Data.

And there there have been other instances, including the Lal episode, where Data was not viewed more than an object. Even Picard himself forgets about Data as a being sometimes (btw I think it's very cool of the show to show that). During the Klingon Civil War when Picard is organizing the blockade he neglects to give Data a command of his own until Data points it out.

Data is consistently a very well written character.
Yet badly acted. Stan Laurel as an Andriod? Embarrassing at times.

However, it is true that the some of the Data and Picard focused episodes were the best of TNG. The other character focused stories just sucked. Hard.
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Re: Ask me about Star Trek, SC edition

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Three out of five total actors to portray Lurch from the Addams Family have been featured in Star Trek media. That is a thing that you know now.
"If fighting is sure to result in victory, then you must fight! Sun Tzu said that, and I'd say he knows a little bit more about fighting than you do, pal, because he invented it, and then he perfected it so that no living man could best him in the ring of honor. Then, he used his fight money to buy two of every animal on earth, and then he herded them onto a boat, and then he beat the crap out of every single one. And from that day forward any time a bunch of animals are together in one place it's called a zoo! (Beat) Unless it's a farm!"
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Re: Ask me about Star Trek, SC edition

Post by Abdul Alhazred »

Just checked.

Yes that includes the One True Lurch. 8)

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ted_Cassidy

I see he played The Gorn (as well as other one shot roles).

OK gnome, Star Trek coolness. :coolspecs:
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