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Doctor X
Posts: 71915
Joined: Fri Jun 04, 2004 8:09 pm
Title: Collective Messiah

I long suspected that Vonda was felating Roddenbury daily to "get the gig." His novelization of The Motionless Picture was not that bad given the material--or lack thereof. Should have gotten Allen Dean Foster. Vonda could not write about the feelings you get when falling if you tossed her out of an airplane.

It is kind of funny . . . novelizations . . . what is the point? It should be to give a bit more information and background, but it is usually just a money-grab. Foster's are interesting since his were based on early scripts so his The Thing is very different. Not as good as the eventual movie, but that is not his fault--they changed the plot substantially.

With Alien he retained some of the scenes cut like the cocooning of Dallas and Harry Dean Stanton. That was a "plot hole" in the movie.

Back to Trek, The Motionless Picture novelization brought out more of Kirk's issues with growing old, accepting promotion but feeling useless, and all of that which were eventually brought out in the second movie where the actors could actually play their characters. I sometimes think Lucas directed The Motionless Picture but there was no obviously racist stereotype in it that I can remember.

So I happily picked up the book for The Wrath of Khan . . . and tossed it away after about ten pages. Un . . . readable . . . drek.

--J.D.
Mob of the Mean: Free beanie, cattle-prod and Charley Fan Club!
"Doctor X is just treating you the way he treats everyone--as subhuman crap too dumb to breathe in after you breathe out." – Don
DocX: FTW. – sparks
"Doctor X wins again." – Pyrrho
"Never sorry to make a racist Fucktard cry." – His Humble MagNIfIcence
"It was the criticisms of Doc X, actually, that let me see more clearly how far the hypocrisy had gone." – clarsct
"I'd leave it up to Doctor X who has been a benevolent tyrant so far." – Grammatron
"Indeed you are a river to your people.
Shit. That's going to end up in your sig." – Pyrrho
"Try a twelve step program and accept Doctor X as your High Power." – asthmatic camel
"just like Doc X said." – gnome

WS CHAMPIONS X4!!!! NBA CHAMPIONS!! Stanley Cup! SB CHAMPIONS X6!!!!!!

Abdul Alhazred
Posts: 80990
Joined: Mon Jun 07, 2004 1:33 pm
Title: Yes, that one.
Location: Chicago

My favorite "non-canon" TOS is that novel which is the sequel to the episode about the Organians.

I say favorite but I don't remember the title or author. James Blish, maybe?
The arc of the moral universe bends towards chaos.
People who believe God or History are on their side provide the chaos.

gnome
Posts: 23287
Joined: Tue Jun 29, 2004 12:40 am
Location: New Port Richey, FL

She was the first Trek novelist I found, I enjoyed it mainly for the additional tidbits of story included, sort of like watching deleted scenes... but especially after reading others I see the weaknesses.

Another one I used to like but I find almost unreadable now is Diane Duane.

Current favorites: Greg Cox and Peter David
"If fighting is sure to result in victory, then you must fight! Sun Tzu said that, and I'd say he knows a little bit more about fighting than you do, pal, because he invented it, and then he perfected it so that no living man could best him in the ring of honor. Then, he used his fight money to buy two of every animal on earth, and then he herded them onto a boat, and then he beat the crap out of every single one. And from that day forward any time a bunch of animals are together in one place it's called a zoo! (Beat) Unless it's a farm!"
--Soldier, TF2

Doctor X
Posts: 71915
Joined: Fri Jun 04, 2004 8:09 pm
Title: Collective Messiah

Must admit I have not read nor watched Star Trek in a very long time--pretty much after the good movies--the last of which being Star Trek VI--because Kim Cattrall. One of the best cast of the films.

I use to love tormenting New Trek fans trying to make excuses for it. The good shows were old Trek shows regurgitated. I love Sir Patrick as an actor--watch him toss people off his castle defending his daughter's honor! "If a BOY has been CHOSEN! I BOY SHALL BE KING!" Awesome actor.

Series? Meh.

It is sort of like Bond for me--time to move on to something new.

--J.D.
Mob of the Mean: Free beanie, cattle-prod and Charley Fan Club!
"Doctor X is just treating you the way he treats everyone--as subhuman crap too dumb to breathe in after you breathe out." – Don
DocX: FTW. – sparks
"Doctor X wins again." – Pyrrho
"Never sorry to make a racist Fucktard cry." – His Humble MagNIfIcence
"It was the criticisms of Doc X, actually, that let me see more clearly how far the hypocrisy had gone." – clarsct
"I'd leave it up to Doctor X who has been a benevolent tyrant so far." – Grammatron
"Indeed you are a river to your people.
Shit. That's going to end up in your sig." – Pyrrho
"Try a twelve step program and accept Doctor X as your High Power." – asthmatic camel
"just like Doc X said." – gnome

WS CHAMPIONS X4!!!! NBA CHAMPIONS!! Stanley Cup! SB CHAMPIONS X6!!!!!!

gnome
Posts: 23287
Joined: Tue Jun 29, 2004 12:40 am
Location: New Port Richey, FL

Abdul Alhazred wrote:My favorite "non-canon" TOS is that novel which is the sequel to the episode about the Organians.

I say favorite but I don't remember the title or author. James Blish, maybe?
That would make the first of the old school Bantam books novel series--I think that would be Spock Must Die!, indeed written by James Blish.

Later books in that unofficial series were written by an author that started to inject WAY too much K/S shipping. Not explicit like fanfic stuff, but you could tell she wanted to. They were portrayed as so emotionally co-dependent that Richard Simmons would have insulted their manliness...
Last edited by gnome on Mon Nov 16, 2015 8:17 pm, edited 2 times in total.
"If fighting is sure to result in victory, then you must fight! Sun Tzu said that, and I'd say he knows a little bit more about fighting than you do, pal, because he invented it, and then he perfected it so that no living man could best him in the ring of honor. Then, he used his fight money to buy two of every animal on earth, and then he herded them onto a boat, and then he beat the crap out of every single one. And from that day forward any time a bunch of animals are together in one place it's called a zoo! (Beat) Unless it's a farm!"
--Soldier, TF2

gnome
Posts: 23287
Joined: Tue Jun 29, 2004 12:40 am
Location: New Port Richey, FL

Doctor X wrote:Must admit I have not read nor watched Star Trek in a very long time--pretty much after the good movies--the last of which being Star Trek VI--because Kim Cattrall. One of the best cast of the films.

I use to love tormenting New Trek fans trying to make excuses for it. The good shows were old Trek shows regurgitated. I love Sir Patrick as an actor--watch him toss people off his castle defending his daughter's honor! "If a BOY has been CHOSEN! I BOY SHALL BE KING!" Awesome actor.

Series? Meh.

It is sort of like Bond for me--time to move on to something new.

--J.D.
If for some reason you wound up not having something of far more importance to read, such as the phone book they deliver outside your home--if you happened to consider more Trek reading I'd suggest the "Eugenics Wars" trilogy series by Cox.
"If fighting is sure to result in victory, then you must fight! Sun Tzu said that, and I'd say he knows a little bit more about fighting than you do, pal, because he invented it, and then he perfected it so that no living man could best him in the ring of honor. Then, he used his fight money to buy two of every animal on earth, and then he herded them onto a boat, and then he beat the crap out of every single one. And from that day forward any time a bunch of animals are together in one place it's called a zoo! (Beat) Unless it's a farm!"
--Soldier, TF2

Doctor X
Posts: 71915
Joined: Fri Jun 04, 2004 8:09 pm
Title: Collective Messiah

Between the normal boring old stuff I have to read, I got hooked on a long complex Japanese Original series that makes the Ringu-Razen-Rūpu series seem straight-forward.

--J.D.
Mob of the Mean: Free beanie, cattle-prod and Charley Fan Club!
"Doctor X is just treating you the way he treats everyone--as subhuman crap too dumb to breathe in after you breathe out." – Don
DocX: FTW. – sparks
"Doctor X wins again." – Pyrrho
"Never sorry to make a racist Fucktard cry." – His Humble MagNIfIcence
"It was the criticisms of Doc X, actually, that let me see more clearly how far the hypocrisy had gone." – clarsct
"I'd leave it up to Doctor X who has been a benevolent tyrant so far." – Grammatron
"Indeed you are a river to your people.
Shit. That's going to end up in your sig." – Pyrrho
"Try a twelve step program and accept Doctor X as your High Power." – asthmatic camel
"just like Doc X said." – gnome

WS CHAMPIONS X4!!!! NBA CHAMPIONS!! Stanley Cup! SB CHAMPIONS X6!!!!!!

Abdul Alhazred
Posts: 80990
Joined: Mon Jun 07, 2004 1:33 pm
Title: Yes, that one.
Location: Chicago

gnome wrote:That would make the first of the old school Bantam books novel series--I think that would be Spock Must Die!, indeed written by James Blish.
It's coming back to me now.

And the coolest thing about Star Trek the first time around is that they had real science fiction authors doing most of the scripts.
The arc of the moral universe bends towards chaos.
People who believe God or History are on their side provide the chaos.

Nyarlathotep
Posts: 49172
Joined: Fri Jun 04, 2004 2:50 pm
Title: God Emperor

I have yet to find a Star Trek novelization that I truly enjoyed, though I admit I haven't tried any by big name sci-fi authors like Blish.

But generally, bleh.
“Power bases are very dangerous because they attract people who are truly insane, people who seek power only for the sake of power.”

gnome
Posts: 23287
Joined: Tue Jun 29, 2004 12:40 am
Location: New Port Richey, FL

For you I'd recommend Peter David stuff if you find yourself looking for it.
"If fighting is sure to result in victory, then you must fight! Sun Tzu said that, and I'd say he knows a little bit more about fighting than you do, pal, because he invented it, and then he perfected it so that no living man could best him in the ring of honor. Then, he used his fight money to buy two of every animal on earth, and then he herded them onto a boat, and then he beat the crap out of every single one. And from that day forward any time a bunch of animals are together in one place it's called a zoo! (Beat) Unless it's a farm!"
--Soldier, TF2

Nyarlathotep
Posts: 49172
Joined: Fri Jun 04, 2004 2:50 pm
Title: God Emperor

I don't know. I have been sucked in by enough Star Trek novels that had synopses that sounded really interesting, but then I read them and found myself really annoyed by their terribleness, that I have an almost instinctual aversion to them no.
“Power bases are very dangerous because they attract people who are truly insane, people who seek power only for the sake of power.”

gnome
Posts: 23287
Joined: Tue Jun 29, 2004 12:40 am
Location: New Port Richey, FL

Like I keep admitting, there's plenty of better stuff to read that's not Trek related at all.
"If fighting is sure to result in victory, then you must fight! Sun Tzu said that, and I'd say he knows a little bit more about fighting than you do, pal, because he invented it, and then he perfected it so that no living man could best him in the ring of honor. Then, he used his fight money to buy two of every animal on earth, and then he herded them onto a boat, and then he beat the crap out of every single one. And from that day forward any time a bunch of animals are together in one place it's called a zoo! (Beat) Unless it's a farm!"
--Soldier, TF2

Doctor X
Posts: 71915
Joined: Fri Jun 04, 2004 8:09 pm
Title: Collective Messiah

Just too much "Fan Fiction" frankly. As a very Wee Spud I enjoyed Blish's novelizations of what were Star Trek episodes. However, his novel Spoke Must Die sucked as most novelizations do.

One problem may be high expectation: "we" know what we like and when someone gets it wrong it pisses us off. Oddly enough, the Bestest Star Trek film nearly became the worse if they used the original scripts. As has been told too many times Nimoy about had it with Star Trek and The Motionless Picture really pissed him off. He and DeForest Kelly tried to add some of their banter--no. I found that funny when I first heard about because when I saw The Motionless Picture Me Dad and I concluded that "something's missing."

We returned home, turned on the television--there is a Star Trek rerun of course! I, Mudd. In the opening McCoy complains that there is this crewman who is strange--Thanks interwebs:
NORMAN: Good morning, sir, Doctor.
SPOCK: Something wrong?
MCCOY: Yes. There's something odd about that man, and I can't quite pinpoint it.
SPOCK: Perhaps you're making a rather hasty judgment. Mister Norman has only been aboard seventy two hours.
MCCOY: I know when something doesn't strike me right, and he doesn't.
SPOCK: Specifics, Doctor. Labels do not make arguments.
MCCOY: All right. There's something wrong about a man who never smiles, whose conversation never varies from the routine of the job, and who won't talk about his background.
SPOCK: I see. Spock actually stops short and stares at McCoy for a moment with his "I am Irritated Even Though I Show No Emotion, You Fuck!" stare.
MCCOY: Spock, I mean that it's odd for a non-Vulcan. The ears make all the difference.
SPOCK: I find your argument strewn with gaping defects in logic.
MCCOY: Maybe, but you can't evaluate a man by logic alone. Besides, he has avoided two appointments that I've made for his physical exam without reason.
SPOCK: That's not at all surprising, Doctor. He's probably terrified of your beads and rattles.

And indeed, the "ending" of TMP is Scotty telling Spock they can bring him back to Vulcan in a few days. The script read--and The Suits Insisted on Retaining: "My task on Vulcan is complete."

Nimoy wanted to say something along the lines of, "Since you are retaining the good doctor, my need here is greater than ever." Just one nice old Spock-McCoy jab. Nope.

Put it this way, even the clueless hack Lucas did not make Harrison Ford correct his "I know" ad-lib. "Harrison, the line is SUPPOSE to be, 'remember that 'cause I'll be back.' Yoda can stick to the script, why not you?"

Paramount made \$ on a film no one really liked, saw visions of a new series and something like seven films. So they had the brains to fire everyone involved and hire people with brains. However, to convince Nimoy to come back--and you cannot do Star Trek without him--they said they would kill him off in response to his demand that "it be different."

And he was suppose to die in like the first act. And like you can see how that would have sucked. An upset Flunky leaked that which caused everyone to scramble and come up with a much better story. The whole opening was a "tease" of "You're upset we might kill Spock? What if we kill EVERYONE AND YOUR CHILDHOOD AHA!HA!HA!HA!HA!JETFUELCAN'TMELTCORBOMITE?!!!!"

Hard to plan that sort of stuff. Sometimes you get lucky. Just like "Bruce the Shark" never working made a better film and saved Richard Dreyfus' character.

--J.D.
Mob of the Mean: Free beanie, cattle-prod and Charley Fan Club!
"Doctor X is just treating you the way he treats everyone--as subhuman crap too dumb to breathe in after you breathe out." – Don
DocX: FTW. – sparks
"Doctor X wins again." – Pyrrho
"Never sorry to make a racist Fucktard cry." – His Humble MagNIfIcence
"It was the criticisms of Doc X, actually, that let me see more clearly how far the hypocrisy had gone." – clarsct
"I'd leave it up to Doctor X who has been a benevolent tyrant so far." – Grammatron
"Indeed you are a river to your people.
Shit. That's going to end up in your sig." – Pyrrho
"Try a twelve step program and accept Doctor X as your High Power." – asthmatic camel
"just like Doc X said." – gnome

WS CHAMPIONS X4!!!! NBA CHAMPIONS!! Stanley Cup! SB CHAMPIONS X6!!!!!!

gnome
Posts: 23287
Joined: Tue Jun 29, 2004 12:40 am
Location: New Port Richey, FL

Raising this thread from the dead in honor of the 50th anniversary.

Any new questions?
"If fighting is sure to result in victory, then you must fight! Sun Tzu said that, and I'd say he knows a little bit more about fighting than you do, pal, because he invented it, and then he perfected it so that no living man could best him in the ring of honor. Then, he used his fight money to buy two of every animal on earth, and then he herded them onto a boat, and then he beat the crap out of every single one. And from that day forward any time a bunch of animals are together in one place it's called a zoo! (Beat) Unless it's a farm!"
--Soldier, TF2

Grammatron
Posts: 34811
Joined: Tue Jun 08, 2004 1:21 am
Location: Los Angeles, CA

Yes.

What were the cloaking rules for USS Defiant in the Alpha quadrant and why were Sisko and crew allowed to bend them so much with only few repercussions?

sparks
Posts: 16233
Joined: Fri Oct 26, 2007 4:13 pm
Location: Friar McWallclocks Bar -- Where time stands still while you lean over!

Uh, because it's only a tv show? (And the worst of the entire franchise imho)
You can lead them to knowledge, but you can't make them think.

gnome
Posts: 23287
Joined: Tue Jun 29, 2004 12:40 am
Location: New Port Richey, FL

The rule was that the Defiant would only use the cloaking device in the Gamma quadrant, and in exchange they promised to share intelligence about the Dominion and keep a Romulan supervisor on board to ensure compliance -- sub-commander T'Rul.

http://memory-alpha.wikia.com/wiki/T%27Rul

The very next episode, however, she apparently went to play basketball with Chuck Cunningham, because she never turned up again.

Early on, Sisko kept to the agreement, though it seems more and more "exceptions" were made over time. I don't necessarily give the writers this much credit for consistency, but I would say the diplomatic concerns became moot when the Federation entered a state of war with the Dominion, but the Romulans signed a non-aggression pact. Accepting intelligence from the Federation would probably be considered a violation, so in a sense the Dominion treaty superseded the amended Treaty of Algeron, and the Federation was effectively free to use the Defiant's cloak however they saw fit at that point. Later, when they became allies, the genie was already out of the bottle, so to speak, and so they probably saw that it was useless to try to enforce the agreement again.
"If fighting is sure to result in victory, then you must fight! Sun Tzu said that, and I'd say he knows a little bit more about fighting than you do, pal, because he invented it, and then he perfected it so that no living man could best him in the ring of honor. Then, he used his fight money to buy two of every animal on earth, and then he herded them onto a boat, and then he beat the crap out of every single one. And from that day forward any time a bunch of animals are together in one place it's called a zoo! (Beat) Unless it's a farm!"
--Soldier, TF2

gnome
Posts: 23287
Joined: Tue Jun 29, 2004 12:40 am
Location: New Port Richey, FL

sparks wrote:Uh, because it's only a tv show? (And the worst of the entire franchise imho)
Hush, you. We went through this earlier in the thread.
"If fighting is sure to result in victory, then you must fight! Sun Tzu said that, and I'd say he knows a little bit more about fighting than you do, pal, because he invented it, and then he perfected it so that no living man could best him in the ring of honor. Then, he used his fight money to buy two of every animal on earth, and then he herded them onto a boat, and then he beat the crap out of every single one. And from that day forward any time a bunch of animals are together in one place it's called a zoo! (Beat) Unless it's a farm!"
--Soldier, TF2

Doctor X
Posts: 71915
Joined: Fri Jun 04, 2004 8:09 pm
Title: Collective Messiah

--J.D.
Mob of the Mean: Free beanie, cattle-prod and Charley Fan Club!
"Doctor X is just treating you the way he treats everyone--as subhuman crap too dumb to breathe in after you breathe out." – Don
DocX: FTW. – sparks
"Doctor X wins again." – Pyrrho
"Never sorry to make a racist Fucktard cry." – His Humble MagNIfIcence
"It was the criticisms of Doc X, actually, that let me see more clearly how far the hypocrisy had gone." – clarsct
"I'd leave it up to Doctor X who has been a benevolent tyrant so far." – Grammatron
"Indeed you are a river to your people.
Shit. That's going to end up in your sig." – Pyrrho
"Try a twelve step program and accept Doctor X as your High Power." – asthmatic camel
"just like Doc X said." – gnome

WS CHAMPIONS X4!!!! NBA CHAMPIONS!! Stanley Cup! SB CHAMPIONS X6!!!!!!

Abdul Alhazred
Posts: 80990
Joined: Mon Jun 07, 2004 1:33 pm
Title: Yes, that one.
Location: Chicago

Coolest TOS villain name: Bela Oxmyx

Coolest TOS villain (but the name not so much): The Gorn.
The arc of the moral universe bends towards chaos.
People who believe God or History are on their side provide the chaos.