The Voynich Manuscript

This is our lounge area. Feel free to come in and get acquainted!
User avatar
ed
Posts: 35069
Joined: Tue Jun 08, 2004 11:52 pm
Title: The Hero of Sukhbataar

Re: The Voynich Manuscript

Post by ed » Thu Feb 20, 2014 6:09 pm

Nyarlathotep wrote:Yeah, I was reading something today that said they think it may be written in Nahuatl (the Aztec language). There are some codexes from that period and there are Nahuatl speakers alive today. So if they are right, it SHOULD be a matter of finding a speaker of the language and letting them go to town.

But I am dubious. I am still leaning toward "Early 20th century hoax" on this one.
Wonder if they have done a comprehensive analysis of the materials used to make it. That is indicative of things.
Wenn ich Kultur höre, entsichere ich meinen Browning!

User avatar
Nyarlathotep
Posts: 48553
Joined: Fri Jun 04, 2004 2:50 pm

Re: The Voynich Manuscript

Post by Nyarlathotep » Thu Feb 20, 2014 6:55 pm

I know they have done carbon dating on the pages, and they do date to the 15th century. But then again its a relatively common trick for people who forge old documents to get hold of some paper/parchment/whatever from the appropriate era, use various methods to remove the writing already on it (assuming they aren't lucky enough to get something blank) and forge away. So I am not convinced by the carbon dating alone.

I don't recall reading anywhere of any sort of analysis done on the ink, so I am assuming that it was either not done or inconclusive. But that's what I would want to look at (though a skilled forger could make an ink using materials available at appropriate time too, it's been done before). But yeah, a comprehensive analysis of the materials would go a long way toward figuring out what this thing is. I still think 'hoax' simply because it is pretty dmaned convenient that this thing shows up out of the blue in 1912, not so much as a mention of it or anything like it before that.

User avatar
Abdul Alhazred
Posts: 75537
Joined: Mon Jun 07, 2004 1:33 pm
Title: Yes, that one.
Location: Chicago

Re: The Voynich Manuscript

Post by Abdul Alhazred » Thu Feb 20, 2014 7:12 pm

If it's a hoax, to what end?

Was it just 4 teh LULz?
Image "If I turn in a sicko, will I get a reward?"

"Yes! A BIG REWARD!" ====> Click here to turn in a sicko
Any man writes a mission statement spends a night in the box.
-- our mission statement plappendale

User avatar
ed
Posts: 35069
Joined: Tue Jun 08, 2004 11:52 pm
Title: The Hero of Sukhbataar

Re: The Voynich Manuscript

Post by ed » Thu Feb 20, 2014 7:19 pm

Image

I've seen a fair number of fakes over the years. Some are sort of inexplicable in that the time and cost could never ever be recouped from a sale. Only possible interpretation is that it was done for the lulz.
Wenn ich Kultur höre, entsichere ich meinen Browning!

User avatar
Abdul Alhazred
Posts: 75537
Joined: Mon Jun 07, 2004 1:33 pm
Title: Yes, that one.
Location: Chicago

Re: The Voynich Manuscript

Post by Abdul Alhazred » Thu Feb 20, 2014 7:21 pm

ed wrote:I've seen a fair number of fakes over the years.
Fake firearms?

Other than direct monetary rewards, a fake manuscript might be to push a particular historical or religious view. Or just the glory of "finding" it.

But not something entirely cryptic.
Image "If I turn in a sicko, will I get a reward?"

"Yes! A BIG REWARD!" ====> Click here to turn in a sicko
Any man writes a mission statement spends a night in the box.
-- our mission statement plappendale

User avatar
Nyarlathotep
Posts: 48553
Joined: Fri Jun 04, 2004 2:50 pm

Re: The Voynich Manuscript

Post by Nyarlathotep » Thu Feb 20, 2014 8:00 pm

I know there was a dude that was making fake documents purportedly from major figures in the early years of the Mormon Church and was making big money selling these documents to the church. And he was pretty thorough too. Used paper from the early 19th century and made his own ink. IIRC (though I am not 100% sure without looking it up, which I don't have time for right now. so I COULD be confusing his case with another one) he finally tripped up with the ink, putting some sort of anachronistic ingredient in that was eventuall noticed

But other than that, there are also people that do it just so they can claim the glory of having found some lost/rare document. Sort of 'for the lulz' but a little more directed. Doing it for attention either way.
Spoiler:
Quote Redacted by Section 31

User avatar
Cool Hand
Posts: 9999
Joined: Sun Jun 06, 2004 4:09 pm
Location: Earning my avatar in the rain

Re: The Voynich Manuscript

Post by Cool Hand » Thu Feb 20, 2014 9:03 pm

For those interested in forensic ink examination:

Forensic Analysis of Black Ballpoint Pen Inks Using Capillary Electrophoresis (an abstract on the FBI's website):
Introduction

Determining ink sources used on a variety of documents is a key priority for forensic document examiners. The ability to distinguish different inks can be quite useful for several reasons. Document alteration (e.g., at a date later than indicated) by writing with a pen of similar color but different dye composition is one specific example when ink differentiation is crucial in criminal cases. Ink comparison also can determine the relationship between two samples in a forgery case that involves an original and a copy or two documents believed to have the same author. Sample authentication also can be tested based on ink analysis of raw colorant materials available during a specific historical period. To unambiguously identify specific inks, data interpretation is simplified if a chemical-separation step precedes detection of various components in ink formulations.

Inks are complex mixtures of colorants, vehicles, and additives, which are adjusted in composition to produce the desired writing characteristics (Industrial Dyes: Chemistry, Property, Applications 2003). Colorants are compounds that give ink the desired color and can include any or all of the following chemical classifications: pigments and/or acidic, basic, azoic, direct, disperse, reactive, and solvent dyes. Colorants are often the focus of ink analysis because of their light-absorption and emission properties that can be detected by various analytical methods. Vehicles or carriers are usually solvents that allow the ink to flow and carry the colorants to the material surface. Solvents are the typical ingredients analyzed in date-of-origin investigations because of their gradual evaporation from a document (Aginsky 1994; Brunelle 1992; Brunelle and Cantu 1987; Brunelle et al. 1987; Cantu 1996; Cantu 1991; Cantu 1988). Last, additives can serve as flow (viscosity) modifiers, surface activators, corrosion controllers, solubility enhancers, and preservatives (Brunelle and Reed 1984; Leach and Pierce 1993). Detection of these additive compounds can greatly aid forensic examiners because the compounds can be manufacturer-specific. Their identity is often a highly guarded secret in ink formulations, as are the colorants themselves.

Typical forensic techniques on questioned documents involve ink extractions followed by thin-layer chromatography analysis (Standard Guide for Test Methods for Forensic Writing Ink Comparison 1996; Tebbett 1991). Knowledge gained from this procedure is limited to colored spots that are correlated to a calculated retardation factor (Rf). Densitometry also can be used to probe the concentration of dye on a specific area of the thin-layer chromatography slide in reflectance mode (Aginsky 1994). Carefully prepared standards are required for quantitative analysis of an unknown sample. Problems with thin-layer chromatography reproducibility can be related to the difficulty in spotting uniform samples and maintaining constant environmental influences, which lead to changes in Rf values. Limited sensitivity, sample destruction, and extra processing required for additional information are also shortcomings of the method. Evidence handling requires that samples processed by thin-layer chromatography be placed under environmentally controlled storage conditions for future reference to prevent against color fading.
http://www.fbi.gov/about-us/lab/forensi ... arch01.htm

CH
....life purpose is pay taxes -- pillory 12/05/13

And you run and you run to catch up with the sun but it's sinking
Racing around to come up behind you again
The sun is the same in a relative way, but you're older
Shorter of breath and one day closer to death.

"Time" -- Pink Floyd

User avatar
ed
Posts: 35069
Joined: Tue Jun 08, 2004 11:52 pm
Title: The Hero of Sukhbataar

Re: The Voynich Manuscript

Post by ed » Thu Feb 20, 2014 9:14 pm

Abdul Alhazred wrote:
ed wrote:I've seen a fair number of fakes over the years.
Fake firearms?

Other than direct monetary rewards, a fake manuscript might be to push a particular historical or religious view. Or just the glory of "finding" it.

But not something entirely cryptic.
Firearms, arms, armor. Also graphic stuff that might be 18th c. reprints of much earlier stuff that gets "repackaged". I saw a luger once that was perfect except that it was a complete fake. Must have cost twice what the value would have been for an original. Lulz.
Wenn ich Kultur höre, entsichere ich meinen Browning!

User avatar
ed
Posts: 35069
Joined: Tue Jun 08, 2004 11:52 pm
Title: The Hero of Sukhbataar

Re: The Voynich Manuscript

Post by ed » Thu Feb 20, 2014 9:22 pm

Cool Hand wrote:For those interested in forensic ink examination:

Forensic Analysis of Black Ballpoint Pen Inks Using Capillary Electrophoresis (an abstract on the FBI's website):
Introduction

Determining ink sources used on a variety of documents is a key priority for forensic document examiners. The ability to distinguish different inks can be quite useful for several reasons. Document alteration (e.g., at a date later than indicated) by writing with a pen of similar color but different dye composition is one specific example when ink differentiation is crucial in criminal cases. Ink comparison also can determine the relationship between two samples in a forgery case that involves an original and a copy or two documents believed to have the same author. Sample authentication also can be tested based on ink analysis of raw colorant materials available during a specific historical period. To unambiguously identify specific inks, data interpretation is simplified if a chemical-separation step precedes detection of various components in ink formulations.

Inks are complex mixtures of colorants, vehicles, and additives, which are adjusted in composition to produce the desired writing characteristics (Industrial Dyes: Chemistry, Property, Applications 2003). Colorants are compounds that give ink the desired color and can include any or all of the following chemical classifications: pigments and/or acidic, basic, azoic, direct, disperse, reactive, and solvent dyes. Colorants are often the focus of ink analysis because of their light-absorption and emission properties that can be detected by various analytical methods. Vehicles or carriers are usually solvents that allow the ink to flow and carry the colorants to the material surface. Solvents are the typical ingredients analyzed in date-of-origin investigations because of their gradual evaporation from a document (Aginsky 1994; Brunelle 1992; Brunelle and Cantu 1987; Brunelle et al. 1987; Cantu 1996; Cantu 1991; Cantu 1988). Last, additives can serve as flow (viscosity) modifiers, surface activators, corrosion controllers, solubility enhancers, and preservatives (Brunelle and Reed 1984; Leach and Pierce 1993). Detection of these additive compounds can greatly aid forensic examiners because the compounds can be manufacturer-specific. Their identity is often a highly guarded secret in ink formulations, as are the colorants themselves.

Typical forensic techniques on questioned documents involve ink extractions followed by thin-layer chromatography analysis (Standard Guide for Test Methods for Forensic Writing Ink Comparison 1996; Tebbett 1991). Knowledge gained from this procedure is limited to colored spots that are correlated to a calculated retardation factor (Rf). Densitometry also can be used to probe the concentration of dye on a specific area of the thin-layer chromatography slide in reflectance mode (Aginsky 1994). Carefully prepared standards are required for quantitative analysis of an unknown sample. Problems with thin-layer chromatography reproducibility can be related to the difficulty in spotting uniform samples and maintaining constant environmental influences, which lead to changes in Rf values. Limited sensitivity, sample destruction, and extra processing required for additional information are also shortcomings of the method. Evidence handling requires that samples processed by thin-layer chromatography be placed under environmentally controlled storage conditions for future reference to prevent against color fading.
http://www.fbi.gov/about-us/lab/forensi ... arch01.htm

CH
For art forgery watch http://www.amazon.com/Incognito-Jason-P ... od+steiger

I think that you can fake a work of art but it is really tough. And the issue also is the provenance. Very tough nowadays. Also, anything that passed thru Germany is a tough sell.
Wenn ich Kultur höre, entsichere ich meinen Browning!

User avatar
hammegk
Posts: 15134
Joined: Sun Jun 06, 2004 1:16 pm
Title: Curmudgeon
Location: Hither, sometimes Yon

Re: The Voynich Manuscript

Post by hammegk » Fri Feb 21, 2014 1:59 am

Cool Hand wrote:For those interested in forensic ink examination:

Forensic Analysis of Black Ballpoint Pen Inks Using Capillary Electrophoresis (an abstract on the FBI's website):
Introduction

Determining ink sources used on a variety of documents is a key priority for forensic document examiners. The ability to distinguish different inks can be quite useful for several reasons. Document alteration (e.g., at a date later than indicated) by writing with a pen of similar color but different dye composition is one specific example when ink differentiation is crucial in criminal cases. Ink comparison also can determine the relationship between two samples in a forgery case that involves an original and a copy or two documents believed to have the same author. Sample authentication also can be tested based on ink analysis of raw colorant materials available during a specific historical period. To unambiguously identify specific inks, data interpretation is simplified if a chemical-separation step precedes detection of various components in ink formulations.

Inks are complex mixtures of colorants, vehicles, and additives, which are adjusted in composition to produce the desired writing characteristics (Industrial Dyes: Chemistry, Property, Applications 2003). Colorants are compounds that give ink the desired color and can include any or all of the following chemical classifications: pigments and/or acidic, basic, azoic, direct, disperse, reactive, and solvent dyes. Colorants are often the focus of ink analysis because of their light-absorption and emission properties that can be detected by various analytical methods. Vehicles or carriers are usually solvents that allow the ink to flow and carry the colorants to the material surface. Solvents are the typical ingredients analyzed in date-of-origin investigations because of their gradual evaporation from a document (Aginsky 1994; Brunelle 1992; Brunelle and Cantu 1987; Brunelle et al. 1987; Cantu 1996; Cantu 1991; Cantu 1988). Last, additives can serve as flow (viscosity) modifiers, surface activators, corrosion controllers, solubility enhancers, and preservatives (Brunelle and Reed 1984; Leach and Pierce 1993). Detection of these additive compounds can greatly aid forensic examiners because the compounds can be manufacturer-specific. Their identity is often a highly guarded secret in ink formulations, as are the colorants themselves.

Typical forensic techniques on questioned documents involve ink extractions followed by thin-layer chromatography analysis (Standard Guide for Test Methods for Forensic Writing Ink Comparison 1996; Tebbett 1991). Knowledge gained from this procedure is limited to colored spots that are correlated to a calculated retardation factor (Rf). Densitometry also can be used to probe the concentration of dye on a specific area of the thin-layer chromatography slide in reflectance mode (Aginsky 1994). Carefully prepared standards are required for quantitative analysis of an unknown sample. Problems with thin-layer chromatography reproducibility can be related to the difficulty in spotting uniform samples and maintaining constant environmental influences, which lead to changes in Rf values. Limited sensitivity, sample destruction, and extra processing required for additional information are also shortcomings of the method. Evidence handling requires that samples processed by thin-layer chromatography be placed under environmentally controlled storage conditions for future reference to prevent against color fading.
http://www.fbi.gov/about-us/lab/forensi ... arch01.htm

CH
Thank ed for copiers.

User avatar
DrMatt
BANNED
Posts: 29811
Joined: Fri Jul 16, 2004 4:00 pm
Location: Location: Location!

Re: The Voynich Manuscript

Post by DrMatt » Fri Feb 21, 2014 2:05 am

Anybody watch the video? It'd be pretty funny if scholars spent a lot of time decoding the thing only to find out that it's a load of BS.
Grayman wrote:If masturbation led to homosexuality you'd think by now I'd at least have better fashion sense.

User avatar
Bruce
Posts: 20041
Joined: Wed Jun 09, 2004 11:46 pm
Title: Bruce of all Bruces
Location: Massachusetts

Re: The Voynich Manuscript

Post by Bruce » Fri Feb 21, 2014 5:37 am

DrMatt wrote:Anybody watch the video? It'd be pretty funny if scholars spent a lot of time decoding the thing only to find out that it's a load of BS.
Ahem. Bible code. (cough)
Such potential!

User avatar
silverdrake
Posts: 1611
Joined: Tue Jul 23, 2013 5:00 am
Title: Girlie Girl
Location: Right here

Re: The Voynich Manuscript

Post by silverdrake » Fri Feb 21, 2014 5:44 am

That Bible Code bullshit cracks me up everytime.

It's fun to watch the believers discuss what they found, and acting like it's something amazing and for TeH ReaLz.

User avatar
Bruce
Posts: 20041
Joined: Wed Jun 09, 2004 11:46 pm
Title: Bruce of all Bruces
Location: Massachusetts

Re: The Voynich Manuscript

Post by Bruce » Fri Feb 21, 2014 5:51 am

silverdrake wrote:That Bible Code bullshit cracks me up everytime.

It's fun to watch the believers discuss what they found, and acting like it's something amazing and for TeH ReaLz.
Just another episode on the "History" channel.

Image

Wife loves watching this guy for the lulz.
Such potential!

User avatar
silverdrake
Posts: 1611
Joined: Tue Jul 23, 2013 5:00 am
Title: Girlie Girl
Location: Right here

Re: The Voynich Manuscript

Post by silverdrake » Fri Feb 21, 2014 6:00 am

Omg that douche is the absolute WORST of the lot.

The shit that he believes is so ridiculous it's funny!

I bet Flounder worships him.

User avatar
Bruce
Posts: 20041
Joined: Wed Jun 09, 2004 11:46 pm
Title: Bruce of all Bruces
Location: Massachusetts

Re: The Voynich Manuscript

Post by Bruce » Fri Feb 21, 2014 6:10 am

silverdrake wrote:Omg that douche is the absolute WORST of the lot.

The shit that he believes is so ridiculous it's funny!

I bet Flounder worships him.
I have my doubts that he actually believes the shit he says. It's all so fake and deliberate. Right down to the way he says it. Speaking slowly and pausing........exactly the way Obama does...........so that you become spellbound by his words........and if you think about it...........if you really..........THINK..........about it............................................THAT...............is why.............
Image
Such potential!

User avatar
Witness
Posts: 20714
Joined: Thu Sep 19, 2013 5:50 pm

Re: The Voynich Manuscript

Post by Witness » Mon Sep 18, 2017 2:59 am

The Times (Literary Supplement) wrote:Voynich manuscript: the solution
NICHOLAS GIBBS

As someone with long experience of interpreting the Latin inscriptions on classical monuments and the tombs and brasses in English parish churches, I recognized in the Voynich script tell-tale signs of an abbreviated Latin format. But interpretation of such abbreviations depends largely on the context in which they are used. I needed to understand the copious illustrations that accompany the text.
[…]
I am also a muralist and war artist with an understanding of the workings of picture narration, an advantage I was able to capitalize on for my research. A chance remark just over three years ago brought me a com­mission from a television production company to analyse the illustrations of the Voynich manuscript and examine the commentators’ theories. By this time the manuscript had been carbon-dated to the early fifteenth century. One of the more notable aspects of the manuscript were the illustrations on a bathing theme, so it seemed logical to have a look at the bathing practices of the medieval period. It became fairly obvious very early on that I had entered the realms of medieval medicine.
[…]
I consulted the Lexicon Abbreviaturarum of medieval Latin (1899) by Adriano Cappelli, sometimes referred to as the medievalists’ Bible. Systematic study of every single character in the Lexicon identified further ligatures and abbreviations in the Voynich manuscript and set a precedent. It became obvious that each character in the Voynich manuscript represented an abbreviated word and not a letter.
Image

Judge for yourself (it's an interesting read): https://www.the-tls.co.uk/articles/publ ... -solution/

User avatar
Grammatron
Posts: 34374
Joined: Tue Jun 08, 2004 1:21 am
Location: Los Angeles, CA

Re: The Voynich Manuscript

Post by Grammatron » Mon Sep 18, 2017 6:34 am


User avatar
Doctor X
Posts: 70693
Joined: Fri Jun 04, 2004 8:09 pm
Title: Collective Messiah
Location: Your Mom

Re: The Voynich Manuscript

Post by Doctor X » Mon Sep 18, 2017 6:46 am

Clearly it reads: "I will not buy this record. It is scratched."

--J.D.
Mob of the Mean: Free beanie, cattle-prod and Charley Fan Club!
"Doctor X is just treating you the way he treats everyone--as subhuman crap too dumb to breathe in after you breathe out."--Don
DocX: FTW.--sparks
"Doctor X wins again."--Pyrrho
"Never sorry to make a racist Fucktard cry."--His Humble MagNIfIcence
"It was the criticisms of Doc X, actually, that let me see more clearly how far the hypocrisy had gone."--clarsct
"I'd leave it up to Doctor X who has been a benevolent tyrant so far."--Grammatron
"Indeed you are a river to your people.
Shit. That's going to end up in your sig."--Pyrrho
"Try a twelve step program and accept Doctor X as your High Power."--asthmatic camel
"just like Doc X said." --gnome

ImageWS CHAMPIONS X4!!!! ImageNBA CHAMPIONS!! Stanley Cup!Image SB CHAMPIONS X6!!!!!! Image

User avatar
Witness
Posts: 20714
Joined: Thu Sep 19, 2013 5:50 pm

Re: The Voynich Manuscript

Post by Witness » Wed Sep 20, 2017 1:41 am

Grammatron wrote:I thought it was debunked already
Rats! I missed that. :oops: They get debunked faster than they can create the stuff! :x

I've been puzzled by this part of the VM Wiki page:
There are no indications of any errors or corrections made at any place in the document. The ductus flows smoothly, giving the impression that the symbols were not enciphered; there is no delay between characters, as would normally be expected in written encoded text.

The text consists of over 170,000 characters[…]
I haven't looked at all the thread, so perhaps it's redundant, but the manuscript is online: http://www.bibliotecapleyades.net/Cienc ... ito07a.htm.