The UK thread

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Giz
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Re: The UK thread

Post by Giz »

Doctor X wrote: Sun Jul 11, 2021 3:20 am I consider that tendency "bi-" or even "multi-" or, perhaps, "meta-partisan."
– J.D.
“Human “
Doctor X
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Re: The UK thread

Post by Doctor X »

But not "huwomyn?"

– J.D.
asthmatic camel
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Re: The UK thread

Post by asthmatic camel »

Doctor X wrote: Sun Jul 11, 2021 3:20 am You can see how quickly [Straw – Ed.] people are willing to toss rules when it benefits them. I consider that tendency "bi-" or even "multi-" or, perhaps, "meta-partisan." There are cases from every "party" or "group" that excuses breaking the rules for "the Greater Good."

– J.D.
A legacy of the British Empire, (which contained far more Muslims than Christians), is that we have a substantial Muslim population, around 5%. Many, if not most of them, take their religion extremely seriously. It's guaranteed that perceived insults against Islam will have serious consequences, so what do the lawmakers do? Make a stand on principle and watch the consequences, (riots, murders, etc.), or attempt to keep the peace as well as they can?
Giz
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Re: The UK thread

Post by Giz »

asthmatic camel wrote: Sun Jul 11, 2021 2:56 pm
Doctor X wrote: Sun Jul 11, 2021 3:20 am You can see how quickly [Straw – Ed.] people are willing to toss rules when it benefits them. I consider that tendency "bi-" or even "multi-" or, perhaps, "meta-partisan." There are cases from every "party" or "group" that excuses breaking the rules for "the Greater Good."

– J.D.
A legacy of the British Empire, (which contained far more Muslims than Christians), is that we have a substantial Muslim population, around 5%. Many, if not most of them, take their religion extremely seriously. It's guaranteed that perceived insults against Islam will have serious consequences, so what do the lawmakers do? Make a stand on principle and watch the consequences, (riots, murders, etc.), or attempt to keep the peace as well as they can?
You think accepting rule by lynchmobs is an acceptable compromise for a quiet life?
asthmatic camel
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Re: The UK thread

Post by asthmatic camel »

Giz wrote: Sun Jul 11, 2021 3:01 pm
asthmatic camel wrote: Sun Jul 11, 2021 2:56 pm
Doctor X wrote: Sun Jul 11, 2021 3:20 am You can see how quickly [Straw – Ed.] people are willing to toss rules when it benefits them. I consider that tendency "bi-" or even "multi-" or, perhaps, "meta-partisan." There are cases from every "party" or "group" that excuses breaking the rules for "the Greater Good."

– J.D.
A legacy of the British Empire, (which contained far more Muslims than Christians), is that we have a substantial Muslim population, around 5%. Many, if not most of them, take their religion extremely seriously. It's guaranteed that perceived insults against Islam will have serious consequences, so what do the lawmakers do? Make a stand on principle and watch the consequences, (riots, murders, etc.), or attempt to keep the peace as well as they can?
You think accepting rule by lynchmobs is an acceptable compromise for a quiet life?
No, I don't. I'm no fan of Islam, (nor of any religion), but it's here and it's here to stay. I was asking a question. What should the lawmakers do?
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Re: The UK thread

Post by Giz »

asthmatic camel wrote: Sun Jul 11, 2021 3:09 pm
Giz wrote: Sun Jul 11, 2021 3:01 pm
asthmatic camel wrote: Sun Jul 11, 2021 2:56 pm
Doctor X wrote: Sun Jul 11, 2021 3:20 am You can see how quickly [Straw – Ed.] people are willing to toss rules when it benefits them. I consider that tendency "bi-" or even "multi-" or, perhaps, "meta-partisan." There are cases from every "party" or "group" that excuses breaking the rules for "the Greater Good."

– J.D.
A legacy of the British Empire, (which contained far more Muslims than Christians), is that we have a substantial Muslim population, around 5%. Many, if not most of them, take their religion extremely seriously. It's guaranteed that perceived insults against Islam will have serious consequences, so what do the lawmakers do? Make a stand on principle and watch the consequences, (riots, murders, etc.), or attempt to keep the peace as well as they can?
You think accepting rule by lynchmobs is an acceptable compromise for a quiet life?
No, I don't. I'm no fan of Islam, (nor of any religion), but it's here and it's here to stay. I was asking a question. What should the lawmakers do?
When a sheriff sees an angry mob outside his jail, demanding he hand over a prisoner to be lynched, what should he do?


Hint: sometimes doing the right thing is hard. But the cost to civil society in the long term will be worse.


We’ve been through this with Christianity. Should do the same with Islam.
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Re: The UK thread

Post by asthmatic camel »

If you see a large, dangerous animal, what should you do? Poke it with a sharp stick?

What are your suggestions for "doing the same with Islam"?
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Re: The UK thread

Post by Giz »

asthmatic camel wrote: Sun Jul 11, 2021 3:31 pm If you see a large, dangerous animal, what should you do? Poke it with a sharp stick?

What are your suggestions for "doing the same with Islam"?
“Poking an animal with a stick” is not morally the same thing as “enforcement of civic values & freedoms that have been painfully acquired over centuries of struggle “
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Re: The UK thread

Post by asthmatic camel »

UK Muslims are subject to exactly the same laws as everyone else. Some of them want sharia law to apply to them specifically and Archbishop Rowan Williams suggested that in some circumstances, such as in mediation of family disputes, it should be available as an alternative. I'm strongly opposed to this: the law is the law and religion should play no part in it.

On the other hand, one of the civic freedoms painfully acquired over centuries of struggle is the right to freedom of, (and from), religion and religious expression. Under the UK Human Rights act it is a "right and fundamental freedom". People are free to choose and practice any religion as long as doing so does not contravene the law. I don't see laws against incitement to racial or religious hatred as being incompatible with this.

We also have laws against certain practices common in some Islamic countries, such as forced marriage and female genital mutilation: it's not all one-way.

One might hope that as the years progress, Islam in Britain follows the same decline that Christianity has but I seriously doubt that it will happen to any significant degree in my lifetime.

Meanwhile, if this kind of shit can be avoided in my area, I'm grudgingly open to some give and take.
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Re: The UK thread

Post by ceptimus »

asthmatic camel wrote: Sun Jul 11, 2021 5:43 pm We also have laws against certain practices common in some Islamic countries, such as forced marriage and female genital mutilation: it's not all one-way.
But these laws are almost never enforced. How many people have been prosecuted and jailed for breaking these laws? Contrast that number (if you can find it) with the estimates of the number of offenders.
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Re: The UK thread

Post by Doctor X »

asthmatic camel wrote:. . . so what do the lawmakers do? Make a stand on principle and watch the consequences, (riots, murders, etc.), or attempt to keep the peace as well as they can?
Maybe enforce the laws?

Or why bother trying to stop the IRA or UDLWhatever from bombing and killing for sectarian reasons? "It's only going to piss them off."

"Sins of omission": they only reward the evil. Then every other intolerant fucktard just has to gather enough people to cow everyone else. That is not democracy.

– J.D.
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Re: The UK thread

Post by ed »

Well put
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Re: The UK thread

Post by asthmatic camel »

ceptimus wrote: Sun Jul 11, 2021 6:22 pm
asthmatic camel wrote: Sun Jul 11, 2021 5:43 pm We also have laws against certain practices common in some Islamic countries, such as forced marriage and female genital mutilation: it's not all one-way.
But these laws are almost never enforced. How many people have been prosecuted and jailed for breaking these laws? Contrast that number (if you can find it) with the estimates of the number of offenders.
Pretty tough when police numbers have fallen year by year under this government: tried reporting a crime recently? Pretty tough anyway. Mum & Dad book a family holiday back home and bring daughter back with vagina sewn up and/or clitoris removed. It's horrendous.

The laws are there, lack of enforcement is a failure of government. I asked Giz for his suggestions earlier but received none.

There are over three million Muslims in Britain, roughly the population of Wales or Greater Manchester. We have 120,000 police officers and 196,140 serving in the armed forces. The numbers don't stack up too well when it comes to "enforcement".
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Re: The UK thread

Post by Doctor X »

So the answer is to prosecute anyone else who does not like it?

Who criticizes it?

– J.D.
Giz
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Re: The UK thread

Post by Giz »

asthmatic camel wrote: Mon Jul 12, 2021 5:18 am
ceptimus wrote: Sun Jul 11, 2021 6:22 pm
asthmatic camel wrote: Sun Jul 11, 2021 5:43 pm We also have laws against certain practices common in some Islamic countries, such as forced marriage and female genital mutilation: it's not all one-way.
But these laws are almost never enforced. How many people have been prosecuted and jailed for breaking these laws? Contrast that number (if you can find it) with the estimates of the number of offenders.
Pretty tough when police numbers have fallen year by year under this government: tried reporting a crime recently? Pretty tough anyway. Mum & Dad book a family holiday back home and bring daughter back with vagina sewn up and/or clitoris removed. It's horrendous.

The laws are there, lack of enforcement is a failure of government. I asked Giz for his suggestions earlier but received none.

There are over three million Muslims in Britain, roughly the population of Wales or Greater Manchester. We have 120,000 police officers and 196,140 serving in the armed forces. The numbers don't stack up too well when it comes to "enforcement".
Perhaps if they stopped wasting time arresting 3000+ people a year for mean tweets, it would free up some time for serious crimes? Reallocate their resources.
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Re: The UK thread

Post by asthmatic camel »

Maybe it would. If I had all the answers, my scrawny arse would replace Boris Johnson's far more luxuriant buttocks behind the desk at No. 10.
Witness
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Re: The UK thread

Post by Witness »

https://i.imgur.com/Z17Hihl.png

Will we have to go through the whole process of declawing a religion, again? :|
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Re: The UK thread

Post by Doctor X »

asthmatic camel wrote: Mon Jul 12, 2021 3:26 pm Maybe it would. If I had all the answers, my scrawny arse would replace Boris Johnson's far more luxuriant buttocks behind the desk at No. 10.
And if I did, after you occupied No. 10, you would still have to make an appointment to see me.




Unless you promised to wear the habit.

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Re: The UK thread

Post by asthmatic camel »

Witness wrote: Tue Jul 13, 2021 12:38 am https://i.imgur.com/Z17Hihl.png

Will we have to go through the whole process of declawing a religion, again? :|
Looks like it, although things weren't always the way they are now. Islamic extremism is a relatively new phenomenon.
By 1911, the British Empire had a Muslim population of 94 million, larger than the empire's 58 million Christian population.[23] By the 1920s, the British Empire included roughly half of the world's Muslim population.[22] More than 400,000 Muslim soldiers of the British Indian Army fought for Britain during World War I, where 62,060 were killed in action.[35] Muslim soldiers of the British Indian Army later fought for Britain against the Nazis in World War II,[36] where Muslim soldiers accounted for up to 40%[37] of the 2.5 million troops serving the British Indian Army.[38] David Lloyd George, British Prime Minister from 1916 to 1922, stated: "we are the greatest Mahomedan power in the world and one-fourth of the population of the British Empire is Mahomedan. There have been no more loyal adherents to the throne and no more effective and loyal supporters of the Empire in its hour of trial." This statement was later reiterated by Gandhi in 1920.[21] Winston Churchill also stated in 1942: "We must not on any account break with the Moslems, who represent a hundred million people, and the main army elements on which we must rely for the immediate fighting".[37]
There are plenty of Muslims locally and my personal experience is entirely positive: my gorgeous female dentist is a Muslim, our car mechanic, Yusuf, is the friendliest, most scrupulously honest guy you could wish to meet, for example. The idea that all Muslims are Quran-thumping, child-mutilating, wannabe terrorists is entirely false.
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Re: The UK thread

Post by Pyrrho »

NSFW:
Link:

Ben Trovado
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Re: The UK thread

Post by Ben Trovado »

Pyrrho wrote: Tue Jul 13, 2021 11:06 am
NSFW:
Link: https://twitter.com/EasingwoldPaul/status/1414880151012261888

The NSFW scared me, but the lack of link worries me more.
Witness
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Re: The UK thread

Post by Witness »

asthmatic camel wrote: Tue Jul 13, 2021 3:24 am Looks like it, although things weren't always the way they are now. Islamic extremism is a relatively new phenomenon.
It's not only extremism. As I see it, what changed from post-WWII is that they now tend to want to remain apart, not blend in.

asthmatic camel wrote: Tue Jul 13, 2021 3:24 am
By 1911, the British Empire […] fighting".[37]
You have since been kicked out. :mrgreen:

asthmatic camel wrote: Tue Jul 13, 2021 3:24 am There are plenty of Muslims locally and my personal experience is entirely positive: my gorgeous female dentist is a Muslim, our car mechanic, Yusuf, is the friendliest, most scrupulously honest guy you could wish to meet, for example. The idea that all Muslims are Quran-thumping, child-mutilating, wannabe terrorists is entirely false.
I doubt anybody here believes that.
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Re: The UK thread

Post by Giz »

I think a major issue is, post world wars, the lack of civilizational confidence in the west. It’s hard to insist on assimilation and integration when you lack confidence in yourself. And it’s harder to convince people that they should join and value a system that you hold in contempt.
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Re: The UK thread

Post by asthmatic camel »

Witness wrote: Fri Jul 16, 2021 2:02 am
asthmatic camel wrote: Tue Jul 13, 2021 3:24 am Looks like it, although things weren't always the way they are now. Islamic extremism is a relatively new phenomenon.
It's not only extremism. As I see it, what changed from post-WWII is that they now tend to want to remain apart, not blend in.
Some do, and I see examples of this locally, (Islamic schools etc.) Muslims are a very diverse group, however, and it's just as difficult to define a "typical Muslim" as it is to define a "typical Christian." A few things I picked up while we've been having this discussion: When asked if they're proud to be British, Muslims are significantly more likely to say yes than native Brits. While most Muslims vote Labour, their opinions tend to be more right-wing than average. When asked, the majority of Muslims said that they would prefer to live in mixed communities. While male circumcision is universal in Islam, female circumcision, (aka FGM and cutting), is not: it's almost certainly a cultural tradition that pre-dates Islam. Linky.
Witness wrote: Fri Jul 16, 2021 2:02 am
asthmatic camel wrote: Tue Jul 13, 2021 3:24 am There are plenty of Muslims locally and my personal experience is entirely positive: my gorgeous female dentist is a Muslim, our car mechanic, Yusuf, is the friendliest, most scrupulously honest guy you could wish to meet, for example. The idea that all Muslims are Quran-thumping, child-mutilating, wannabe terrorists is entirely false.
I doubt anybody here believes that.
So do I.

My biggest problem with Islam is that it's very difficult, even dangerous, to leave: at best, you risk ostracisation, at worse, death. That certainly doesn't fit well with our right to freedom of religion.
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Re: The UK thread

Post by Doctor X »

There was someone HERE who worried that Muslim doctors in America would inject people with HIV.

The problem with Islam is it is "stuck" in the "Seville, 1483" Stage of religious development. As with most religions, and as asthmatic noted, a lot of the dogma accreeded . . . acretion disk . . . congealed . . . accumulated over centuries. Cultural dogma was read into the religion with texts created or interpreted to justify it. Yes . . . the Qur'an has a history of development. It is also a mess that does not always make sense even in the Japanese Arabic Original. That allows one to torture the text to justify just about anything.

Here is the problem . . . of many . . . the Assholes and Cunts cause the most damage.

In the rain.

– J.D.
Witness
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Re: The UK thread

Post by Witness »

asthmatic camel wrote: Sat Jul 17, 2021 1:24 pm (Islamic schools etc.)
Good point.

I presume it is compulsory education + Islamic school, or are there "accommodations"?

asthmatic camel wrote: Sat Jul 17, 2021 1:24 pm Muslims are a very diverse group, however, and it's just as difficult to define a "typical Muslim" as it is to define a "typical Christian."
Indeed. Most Muslims aren't even Arabs.

asthmatic camel wrote: Sat Jul 17, 2021 1:24 pm My biggest problem with Islam is that it's very difficult, even dangerous, to leave: at best, you risk ostracisation, at worse, death. That certainly doesn't fit well with our right to freedom of religion.
Another good point. That's where the fangs have to be pulled.
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Re: The UK thread

Post by asthmatic camel »

Witness wrote: Tue Jul 20, 2021 12:54 am
asthmatic camel wrote: Sat Jul 17, 2021 1:24 pm (Islamic schools etc.)
Good point.

I presume it is compulsory education + Islamic school, or are there "accommodations"?
It's complex. Private schools and home schooling have always been allowed in the UK but must now include the National Curriculum in what is taught. David Cameron's government introduced the concept of Academies, which allowed publicly funded schools to become largely independent of local authority control. Church schools have been around for a long time, (they are generally very good and places are prized by parents, religious or not.) So, Islamic schools are entirely legal so long as they include the National Curriculum. All schools are subject to Ofsted inspections and can be placed under government control, ("special measures"), if minimum standards are not maintained.

asthmatic camel wrote: Sat Jul 17, 2021 1:24 pm Muslims are a very diverse group, however, and it's just as difficult to define a "typical Muslim" as it is to define a "typical Christian."
Indeed. Most Muslims aren't even Arabs.

Nor do most speak Arabic, although they are generally expected to learn and recite the Quran in Arabic.
Translations of the Qur'an exist in over 40 languages but Muslims are still taught to learn and recite it in Arabic, even if this is not their native language and they cannot converse in it.
Linky

asthmatic camel wrote: Sat Jul 17, 2021 1:24 pm My biggest problem with Islam is that it's very difficult, even dangerous, to leave: at best, you risk ostracisation, at worse, death. That certainly doesn't fit well with our right to freedom of religion.
Another good point. That's where the fangs have to be pulled.


Tricky. Islam isn't the only religion where this is a problem. Although there is no concept of blasphemy or apostasy in Hinduism, for example, extremist Hindus have been known to murder people who have left the religion or criticised it. Similarly, the Jehovah's Witnesses and other cults commonly ostracise people who leave and Roman Catholics take a dim view of people leaving the faith.
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Re: The UK thread

Post by Giz »

asthmatic camel wrote: Wed Jul 21, 2021 9:57 am

Tricky. Islam isn't the only religion where this is a problem. Although there is no concept of blasphemy or apostasy in Hinduism, for example, extremist Hindus have been known to murder people who have left the religion or criticised it. Similarly, the Jehovah's Witnesses and other cults commonly ostracise people who leave and Roman Catholics take a dim view of people leaving the faith.
Ostracizing/shunning are different to killing apostates though, morally as in magnitude.

Shunning is people exercising their freedom of association. That’s rather different to [permanently] denying others freedom.

I think that they are dissimilar enough to not be viewed as the same problem. (Imagine if during the Middle Ages, the inquisition has just given heretics a good shunning instead of burning them… not the same problem at all)
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Re: The UK thread

Post by Giz »

Attitudes to free speech in the UK:

“ A new poll for The Spectator conducted by Redfield and Wilton reveals that some 40 per cent of the public would support the government censoring books with content that it deems 'sexist, homophobic, or racist'. Of the 1,500 surveyed, only 30 per cent would oppose this, with 29 per cent either neutral on the proposal or 'don’t know'. Steerpike wonders what the reaction would be if Salman Rushdie was to publish his controversial work The Satanic Verses today.

Slightly more back private companies carrying out the role of judging what is and is not acceptable, with 42 per cent in support of publishers 'coming together to censor books with content that they deem sexist, homophobic, or racist.' Less than a third of voters – 30 per cent – would oppose this, with again 29 per cent uncertain or neutral on the issue. Sixty years after the Lady Chatterley's Lover verdict, are the British public now abandoning its support for the right to offend?

With today's news that online trolling is to become a criminal offence in the week of last week's Euros final, it's no surprise to see such attitudes harden when the same questions are asked of tech firms. Asked whether social media companies should censor content that they deem sexist, homophobic, or racist, a majority – 62 per cent – would support this, with 18 per cent opposed – and 21 per cent either 'neither support or oppose' or don’t know. ”
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Re: The UK thread

Post by Ben Trovado »

Giz wrote: Wed Jul 21, 2021 2:24 pm Attitudes to free speech in the UK:

Yikes.

Since the Brits are done with him, can we adopt John Stuart Mill over here?
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Re: The UK thread

Post by Giz »

Ben Trovado wrote: Wed Jul 21, 2021 2:37 pm
Giz wrote: Wed Jul 21, 2021 2:24 pm Attitudes to free speech in the UK:

Yikes.

Since the Brits are done with him, can we adopt John Stuart Mill over here?
The average Brit has no idea who that is.
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Re: The UK thread

Post by Giz »

And, in school news:

“ An independent Muslim boarding school has failed its Ofsted inspection after a book calling for gay people to be killed was found in its library.

Inspectors said the text, named 'Islam on Homosexuality', had been stamped as a library book by the Institute of Islamic Education in Dewsbury, West Yorkshire.”

Presumably found next to a book on cranes.
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Re: The UK thread

Post by sparks »

How fucking charming.
Witness
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Re: The UK thread

Post by Witness »

Giz wrote: Wed Jul 21, 2021 2:24 pm are the British public now abandoning its support for the right to offend?
Not to defend censorship in any way, but a lot of offending things are already off limits.

First time I flew to Greece I was given a Greek paper. Front page was a big color picture of some bloated corpse dragged out of the water. Yikes! (There is, or was, also a Greek daily with a math column. We don't have much of these either. It's very troubling to see math written in Greek…)

Car accidents often result in horrible injuries. The worst you get to see in the news is some body covered by a blanket or a survivor in the hospital. Perhaps it would raise risk awareness if the media were a tad less reserved?

Similar remarks apply to war (including in schoolbooks), industrial accidents, and all the usual (← this one's for Grammy) nastyness on the planet.

Just a tangential remark. I don't really want to see all that either. Carry on.
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Re: The UK thread

Post by Giz »

“Speakers' Corner, best known as the northeast corner of Hyde Park in London and emblematic of free expression in England, was the shocking site of a brutal daytime stabbing attack Sunday by an unidentified black-clad assailant.”

(Victim was an ex-Muslim, preaching against Islam)
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Re: The UK thread

Post by Pyrrho »

Witness
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Re: The UK thread

Post by Witness »

https://i.imgur.com/1Q6ObLq.jpeg
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Re: The UK thread

Post by Witness »

London's Tower Bridge stuck open after technical failure

https://i.imgur.com/7kKj7wq.jpeg

The famous landmark was scheduled to open this afternoon to allow a large wooden tall ship through, but it appears to have become jammed in place.

City of London Police said the 127-year-old crossing had been closed to both traffic and pedestrians "due to technical failure".
...
The bridge, which took eight years to build and opened in 1894, normally opens about 800 times every year.

It previously got jammed in August last year when a mechanical fault meant it was stuck open for more than an hour.
https://www.bbc.com/news/uk-england-london-58149716


I blame sparks. :x
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Re: The UK thread

Post by Grammatron »

Interesting how it last broke 1 year ago on the same month.
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Re: The UK thread

Post by Doctor X »

This is interesting.

A former member who had awesome t-shirts but no working toilets, muttered to me about this: buying lordships.

Sounds like a complete scam, as he indicated, as in, no, fuck no, you are not a "proper lord" like this guy:

https://resizing.flixster.com/AS9cW-2ec ... 0_full.jpg

who is not only Baron Haddon Guest, he is married to:

https://c8.alamy.com/comp/2D57XW3/holly ... D57XW3.jpg

which means you all suck.
In her talk with Kevin Pollock in his now, sadly, ended podcast, she noted how serious he is. As in almost humorless outside of doing his work. So when he was officially invested, he was very concerned that all, including his wife, behave. He is very liberal, and did not care to fight to retain the right to actually sit and vote in the House of Lords, but he still took this seriously.

So Jamie Lee dutifully followed. Inside, she saw one of the functionaries and, needing to release some of the seriousness, jokingly asked if there was a gift shop. Lord Christopher stared daggers at her, but the man, in Proper Received Accent, informed "her ladyship" that, indeed, the House of Lords does and directed her to it.

She noted that she, and his Mum, did go there, "and we got a lot of swag!" After all of that, as they were leaving, the same man asked if "her ladyship" was happy with the gift shop.

Lifting a bag, Jamie Lee Curtis responded that she bought the House of Lords G-String.
. . . but is it really a scam? Worth the watch, actually:





– J.D.