Psychic Sal awarded £125.000 in damages.

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Psychic Sal awarded £125.000 in damages.

Post by CrackProof2013 » Fri Sep 06, 2013 1:31 am

Is it only me that is outraged by this? For those who may not be aware of the full story, i'll try and give a brief run down of the general details.

'Psychic' Sally, one of the UK best known psychics, was awarded £125.000 in damages by The Daily Mail after publishing an article claiming she may not be a genuine psychic and the voices she hears may not be from the dead, but from a ear piece she wears while on stage. Sally has made a point of pointing out that that the damages were for accusing her of wearing a device in her ear to receive information.
Sally issued a statement saying: "It was an unjustified and unfair attack and it has been a very difficult. There will always be sceptics who attack my work and I understand and accept that. However, to libel me and falsely accuse me of a con trick does not constitute rational commentary or debate. I hope now this settlement and apology will repair the damage that has been done."
Let's look at that again...

"It was an unjustified and unfair attack" I'm in tears as we speak.
"There will always be sceptics who attack my work and I understand and accept that" Yes, because you refuse to submit to controlled tests preferring instead to state what many other top 'Psychics' also claim, 'It doesn't work like that'.
"to libel me and falsely accuse me of a con trick does not constitute rational commentary or debate." Rational Commentary or Debate! So she's arguing "The paper and it's claim was irrational! How dare they accuse me of not really talking to dead people?"
"I hope now this settlement and apology will repair the damage that has been done." Yes, that what you wanted more tha anything wasn't it, an apology. The new kitchen and 3 new cars were insignificant to the apology! Lets hope the next damages you receive comes from the venue's roof collapsing.

And the best part about it? Who advised she take legal action? Uri Geller! I'm hyperventilating at this point when first reading it!

This makes me absolutely livid in all seriousness! Today we live in a society where it seems that you can make a completely extraordinary claim, and with no basic evidence let alone extraordinary evidence, and anyone who publically dismisses you as a possible fraud can be sued for hundreds of thousands of Pounds. Why didn't the Mail contest it instead of settling out of court? "We'll agree we are liable and inaccurate in our claim, when you do 3 live shows and 3 personal reading that are controlled by the watchful eye of James Randi. Produce results similar to your other previous shows with this sanction in place, and we'll gladly admit liable and pay up?" Would she proceed with Legal action if this was what was required before £125.000 be awarded? Without any psychic ability myself, I believe it's about 99.9% likely she would drop the civil action instantly.
The article goes on to say...


'Enormous distress' (Not just any distress, this was Enormous!)

"Her lawyer, Graham Atkins, had told the court: "She has performed in over 600 shows in more than 100 different theatres or venues to audiences stretching into the hundreds of thousands." And?? So What? Is he implying this is somehow proof that Mrs Morgan can communicate with invisible entities?

One article claimed That Sally felt suicidal in the wake of the publication of the offending article but her husband was there for her and gave her strength to carry on. Having had someone close to me commit suicide as a result of bipolar depression, I find it deplorable and view it with sheer contempt her trying to gain a sympathetic ear by saying she was on the verge of committing suicide. A Christopher Hitchens declaration of utter annoyance comes to mind: "HOW DARE YOU!"
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Re: Psychic Sal awarded £125.000 in damages.

Post by asthmatic camel » Fri Sep 06, 2013 1:48 am

I watched one of her TV shows once. Same old shit, different day.

I am rather surprised that the Daily Fail decided to settle out of court.
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Re: Psychic Sal awarded £125.000 in damages.

Post by CrackProof2013 » Fri Sep 06, 2013 2:17 am

How is it this 'profession' is not held to the same standard as other, slightly more genuine, professions? What if I decided that tomorrow I am going to rent a vacant building, put a few desks in a few offices, and hang a sign over the main entrance that declared "GP Surgery" on it? Then I opened up the place and took registration forms from people wishing to join my 'practise' and even had a PA system and everything! "Miss Stevens to see doctor Alex in room 6 please." And after 3 months of me claiming an ability to diagnose the sick, a reporter for The Daily Mail publishes an article entitled "GP Alex may not be able to do what he claims to be able to do." I then am asked do I have a response to this allegation and I will declare

" Because of the Enormous Distress this has caused me I am going to kill myself without further delay! What was that Uri? File for damages did you say? Sorry Uri say that again, only I though for a moment there you said something about being in excess of A Hundred Grand. Oh you did?? Well I don't care about the money Uri, it's the apology I want more than anything. I will scoff at £125.000 and swat it to one side and declare it secondary to that all important 'Sorry' declaration. Just out of curiosity Uri, are you selling your houseboat?"

No that would not happen because I would not be able to get as far as ever seeing one patient as an unqualified, non trained graduate of medical school. These professions which we trust to be able to give us an accurate assessment and then advise us on the next step we should take are overseen by Governing Bodies. Why aren't Mediums feet held to the same fire? I bet there are many out there who entrust their psychic to tell them if this lump is fatty tissue or something far more sinister and accept the psychics advise that the spirits say it nothing to worry about but to go and have it checked if you want to put your mind at rest? Where's watchdog featuring these products on its show that don't do what they claim they do on the tin?
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Re: Psychic Sal awarded £125.000 in damages.

Post by CrackProof2013 » Fri Sep 06, 2013 2:24 am

asthmatic camel wrote:I watched one of her TV shows once. Same old shit, different day.

I am rather surprised that the Daily Fail decided to settle out of court.
They settled because Sally specifically claimed for the paper accusing her of using an ear piece to cheat. Not that she cheats in any other way or in general, but she sued for that specific allegation. She did that because she knows they can't prove she did use a radio ear piece to receive info. She didn't claim damages because the paper accused her in general of using deception to gain her results because she knew that left it open to argument and a counter claim of the Mail countering with "Ok prove us wrong by submitting to your next 3 stage shows being overseen by James Randi (for example), and the next three one on one reading the sitter picked by Darren Brown, and if you achieve the same or similar results then as you do now, we'll admit you proved us wrong and we'll pay you £300.000 compensation. I guarantee if a Judge granted that order we'd have 'Psychic Sally on the floor'.
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Re: Psychic Sal awarded £125.000 in damages.

Post by asthmatic camel » Fri Sep 06, 2013 2:26 am

All you'd have to do is put "this doctor's surgery is for entertainment purposes only" in very small letters on the sign.

It's a breeze.
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Re: Psychic Sal awarded £125.000 in damages.

Post by Doctor X » Fri Sep 06, 2013 2:28 am

CrackProof2013 wrote: They settled because Sally specifically claimed for the paper accusing her of using an ear piece to cheat. Not that she cheats in any other way or in general, but she sued for that specific allegation. She did that because she knows they can't prove she did use a radio ear piece to receive info.
They were fools for publishing specific allegations for which they did not have evidence.

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Re: Psychic Sal awarded £125.000 in damages.

Post by CrackProof2013 » Fri Sep 06, 2013 2:30 am

But what makes me so outraged about this 'settlement' is that we ive in a World where a child died ever few seconds because of starvation, disease, drinking filthy water and a variety of other easily avoidable reasons and we are presenting lying, fraudulent people like that with 125 grand! What is wrong with this World? How many children could be fed and babies lives saved for £125 thousand quid? It's just laughable to give her 125 grand because you can't prove she is a fake because she will not take a test to prove she isn't!
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Re: Psychic Sal awarded £125.000 in damages.

Post by CrackProof2013 » Fri Sep 06, 2013 2:33 am

Doctor X wrote:
CrackProof2013 wrote: They settled because Sally specifically claimed for the paper accusing her of using an ear piece to cheat. Not that she cheats in any other way or in general, but she sued for that specific allegation. She did that because she knows they can't prove she did use a radio ear piece to receive info.
They were fools for publishing specific allegations for which they did not have evidence.

--J.D.

Well ok if we are going to use that reasoning then we should instantly bring a lawsuit against her for being a fool and making a specific claim of talking to deceased people which she has no evidence for?
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Re: Psychic Sal awarded £125.000 in damages.

Post by Doctor X » Fri Sep 06, 2013 2:34 am

CrackProof2013 wrote:What is wrong with this World?
The Daily Mail, apparently.
How many children could be fed and babies lives saved for £125 thousand quid?
The Daily Mail intended to donate these funds to various children's charities?
It's just laughable to give her 125 grand because you can't prove she is a fake. . . .
No.

She was given 125 grand because The Daily Mail posted a claim for which they had no evidence. The press really should not do that.

The law applies to everyone--be they scumbags or saints.

--J.D.
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"Doctor X is just treating you the way he treats everyone--as subhuman crap too dumb to breathe in after you breathe out."--Don
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"Doctor X wins again."--Pyrrho
"Never sorry to make a racist Fucktard cry."--His Humble MagNIfIcence
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Shit. That's going to end up in your sig."--Pyrrho
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Re: Psychic Sal awarded £125.000 in damages.

Post by Doctor X » Fri Sep 06, 2013 2:40 am

CrackProof2013 wrote:Well ok if we are going to use that reasoning then we should instantly. . . .
Then ye do not understand "reasoning."
. . . bring a lawsuit against her for being a fool. . . .
While my expertise in British Law is not nearly as formidable American Law--the Law & Order UK being poorly rendered scripts from the Japanese American Original--they cannot be bothered to write their own stories--I am unaware that "being a fool" is a tort.
. . . as and making a specific claim of talking to deceased people which she has no evidence for?
See inclusion of "for entertainment purposes" and all of that above. If you wish to argue that such people should not be able to make money by pretending such, that is another topic entirely--a non sequitur. That would open a small kettle of koi. However, the fact remains this case turned on the point that The Daily Mail made a claim for which they had either no or insufficient evidence. I would argue "no" since even in a theocracy like the United Kingdom which suffers under National Health and boring sports, the press has protections against frivolous libel claims.

--J.D.
Mob of the Mean: Free beanie, cattle-prod and Charley Fan Club!
"Doctor X is just treating you the way he treats everyone--as subhuman crap too dumb to breathe in after you breathe out."--Don
DocX: FTW.--sparks
"Doctor X wins again."--Pyrrho
"Never sorry to make a racist Fucktard cry."--His Humble MagNIfIcence
"It was the criticisms of Doc X, actually, that let me see more clearly how far the hypocrisy had gone."--clarsct
"I'd leave it up to Doctor X who has been a benevolent tyrant so far."--Grammatron
"Indeed you are a river to your people.
Shit. That's going to end up in your sig."--Pyrrho
"Try a twelve step program and accept Doctor X as your High Power."--asthmatic camel
"just like Doc X said." --gnome

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Re: Psychic Sal awarded £125.000 in damages.

Post by asthmatic camel » Fri Sep 06, 2013 2:49 am

The good Doctor has it right. If the Daily Wail had proof that Psychic Sal was wearing an earpiece when giving her "readings", she'd have lost and ended up with an enormous legal bill.

What I can say, without fear of legal action, is that this woman is using the same old hot and cold reading techniques which have been exposed here and elsewhere for a very long time.

It's fraud, but it's what a lot of people want.
Shit happens. The older you get, the more often shit happens. So you have to try not to give a shit even when you do. Because, if you give too many shits, you've created your own shit creek and there's no way out other than swimming through the shit. Oh, and fuck.

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Re: Psychic Sal awarded £125.000 in damages.

Post by CrackProof2013 » Fri Sep 06, 2013 3:04 am

How can it be deemed that she may sue you for making a specific claim against her that you cannot prove, yet she is above the law in this respect and we the average public may not bring a civil or criminal action against her for the very same offence of making a specific claim while having no evidence to support it at all? I though the law said all are equal under the law?

There is a Maxim in Law that says: 'A presumption will stand firm until proven to the contrary'

Well the presumption has to surely be 'People cannot talk to those that are no longer alive.' It's down to the burden of proof and who has it. Sadly, the person making the allegation. I think there a case in exceptional circumstances such as these to reverse the burden of proof because if I allege you are a fraud and you sue me, how is it possible that I produce proof that you can't communicate with dead people? This is absolutely impossible. The Burden of proof in such a case should be placed on the one who makes such a extraordinary claim to prove they can do it if for no other reason than it being impossible for the defendant to prove you cannot without the plaintiff submitting to controlled testing, which he/she will not do. A final maxim of Law that comes to mind as relevant is:

What is not proved and what does not exist are the same; it is not a defect of the law, but of proof.
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Re: Psychic Sal awarded £125.000 in damages.

Post by Doctor X » Fri Sep 06, 2013 3:19 am

CrackProof2013 wrote:How can it be deemed that she may sue you for making a specific claim against her that you cannot prove, . . .
British Libel Law
. . . and we the average public may not bring a civil or criminal action against her for the very same offence of making a specific claim while having no evidence to support it at all?
Not the same offense. She is not claiming others are doing things they are not doing.
I though the law said all are equal under the law?
All are. That is why The Daily Mail cannot commit libel against people even if they are Cunts.
There is a Maxim in Law
I would suggest that you stick with learning what the law actually is. We could tell you a hiLARIious story about a Danish guy and his kopjiwreicht theories. . . .

You are also free to start an action against her for what you claim. I would recommend you speak with a solicitor trained in British libel law to advise whether or not she has protected herself against claims of fraud. However, I doubt you will have much success since if you sue you would have to show that you suffered actual damages. "Emotional distress" and all of that is just puffery to try to coax an opponent to settle.
Well the presumption has to surely be 'People cannot talk to those that are no longer alive.'
In law? No. However, you are free to argue that such is impossible. A court of law, a civil action, all of that, are not exercises in rational thought and scientific investigation: they are exercises in law. I disagree with a very fundamental US Supreme Court decision--actually a few. I feel that subsequent law and decisions based on such are "irrational" and even "stinky."

They may be. Does not matter. What I must do is change the law. That famously happened with the infamous Dredd Scott decision, Brown vs. Topeka, and others.
It's down to the burden of proof and who has it. Sadly, the person making the allegation.
Not sadly at all. It should be the burden of the one making the allegation. Otherwise, I could claim, publicly, with your t3h r34lz name, that you [CENSORED--Ed.] orphans. Now one Humble--Yet MagNIfIcent--poster shouting such an accusation from a bucket in your villages' public latrine probably does not materially affect your ability to earn an income in your key cutting business to maintain you in the state in which you have become accustomed.

A newspaper? With the ability to reach the Entire World™?
I think there a case in exceptional circumstances such as these to reverse the burden of proof because if I allege you are a fraud and you sue me, how is it possible that I produce proof that you can't communicate with dead people?
Do not commit libel.

It is not terribly complicated.

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"Doctor X is just treating you the way he treats everyone--as subhuman crap too dumb to breathe in after you breathe out."--Don
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Shit. That's going to end up in your sig."--Pyrrho
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Re: Psychic Sal awarded £125.000 in damages.

Post by asthmatic camel » Fri Sep 06, 2013 3:23 am

See above. The Daily Wail Failed because they made an unsubstantiated claim.

Not too difficult.
Shit happens. The older you get, the more often shit happens. So you have to try not to give a shit even when you do. Because, if you give too many shits, you've created your own shit creek and there's no way out other than swimming through the shit. Oh, and fuck.

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Re: Psychic Sal awarded £125.000 in damages.

Post by CrackProof2013 » Fri Sep 06, 2013 3:26 am

asthmatic camel wrote:The good Doctor has it right. If the Daily Wail had proof that Psychic Sal was wearing an earpiece when giving her "readings", she'd have lost and ended up with an enormous legal bill.

What I can say, without fear of legal action, is that this woman is using the same old hot and cold reading techniques which have been exposed here and elsewhere for a very long time.

It's fraud, but it's what a lot of people want.
Yes I know what your saying, and I am not saying cold reading is something this sites members have not been aware of for years and years. What I am saying is, surely in the 21st Century, it's time to apply some common sense to a ruling or to the law in general in relation to this kind of thing? You know, a kinda "Before we hand over £125.000 cash, can't we at least argue that the means of deception is not what is really important here, it's the overall issue of having the ability to do what she claims without an ear piece, cold reading, hot reading, plants and whatever else. Are we really still not advanced enough as a society to say "Well hold on a second, this refusal that keeps being returned to the same offer of testing over and over again by psychic after psychic is not good enough anymore. When Hundreds of thousands of pounds are handed over in compensation for anyting claimed to the contrary, its about time we make these claimants prove beyond a reasonable doubt to us that they are doing what they keep suing people for that say they cant?"

I mean if I was running a GP surgery and had never trained and had no idea or licence to do so, what would you say if I brought a case against you for claiming I was using a medical book as a method to commit fraud so I appear as a genuine GP? Do you think that once the question of competency has been raised in court that the big issue to argue legally is if I'm using a medical book as a guide to disgnose people? Or would the Courts and general public decide that the means by which I commit fraud is secondary in nature to weather I am committing no matter which means I do so by?
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Re: Psychic Sal awarded £125.000 in damages.

Post by CrackProof2013 » Fri Sep 06, 2013 3:32 am

asthmatic camel wrote:See above. The Daily Wail Failed because they made an unsubstantiated claim.

Not too difficult.
Yes I am not saying any different. Sally has made a claim that is unsubstantiated to the public and done so as a statement of fact. Who's going to hold her to this same burden of proof?

I'm not trying to make a legal case for the Mail to be excused, I am trying to make a moral and rational one.

When are we going to decide that they no longer can hide behind the refusal to submit to examination like every other professional who is allowed to claim they are a plumber, or police officer and so on?
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Re: Psychic Sal awarded £125.000 in damages.

Post by Doctor X » Fri Sep 06, 2013 3:35 am

Consider this:

South Park: Biggest Douche in the Universe

the episode effectively exposes Jonathan Edward for what he did. Probably the same thing this Sally Cunt does. They were never sued. They could probably very well establish that that was exactly what he did. They never accused him of other specific cheating such as having plants in the audience or making audience members fill out information cards. Many of those cheats are well-known in "psychic" circles--"Hot Reading" as opposed to "Cold."

The Daily Mail made a specific accusation for which they had no evidence.

Randi temporarily destroyed Peter Pophoff for doing that very exact thing: listening to an ear set. I am sure you have seen the exposure video? If not:

for I am a "River to My People."

Here is the difference: Randi had the evidence.

[youtube]lTn0t_7pGZo[/youtube]

One more time: David Duke is a complete Cunt. If a newspaper/news show/et cetera claims he is a pedophile without evidence, he can sue.

Even one more time: people have tried to accuse Randi of the same thing. He has successfully acted against them.

--J.D.

--J.D.
Mob of the Mean: Free beanie, cattle-prod and Charley Fan Club!
"Doctor X is just treating you the way he treats everyone--as subhuman crap too dumb to breathe in after you breathe out."--Don
DocX: FTW.--sparks
"Doctor X wins again."--Pyrrho
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"It was the criticisms of Doc X, actually, that let me see more clearly how far the hypocrisy had gone."--clarsct
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Shit. That's going to end up in your sig."--Pyrrho
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Re: Psychic Sal awarded £125.000 in damages.

Post by Doctor X » Fri Sep 06, 2013 3:37 am

CrackProof2013 wrote:I mean if I was running a GP surgery and had never trained and had no idea or licence to do so. . . .
Non sequitur and non-congruent analogies do not really help you. Not the same situation at all.

If YOU wish to argue that "we" as people and their governments should act to stop such fraud, that is one thing.

You cannot win in this case. You cannot "right a wrong" with a wrong.

--J.D.
Mob of the Mean: Free beanie, cattle-prod and Charley Fan Club!
"Doctor X is just treating you the way he treats everyone--as subhuman crap too dumb to breathe in after you breathe out."--Don
DocX: FTW.--sparks
"Doctor X wins again."--Pyrrho
"Never sorry to make a racist Fucktard cry."--His Humble MagNIfIcence
"It was the criticisms of Doc X, actually, that let me see more clearly how far the hypocrisy had gone."--clarsct
"I'd leave it up to Doctor X who has been a benevolent tyrant so far."--Grammatron
"Indeed you are a river to your people.
Shit. That's going to end up in your sig."--Pyrrho
"Try a twelve step program and accept Doctor X as your High Power."--asthmatic camel
"just like Doc X said." --gnome

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Re: Psychic Sal awarded £125.000 in damages.

Post by CrackProof2013 » Fri Sep 06, 2013 3:43 am

I know Randi sent Peter Rip-off into bankruptcy, and how he has ever been allowed to not only minister again but to allow him to return to TV Evangelism is beyond me. I mean that is like releasing a rapist on parole to work as a janitor in an all girls college campus. Your put the fraudster right back in a position to again commit mass fraud. And offcom's response? He's on a platform owed and operated by Sky TV so is not subject to their monitoring or supervision.
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Re: Psychic Sal awarded £125.000 in damages.

Post by asthmatic camel » Fri Sep 06, 2013 3:50 am

CrackProof2013 wrote:
asthmatic camel wrote:See above. The Daily Wail Failed because they made an unsubstantiated claim.

Not too difficult.
Yes I am not saying any different. Sally has made a claim that is unsubstantiated to the public and done so as a statement of fact. Who's going to hold her to this same burden of proof?

I'm not trying to make a legal case for the Mail to be excused, I am trying to make a moral and rational one.

When are we going to decide that they no longer can hide behind the refusal to submit to examination like every other professional who is allowed to claim they are a plumber, or police officer and so on?
I don't disagree; I'd happily see "Psychic Sally" burned at the stake as a witch.

What?
Shit happens. The older you get, the more often shit happens. So you have to try not to give a shit even when you do. Because, if you give too many shits, you've created your own shit creek and there's no way out other than swimming through the shit. Oh, and fuck.