Chess

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Witness
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Re: Chess

Post by Witness » Thu Dec 13, 2018 1:09 am

xouper wrote:
Wed Dec 12, 2018 7:06 pm
On a related note, I have a hypothesis about why AI does not (currently) seem to do well in classifying music genres. It depends on examples of human classifications to learn from. My conjecture is that the AI classifications are probably very good, but that the human classifications are faulty, and that might explain why AI doesn't seem to do well. For example, the AI is given a largish database of music which is pre-labeled by genre according to humans. The AI then tries to figure out the rules of classification from that database. My hypothesis is that humans are not very good at that, and thus the AI is hamstrung before it even gets started.
Interesting.

Do you have a source for AI being bad at classifying music?

Re. your hypothesis, last sentence especially, it doesn't square with the idea I had (from old reads) that neural networks were very good at fishing signal out of noise.
But then AI and NN aren't the same thing.

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xouper
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Re: Chess

Post by xouper » Thu Dec 13, 2018 2:11 am

Witness wrote:
Thu Dec 13, 2018 1:09 am
xouper wrote:
Wed Dec 12, 2018 7:06 pm
On a related note, I have a hypothesis about why AI does not (currently) seem to do well in classifying music genres. It depends on examples of human classifications to learn from. My conjecture is that the AI classifications are probably very good, but that the human classifications are faulty, and that might explain why AI doesn't seem to do well. For example, the AI is given a largish database of music which is pre-labeled by genre according to humans. The AI then tries to figure out the rules of classification from that database. My hypothesis is that humans are not very good at that, and thus the AI is hamstrung before it even gets started.
Interesting.

Do you have a source for AI being bad at classifying music?
One example, from an annual competition:
https://www.music-ir.org/nema_out/mirex ... mmary.html

An accuracy of 76 percent is not "bad", but I do not consider it "doing well" either.

Witness wrote:
Thu Dec 13, 2018 1:09 am
Re. your hypothesis, last sentence especially, it doesn't square with the idea I had (from old reads) that neural networks were very good at fishing signal out of noise. But then AI and NN aren't the same thing.
They are generally good at fishing signal out of noise, but only if given good data to fish from.

GIGO is still a thing. How accurate is the human data fed into the AI? I have not seen any scores on that.

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Pyrrho
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Re: Chess

Post by Pyrrho » Sat Dec 22, 2018 3:12 pm

I haven't played chess since the time my 8-year old son beat me in a legitimate game which I wasn't trying to lose.
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Anaxagoras
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Re: Chess

Post by Anaxagoras » Tue Jan 08, 2019 11:07 am

A fool thinks himself to be wise, but a wise man knows himself to be a fool.
William Shakespeare

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Doctor X
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Re: Chess

Post by Doctor X » Tue Jan 08, 2019 11:10 am

Yeah, but I rolled a "00!"

Eat it, Nerd!

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Rob Lister
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Re: Chess

Post by Rob Lister » Tue Jan 08, 2019 12:31 pm

Anaxagoras wrote:
Tue Jan 08, 2019 11:07 am
I watched that game the other day. Awesome.

Currently watching the jose raul capablanca series (1901) on agadmator's channel. Capablanca had no formal training and knew no theory on opening or end games. He kicked ass.

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Witness
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Re: Chess

Post by Witness » Sat Jan 26, 2019 12:40 am

Not chess, but AI & games:
Google’s DeepMind AI beats pro StarCraft II players

Google’s artificial intelligence lab DeepMind announced Thursday that it has successfully beaten two professional StarCraft II players with AI.

In preparation for the matches, DeepMind’s specially trained AI “AlphaStar” was fed 200 years’ worth of StarCraft II playing experience.

Facing off against Team Liquid’s Grzegorz “MaNa” Komincz and Dario “TLO” Wünsch, AlphaStar was able to beat both players over the course of five matches each.

Wünsch even described the AI as playing “completely different” than any human he has encountered.

While AI has been successful in popular games such as Quake III arena and Dota 2, AlphaStar’s victory is significant given the complexity of StarCraft II, arguably one of the most challenging real-time strategy games ever made.

As noted by Kotaku, AlphaStar was able to win not by making decisions faster but by making better and more thought-out decisions in general. In fact, the number of clicks and key presses made per minute by the AI was “significantly lower than the professional players.”
https://www.dailydot.com/debug/google-d ... rcraft-ii/

For lots of technical details: https://deepmind.com/blog/alphastar-mas ... rcraft-ii/

What about military applications? :|

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gnome
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Re: Chess

Post by gnome » Sun Jan 27, 2019 4:26 pm

I read about that--they did an impressive amount of tweaking to isolate advantages in control agility and awareness, from decision making. One thing that's interesting to consider at this level is what counts as an even playing field. The computer knowing information about the battlefield that a human wouldn't... obviously does not fall under that, and it comes up even in turn-based. What about being able to give orders in ways that would be physically impossible for a mouse-and-keyboard setup? There's the average "clicks per minute" but is that measured over the entire round? A computer that operated more efficiently could have lower clicks per minute during planning and higher during a skirmish.

What if there were a physically disabled player that had a fancy interface that translated their brain signals directly into computer input instead of using the mouse and keyboard?
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Rob Lister
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Re: Chess

Post by Rob Lister » Mon Jan 28, 2019 1:38 pm

Hnefatafl
A Viking chess-like game. The name means Kings Table.

Image

The pronunciation is all over the place.
http://www.pronouncekiwi.com/Hnefatafl

How to play?


I got there from here.


I'll bet alpha zero could conquer this in an hour.

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Anaxagoras
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Re: Chess

Post by Anaxagoras » Fri Feb 08, 2019 11:31 am

How about some analysis from a female perspective?

It's another AlphaZero vs. Stockfish game, but I don't think I've seen this particular variation covered yet.

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Doctor X
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Re: Chess

Post by Doctor X » Fri Feb 08, 2019 7:33 pm

I'd like to play her position . . . heh . . . heh . . . no . . . wait . . . that came out wrong.

--J.D.
Mob of the Mean: Free beanie, cattle-prod and Charley Fan Club!
"Doctor X is just treating you the way he treats everyone--as subhuman crap too dumb to breathe in after you breathe out."--Don
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Shit. That's going to end up in your sig."--Pyrrho
"Try a twelve step program and accept Doctor X as your High Power."--asthmatic camel
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robinson
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Re: Chess

Post by robinson » Tue Mar 19, 2019 4:02 pm

Years ago, when the high end programs became available online (in a browser no less), I used to pit them against each other, and spent endless days watching the most high level robot chess matches. As the game got farther in, and the programs more advanced, it might take hours for the next move. But goddamn, the level of hyper real complicated shit these computers would do against each other.

It was real actual future sci-fi on my laptop.
You never know what's going to happen

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robinson
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Re: Chess

Post by robinson » Tue Mar 19, 2019 4:03 pm

As far as I know, there has never been a Youtube channel showing that shit. (which means nothing)

Somewhere somebody probably has condensed a 36 hour match down to a 5 minute video.
You never know what's going to happen

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shemp
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Re: Chess

Post by shemp » Wed Mar 20, 2019 1:55 am

robinson wrote:
Tue Mar 19, 2019 4:02 pm
Years ago, when the high end programs became available online (in a browser no less), I used to pit them against each other, and spent endless days watching the most high level robot chess matches. As the game got farther in, and the programs more advanced, it might take hours for the next move. But goddamn, the level of hyper real complicated shit these computers would do against each other.

It was real actual future sci-fi on my laptop.
Sometimes when I'm bored I'll go to a couple of chess websites and play the house programs against each other. Once in awhile they'll come up with a good game, but mostly it's uneventful draws.
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Anaxagoras
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Re: Chess

Post by Anaxagoras » Wed Mar 20, 2019 2:24 am

shemp wrote:
Wed Mar 20, 2019 1:55 am
robinson wrote:
Tue Mar 19, 2019 4:02 pm
Years ago, when the high end programs became available online (in a browser no less), I used to pit them against each other, and spent endless days watching the most high level robot chess matches. As the game got farther in, and the programs more advanced, it might take hours for the next move. But goddamn, the level of hyper real complicated shit these computers would do against each other.

It was real actual future sci-fi on my laptop.
Sometimes when I'm bored I'll go to a couple of chess websites and play the house programs against each other. Once in awhile they'll come up with a good game, but mostly it's uneventful draws.
The better chess players get, and the better matched, the more common draws become. The last human championship was all draws until they went to the tiebreaker round with a short clock.
A fool thinks himself to be wise, but a wise man knows himself to be a fool.
William Shakespeare

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Anaxagoras
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Re: Chess

Post by Anaxagoras » Wed Mar 20, 2019 3:40 am

A fool thinks himself to be wise, but a wise man knows himself to be a fool.
William Shakespeare

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robinson
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Re: Chess

Post by robinson » Wed Mar 20, 2019 2:36 pm

shemp wrote:
Wed Mar 20, 2019 1:55 am
Sometimes when I'm bored I'll go to a couple of chess websites and play the house programs against each other. Once in awhile they'll come up with a good game, but mostly it's uneventful draws.
If they are evenly matched it's almost always a boring draw
You never know what's going to happen

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Rob Lister
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Re: Chess

Post by Rob Lister » Wed Mar 20, 2019 4:37 pm

Sometimes it is a draw because the higher ranked player is bored. Magnus will often offer a draw when he's a bit behind. The lesser-ranked player will agree because a draw against him is a win for them. It's fucking disappointing.

OTOH, the [early] Leela Zero games against Stockfish were fucking awesome.