Cool Hand
Posts: 9999
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Location: Earning my avatar in the rain

So a little while ago I was playing a 6-handed tournament of No limit Hold 'em poker on PokerStars. Nothing unusual about that.

It's play money, as it's still illegal to play (and PS won't let you) in the US for real money online. Still, it's a $25k buy-in, which means you have to have played a lot to have accumulated that much play money (they give you$1,000 to start with). Generally, the players at the $25k tables have a good bit of experience and discipline, and they tend to be good sports and mature about it. This game goes on a long time with just three of us left. Finally, the bubble bursts and the third guy is gone. It's now head-to-head, me and this other guy who has bluffed his way there mostly, by going all-in over the top of everyone's bets way more than is justified. Sometimes that can be a viable tactic, as once the blinds escalate (the blinds are the rotating ante that two players must put up each hand, so as to encourage betting) every five minutes. After thirty or forty minutes, they can pretty high, and calling a hand and playing puts you at risk of being knocked out of the tournament each hand, unless you are really careful and tight. That's how I've been playing. By this point, the blinds are$300 and $600 each hand. This means calling the hand when you are the small blind (SB) of$300 costs you another $300 to play. It's risky business. You can't wait until you get dealt a pair of aces though (AA), as the blinds will eat up your stack of chips before you get a hand that good. This means once the blinds are that high, there is a lot of bluffing and you loosen up a lot, meaning you lower the standards for a hand that is good enough to call. OK, so I'm the small blind, and every time I've called a bet, the other guy, whose stack of chips is bigger than mine by now, meaning he can knock me out, but even if I win an all-in hand I cannot knock him out, has been going over the top and going all-in. He is challenging me to the death every fucking hand. Obviously, most of the time he's bluffing. Eventually, I get a "good enough" hand and call his all-in pre-flop, meaning before the first three community cards are flipped over. My cards are Q4 hearts, a suited queen, meaning I'm hoping for a flush or a pair of queens. He turns over K3 off suit. Probably the best he can do is a pair of kings or hope for nothing, and he wins with the high card. It's pretty much a 50-50 draw before the flop, as neither of us has a big advantage over the other. The flop comes and it's QQ7. This is great for me, as I've now got 3 queens to his pair of Qs and a K. The turn comes and it's a 4. Jackpot. I've now got a full house and he's drawing dead, which means no matter what the next card is, he can't win. The next card is the other queen, so I finish the hand with four queens (QQQQ). That's a hand you don't see very often. I take the pot and now my stack dwarfs his. There is a chat box, and it is common courtesy and good sportsmanship for the other guy to say "nice hand," or the shorthand version, "nh" or "vnh" very nice hand. I always do. It's also OK to say nothing. Not this guy. His response? "Really?" As if my four queens to his K3 is a bad beat (meaning his hand was expected to win according to the odds, but a miracle happened and somehow I beat him by dumb luck). Not only is he delusional thinking that he had me beat with his sure thing of K and a low kicker off suit, but he's a fucking terrible sport about it. I said to him, "happens." I wait for his response. Nothing. Finally, I said, "No need to be a dick about it." Immediately, he says, "Fuck off." I respond with "nice." Now I realize I'm playing with a 14-yr-old who has been raised in a barn. He gets mad and goes all-in the next hand and I fold. My stack is now much bigger than his, and he is risking me killing him with every hand he calls. The next hand he goes all in again, and I call. I mean my stack is 4 times bigger than his, and it really doesn't matter what I have. I'm stupid not to call. I win the hand and he goes back to his mom crying about it. I hate playing with immature assholes. At least be a good sport about it. CH ....life purpose is pay taxes -- pillory 12/05/13 And you run and you run to catch up with the sun but it's sinking Racing around to come up behind you again The sun is the same in a relative way, but you're older Shorter of breath and one day closer to death. "Time" -- Pink Floyd Bearguin Posts: 8093 Joined: Sun Jun 06, 2004 12:26 am Title: Thankless Bastard! Location: Get off my fucking lawn ### Re: Poker and bad sportsmanship, not bad beats What the hell? I should have won with my King Nyarlathotep Posts: 49386 Joined: Fri Jun 04, 2004 2:50 pm ### Re: Poker and bad sportsmanship, not bad beats Poor sportsmanship sucks regardless of the game. It's one of the reasons why I generally only play games against people I know. Cloverlief Posts: 5025 Joined: Tue Jan 08, 2008 10:59 pm Location: Here, there or somewhere ### Re: Poker and bad sportsmanship, not bad beats What is it with lawyers and poker? Chani Rob Lister Posts: 22699 Joined: Sun Jul 18, 2004 7:15 pm Title: Incipient toppler Location: Swimming in Lake Ed ### Re: Poker and bad sportsmanship, not bad beats Cool Hand wrote:I hate playing with immature assholes. At least be a good sport about it. Back when I was playing on ft, the real assholes were the ones they would intentional ask time repeatedly when they were in no-win positions using up their allotment, slowing the two-player game to a crawl. And right at the end, disconnect and thus force an even slower close. I learned not to give a shit and just start another window. I played a few$100k (pm) tables and those were all assholes of some variety; a Tony G in every seat.

The 50k tables were the most polite.

Rob Lister
Posts: 22699
Joined: Sun Jul 18, 2004 7:15 pm
Title: Incipient toppler
Location: Swimming in Lake Ed

Cloverlief wrote:What is it with lawyers and poker?

[video][/video]

Watch the way these two players (potentially the best strategists and biggest money players in the business) play their hands. Being in Gus's position is what every poker player dreams of. Being in Daniel's position is the stuff nightmares are made of.

What lawyer couldn't love that.

Cool Hand
Posts: 9999
Joined: Sun Jun 06, 2004 4:09 pm
Location: Earning my avatar in the rain

Bearguin wrote:What the hell?

I should have won with my King
Thanks for getting it. My poker player friend who just happened to call me right after that didn't. I told him what happened, and he kept interrupting and asking irrelevant questions. When I finally finished telling him the story, he thought the point was that I got 4 queens. He said, "congratulations."

D'oh!

I didn't care that I got 4 queens. I was pissed off that the dick thought I was stupid for calling his preflop all-in with Q4 suited when he held a K and a low kicker and that he had the gall to suggest that it was a bad beat. Preflop we were about neck and neck. After the flop, he was a very long shot, and it just kept getting worse and worse for him.

CH
....life purpose is pay taxes -- pillory 12/05/13

And you run and you run to catch up with the sun but it's sinking
Racing around to come up behind you again
The sun is the same in a relative way, but you're older
Shorter of breath and one day closer to death.

"Time" -- Pink Floyd

Cool Hand
Posts: 9999
Joined: Sun Jun 06, 2004 4:09 pm
Location: Earning my avatar in the rain

Rob Lister wrote:
Cloverlief wrote:What is it with lawyers and poker?

[video][/video]

Watch the way these two players (potentially the best strategists and biggest money players in the business) play their hands. Being in Gus's position is what every poker player dreams of. Being in Daniel's position is the stuff nightmares are made of.

What lawyer couldn't love that.
That's an awesome hand to watch. Sickening for Daniel, but too fucking cool for Gus. He played it beautifully.

CH
....life purpose is pay taxes -- pillory 12/05/13

And you run and you run to catch up with the sun but it's sinking
Racing around to come up behind you again
The sun is the same in a relative way, but you're older
Shorter of breath and one day closer to death.

"Time" -- Pink Floyd

Cool Hand
Posts: 9999
Joined: Sun Jun 06, 2004 4:09 pm
Location: Earning my avatar in the rain

Cloverlief wrote:What is it with lawyers and poker?
Ha. It appeals to the strategist in us, at least those of us who litigate. I think you might know one.

Trying cases and negotiating deals is all about gamesmanship (at least to those who really understand what is going on when you negotiate settlements), which is of course about strategy and game theory. Chess and poker are the two purest strategy games out there. It is no coincidence that lots of lawyers and judges play one or both.

Too many casual observers and even veteran poker players think that poker is about just odds and the cards. It's not. To seasoned players who understand what is really going on, poker is fundamentally about reading the other players and getting inside their heads, determining not only what they are likely to be holding, but also what they likely think you are holding. It's a real mind fuck.

The cards themselves are mostly incidental, yet that doesn't stop lots of novices from claiming you're a donkey for calling their A5 when the flop is JJ2 and you're holding KK. If I've determined the guy's likely range from observing him, chances are calling with KK is a damn good call and setting him up to lose unless he catches an A on the turn or the river.

CH
....life purpose is pay taxes -- pillory 12/05/13

And you run and you run to catch up with the sun but it's sinking
Racing around to come up behind you again
The sun is the same in a relative way, but you're older
Shorter of breath and one day closer to death.

"Time" -- Pink Floyd

Cloverlief
Posts: 5025
Joined: Tue Jan 08, 2008 10:59 pm
Location: Here, there or somewhere

Cool Hand wrote:
Cloverlief wrote:What is it with lawyers and poker?
Ha. It appeals to the strategist in us, at least those of us who litigate. I think you might know one.

Trying cases and negotiating deals is all about gamesmanship (at least to those who really understand what is going on when you negotiate settlements), which is of course about strategy and game theory. Chess and poker are the two purest strategy games out there. It is no coincidence that lots of lawyers and judges play one or both.

Too many casual observers and even veteran poker players think that poker is about just odds and the cards. It's not. To seasoned players who understand what is really going on, poker is fundamentally about reading the other players and getting inside their heads, determining not only what they are likely to be holding, but also what they likely think you are holding. It's a real mind fuck.

The cards themselves are mostly incidental, yet that doesn't stop lots of novices from claiming you're a donkey for calling their A5 when the flop is JJ2 and you're holding KK. If I've determined the guy's likely range from observing him, chances are calling with KK is a damn good call and setting him up to lose unless he catches an A on the turn or the river.

CH
Must be. The lawyer I know definitely enjoys poker and chess.

I do know that there are a lot of strategy in poker. I also know there is also a lot of blind luck as well. Like the guy who pull the flush on the river. I think if you calculate your odds and play well, you are likely to win more often than lose. I have had this explained a time or two, and that Elbow Jobertski guy has written quite a bit about it.
Chani

clarsct
Posts: 5872
Joined: Sun Sep 11, 2005 9:30 am

I would counter that checkers is more strategy based than chess...

Chess is also about observation. When you have several different options for moving based on the piece, it is oftentimes a mistake in observation that costs a game. Checkers, in my opinion, is more pure in that the pieces share moves, and so makes the game more about the strategy. The opening moves mean more in the late game, and you're more engaged throughout. Just an opinion, I am good at either, and not too bad with poker, though I prefer blackjack.

I have played in chess tourneys, and came home with a trophy one time, even...and I have seen some people get fairly rude and agitated. Usually means they're going to lose the next match, maybe two...lack of focus. (Unless single elim, in which case they've raised their blood pressure over a game.)

I would proffer that bad sportsmanship hurts the person displaying such more than anyone else......can't help fools. It is healthy to examine why you lost, you learn that way. But to fixate on such so badly that you set yourself up for failure is merely stupid.

I tend to be too aggressive at poker. I know it's bad habits....but damn they're hard to break.
When Religion becomes State, and breaking the Law becomes a Sin, then Dissenters will become Heretics.

"Reading other people's opinions is a good way to avoid thinking." --My Wife

whitefork
Posts: 3957
Joined: Mon Jun 07, 2004 1:23 pm
Title: Nearly Normal
Location: I live in Trafalgar Square with four lions to guard me.

One of the main differences between checkers and chess, at least English Draughts as opposed to pool checkers, is that the pieces can more only forward until reaching the king row. Once you've created a structural weakness, like allowing your opponent to establish a bind, you may be effectively playing a piece short. With chess, you may be able to recover from a bad opening; with checkers it's usually impossible. There's a lot in common with weak and strong pawn formations in chess.
But like Teichmann said, chess is 90 (or 99)% tactics. Checkers too. The amateur player will generally fall into a 2 for 1 shot within the first 10 moves and then it's usually a matter of swapping down.
If it's good enough for Nelson, it's quite good enough for me.

Cool Hand
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Joined: Sun Jun 06, 2004 4:09 pm
Location: Earning my avatar in the rain

clarsct wrote:I would counter that checkers is more strategy based than chess...
In game theory, a "pure" strategy game is one that does not incorporate an element of chance. Thus, both checkers and chess are pure strategy games, whereas poker is not. Nevertheless, it is a mistake to think that poker is strictly a game of chance, as Congress presently does. Poker, at least as played by skilled experienced players, is very much a game of skill that relies on an element of chance in the deal and play of the cards. Skilled players will consistently beat unskilled players over time, however, as the odds (the element of chance in the game) even out and are effectively rendered moot over the long term.

Poker is a "mixed" strategy game, meaning it incorporates elements of skill and chance.

CH
....life purpose is pay taxes -- pillory 12/05/13

And you run and you run to catch up with the sun but it's sinking
Racing around to come up behind you again
The sun is the same in a relative way, but you're older
Shorter of breath and one day closer to death.

"Time" -- Pink Floyd

DrMatt
BANNED
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Location: Location: Location!

Here's some more not bad beats

[video][/video]
Grayman wrote:If masturbation led to homosexuality you'd think by now I'd at least have better fashion sense.

Cloverlief
Posts: 5025
Joined: Tue Jan 08, 2008 10:59 pm
Location: Here, there or somewhere

Rob Lister wrote:
Cloverlief wrote:What is it with lawyers and poker?

[video][/video]

Watch the way these two players (potentially the best strategists and biggest money players in the business) play their hands. Being in Gus's position is what every poker player dreams of. Being in Daniel's position is the stuff nightmares are made of.

What lawyer couldn't love that.
Thanks to RCC's love of poker I have seen every episode of High Stakes Poker. Poor Daniel Negranau could not catch a break, but he handled it really well.
Chani

Cloverlief
Posts: 5025
Joined: Tue Jan 08, 2008 10:59 pm
Location: Here, there or somewhere

Rob Lister wrote:
Cloverlief wrote:What is it with lawyers and poker?

[video][/video]

Watch the way these two players (potentially the best strategists and biggest money players in the business) play their hands. Being in Gus's position is what every poker player dreams of. Being in Daniel's position is the stuff nightmares are made of.

What lawyer couldn't love that.
Thanks to RCC's love of poker I have seen every episode of High Stakes Poker. Poor Daniel Negranau could not catch a break, but he handled it really well.
Chani

whitefork
Posts: 3957
Joined: Mon Jun 07, 2004 1:23 pm
Title: Nearly Normal
Location: I live in Trafalgar Square with four lions to guard me.

If it's good enough for Nelson, it's quite good enough for me.

RCC
Posts: 7015
Joined: Mon Jun 07, 2004 5:28 pm
Location: Here for now.

I've never, ever typed "NH" into the chat box, in part because in the old days it was an insult and also because I usually don't have the keyboard within reach. All in all the tirade is about a 2 out of 10.

I mean, if some fishcake folds over and over and over and then decides to call... Not play back by going all in but call... With Q4s, and I just happen to still be marginally ahead but get sucked out on I'm going to feel annoyed. I wouldn't say anything, but most assholes in these games aren't so in control.
I mean, first all in with it is standard in those high blind situations, but then again it really can differ based on the numbers.

Best internet poker abuse story ever: some guy sucks out, blah blah blah, and his victim figures out the guy uses his PS handle on e-bay. So the victim berates the guy via the marketplace feedback feature over the next few months.

Anaxagoras
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A fool thinks himself to be wise, but a wise man knows himself to be a fool.
William Shakespeare

Rob Lister
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