Quick poker tournaments?

Stump your fellow simians.
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RCC
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Post by RCC »

slimshady2357 wrote:Well I've been there fooling around with the Autobots :)

They've been hitting straights and sets on the river like it's fixed or something! :x

:D

I could probably be there tonight some time, around 6 or 7 EST.

Adam
I've been getting on there between 7 and 10 EST, on and off. The freeroll is at 10PM EST and I have been making a vague (although not as vague as C_B apparently) effort to play in that. It is a nice little quick free NLHE tournament. Most online free tournaments have little or no prize and still have thousands of people. This one pays $30 and has yet to have 20 people. The traffic seems to pick up on there about that time as people try to qualify for the freerolls in the sit-n-go tournaments.

The FunBots are brutal. Back when the site was in beta the ARG events would hold "warmups" there, and there would be like 18 humans and about 20 funbots in a NLHE tournament. The funbots would for the most part play "all in or fold" poker, and aggressively at that. So usually the field was down to the final table within 20 minutes. Total bloodbath.

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slimshady2357
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Post by slimshady2357 »

Well, I'll drop by about 6EST and see who is there. I'll check in here too, just to see if C-B or Beleth are going to be there. I like the idea of 3 of us getting a table so that one of us (ok, you) is garunteed to get into the freeroll :D

Adam
If there is a sin against life, its consists perhaps not so much in despairing of life as in hoping for another life in eluding the implacable grandeur of this life. -- Camus

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slimshady2357
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Post by slimshady2357 »

Whoo hoo! I won a game and now have 50 freeroll points! Yeehaw! :D

Adam
If there is a sin against life, its consists perhaps not so much in despairing of life as in hoping for another life in eluding the implacable grandeur of this life. -- Camus

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RCC
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Post by RCC »

I'm there now as well... in case anyone wants to feel the pain...
:twisted:

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Beleth
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Post by Beleth »

I probably won't be on until late tonight, if at all. "Late" being after 9 Pacific (midnight Eastern, 4 AM GMT). And yes I did those time conversions in my head.
"I can't tell if this is a love-fest or a pissing contest."
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slimshady2357
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Post by slimshady2357 »

RCC wrote:I'm there now as well... in case anyone wants to feel the pain...
:twisted:
I felt the pain, damn you :x

And then I felt it again, in the next game though that wasn't you ;)

Adam
If there is a sin against life, its consists perhaps not so much in despairing of life as in hoping for another life in eluding the implacable grandeur of this life. -- Camus

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slimshady2357
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Post by slimshady2357 »

Whoo hoo, I now have 100pts. See you at 3AM my time RCC, if you're sticking around for the freeroll tourney :)

Adam
If there is a sin against life, its consists perhaps not so much in despairing of life as in hoping for another life in eluding the implacable grandeur of this life. -- Camus

CHARLEY_BIGTIME

Post by CHARLEY_BIGTIME »

RCC wrote:
The FunBots are brutal.
Disagree, the bots are dead easy to work out on qogs. They don't bluff and they don't accept bluffs. They play pure percentages - screw your loaf and you'll win cheap crap.

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Beleth
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Post by Beleth »

All I've learned from the bots:
- If they check, raise.
- If they raise, fold.
- If they fold, Hell has frozen over.
"I can't tell if this is a love-fest or a pissing contest."
--MLynn

"Let's see some hugs... c'mon!"
--Quester_X

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Bearguin
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Post by Bearguin »

Beleth wrote:All I've learned from the bots:
- If they check, raise.
- If they raise, fold.
- If they fold, Hell has frozen over.
I've seen them check when holding high pair.

Rarely seen them raise except with a killer hand.

Some of them always fold.

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RCC
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Post by RCC »

WARNING: POKER ANALYSIS AHEAD


You played well. Very aggressive. Took me a while to adjust to it.

One of the players made an ass of himself in a later game. Good example of a lack of understanding of the basics.

After this hand the busted player called me an asshole. I think he felt wronged because my QT wound up beating his AQ, as the AQ was a huge favorite at that point.

Here is why he is an idiot, and why a lack of understanding can make a routine play seem like some sort of horrible beat.
Hand 4577155:

Table Cheddar (50pt Freeroll Qualifier NL Holdem; T)
Hand 4577155
Seat 1: peaches (Omaha) - T1160.00
Seat 2: Suddenly (Charleston) - T1300.00
Seat 3: FeltShark (the big O) - T540.00
The game is Holdem
Note we are 3 handed, and that seat 3 only has 540 in chips.
Suddenly has the button
FeltShark blinds T50.00
peaches blinds T100.00
Blinds are pretty big in realtion to the stacks, no?
Suddenly has the button
Dealing hand 4577155 of Holdem to seats 1, 2, and 3
Seats 3, 1, and 2 are each dealt a card
Your hole card is Th
Seats 3, 1, and 2 are each dealt a card
Your hole card is Qs
I've QT, a decent hand preflop 3 handed, but with the blinds this size I'd just as rather take it down. Folding is a mistake, I'd rather not give a free flop, so...
Suddenly raises T200.00
I raise T200, my standard NL raise making the bet triple the big blind.
FeltShark raises T200.00
I get raised back 200, he is more or less all in so my choices are to fold or put 240 in the pot. At this point in the pot is the T50 small blind, my T300 bet, and this guy's T540. Thats T890. I have to call 240. So, I'm getting 890 - 240 or about 3.7 to 1 odds on my money.

This player is short stacked and the blinds are high. He has also played somewhat aggressive. He likely has a better than average hand, but could have a wide number of hands. Thing is, I am getting 3.5 to 1, which means that as long as my hand wins at least 22% of the time I have odds to call here. How many hands does a QT offsuit not beat at least 22% of the time?

Only AA, KK, and QQ.

That's it. These are the only hands I would in the long run lose to by calling. AQ is beat by QT about 27% of the time.

Sure, every now and then he's going to have these big pairs. Not very often, usually I'm going to get better than my needed 3.5 - 1 odds, like when he has a small pair and he is little better than even money. Plus, if he makes the move with JT, Q9, or T9, I'm a big favorite.

The moral is, is when someone moves all in on you, and you have 3-1 or better odds to call, you should pretty much always call. If I'm in the big blind, and someone moves all in with a short stack and I have better than 3-1 I call without even looking at my hand.

So....
peaches folds
Suddenly raises T200.00
FeltShark calls T40.00
I raise him his last 40 and he calls.
FeltShark is all in
Pot 1 is T1180.00
Rake is T0.00
T160.00 returned to Suddenly
Betting action is complete
Suddenly shows: [Th Qs]
FeltShark shows: [Qd Ac]
Community card Tc
Community card 6d
Community card 5h
Rake is T0.00
Community card 3d
Rake is T0.00
Community card Kc
Rake is T0.00
Suddenly shows: [Th Qs] -- One Pair, tens, K-Q-6 kickers
FeltShark shows: [Qd Ac] -- No Pair, A-K-Q-T-6 high
FeltShark mucks
Suddenly wins T1180.00 from pot 1
FeltShark busts in place #3 and receives payout of 0
I flop a ten and send him to the rail. As outlined above, I had pot odds that justified calling him even if I knew what he had.

Yet he calls me an asshole, and I bet he thinks that he was beaten by a stupid play. Yes, he usually wins this hand, but I clearly do better in the long run risking the 240 to bust him rather than folding and giving him the large pot.

I'm not angry at the insult, as this sort of stupidity is what bought my wife's piano and allows me to profit from a hobby. I just wanted to illustrate it here to help others who read this to not be the guy that whines about this sort of thing, and more importantly to not be the person who ever folds to an all in bet when you are getting 3-1 or better preflop.

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RCC
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Post by RCC »

CHARLEY_BIGTIME wrote:
RCC wrote:
The FunBots are brutal.
Disagree, the bots are dead easy to work out on qogs. They don't bluff and they don't accept bluffs. They play pure percentages - screw your loaf and you'll win cheap crap.
Maybe at limit. I've not spent time with them there...

When they played in the NL tournaments they may have been easy to beat in the long run, but their all-in or nothing style made them dangerous to mess with.

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Beleth
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Post by Beleth »

RCC wrote:WARNING: POKER ANALYSIS AHEAD

This player is short stacked and the blinds are high. He has also played somewhat aggressive. He likely has a better than average hand, but could have a wide number of hands. Thing is, I am getting 3.5 to 1, which means that as long as my hand wins at least 22% of the time I have odds to call here. How many hands does a QT offsuit not beat at least 22% of the time?

Only AA, KK, and QQ.

That's it. These are the only hands I would in the long run lose to by calling. AQ is beat by QT about 27% of the time.
See, it's this odds-calculation thing that I don't get. How do you know this stuff so fast? Is it just from playing so much? Or is there an easy way to figure out what your odds are?
"I can't tell if this is a love-fest or a pissing contest."
--MLynn

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RCC
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Post by RCC »

Beleth wrote: See, it's this odds-calculation thing that I don't get. How do you know this stuff so fast? Is it just from playing so much? Or is there an easy way to figure out what your odds are?
I read some books to get a proper theoretical basis, the idea of what expected value is, what pot odds are, and so on. The Theory of Poker by David Sklansky is by far the best work as to basic ideas behind poker.

Pot odds are the amount that the pot contains vs. the amount you need to call. Just plain math there.

As far as what hand beats what in what situation, that is just from study, and looking things up on a poker calculator like this one:


http://www.cardplayer.com/poker_odds/

So I've been playing seriously since the early 90's, (although I never played holdem until about 1997 when I went to law school... the games I played before then then were mainly 7 card stud hi-lo and no limit 2-7 lowball, but that was a weird time in a strange place) analyze my own hands after the fact, have read virtually every poker book of note, and I have spent time on various forums (Rec Gambling Poker on usenet for the most part, although that is largely a spamfest these days) reading hand analyses and such.

After a while it you develop a "feel" for what is going on, as many asituation comes up over and over again. I've seen pretty much everything at least twice, or close enough to where I can analogize. I don't usually in my mind go through all this math as I am playing. If something weird comes up I may stop and work it out, but generally I have a good idea of what is going on based on experience. It is important now and then for me to "audit" myself, look at some hands after the fact and make sure my instincts as to the numbers are not out of whack. Hard to know for sure, as most decisions are not based on the exact hand the opponent holds, rather on the possible hands and the likelyhood of each. Lots of judgement built in.

That is actually the best way to learn. Don't worry too much as you play, just try to reason things through, take notes on important hands (or get the hand history e-mailed to you, this can be done under the "file" menu on the qogs main page) and analyze them later or show them to others for their opinion. I'd be happy to look at any hands you (or anyone else) want to post here.

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slimshady2357
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Post by slimshady2357 »

Oh well, 8th out of 17, I can live with that for the first time :)

I see you came 5th RCC, you didn't seem to be getting the cards. My pocket kings lost to pocket jacks, what can you do :)

Adam
If there is a sin against life, its consists perhaps not so much in despairing of life as in hoping for another life in eluding the implacable grandeur of this life. -- Camus

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RCC
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Post by RCC »

slimshady2357 wrote:Oh well, 8th out of 17, I can live with that for the first time :)

I see you came 5th RCC, you didn't seem to be getting the cards. My pocket kings lost to pocket jacks, what can you do :)

Adam
Death by blinds. I eventually got all in with J4o....

I got no cards. I completely stole two big pots early on, and then never even had another decent bluff situation, much less a hand. Oh well, the entry price was right...

Nice play on the moving all in on the flop with the AKs BTW. You had a flush draw and likely two overcards. Even when called by the jacks you were pretty much even money there (if the board had no pair you would be about a 55% favorite) since any heart, king or ace won it for you with two cards remaining, so when you factor in that you might get a better hand to fold it was a good aggressive play. A lot of people would have played that passively, and I think that is a whopping mistake as you are usually a favorite and since many don't realize that the play looks to them like a simple bluff. Moving all in in that situation is one of my pet poker plays. Looks much more reckless and daring than it is seeing you win more often than not.

It didn't go your way, but that is the way of poker. Can't win 'em all...

CHARLEY_BIGTIME

Post by CHARLEY_BIGTIME »

MWAAHAHAHAHAAHA!

I won the tournament last night.

Played cautious, was always 2nd or 3rd with chips on the final table, bullied a bit, bluffed a bit, sacrificed a bit. I'd be interested RCC if you could have a look at my hands and see if I did anything that was pants.

Now what the smeg am I going to do with a $30 cheque?

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RCC
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Post by RCC »

Whoops... missed this post for some reason. I can't see the hands unless you saved them somewhere...

I'm headed over there tonight... Will be in for prelim single tables and the main, pausing only for a refill...

CHARLEY_BIGTIME

Post by CHARLEY_BIGTIME »

RCC wrote:Whoops... missed this post for some reason. I can't see the hands unless you saved them somewhere...
I did. Can you PM email to me. I saved the last 50 hands so it might be a bit tedious. But I'm interested to know if I pushed when I should have held or vice versa.

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Beleth
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Post by Beleth »

I just want to post that I saw slimshady win a hand with a queen-high straight flush about a week ago, and that I was mighty impressed.
"I can't tell if this is a love-fest or a pissing contest."
--MLynn

"Let's see some hugs... c'mon!"
--Quester_X