Complete phoney and fake

What's your artifact doing in Boss Kean's ditch?
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ed
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Complete phoney and fake

Post by ed » Tue Oct 29, 2019 11:31 am

Image

I bought one like this in Maine many years ago. It isn't really a fake sine there was never a real knife like this in service in Nazi Germany. Rather it is correctly termed a "fantasy" piece. The one I have has a blade marked Eikhorn which is a legit maker who made blades for the Nazi regime. That is sorta what fooled me when i bought the damn thing. It was "correct enough" plus "NAZI". It is the only Nazi thing I ever bought and since I find collecting that stuff distasteful it is appropriate that I got screwed. It was $60 as I recall. Still have it. A reminder.

Here is a faked piece:
Fake1910.jpg
This is a Mauser m.1910 .25acp pistol. Serial is good, that triangle/circle thing is good. The eagle marks are crap. Why? .25 pistols were not part of the nazi armamentarium so they were never inspected for military use. Ergo the marks are fake. Pistol, unmarked, would have been worth $300. The guy is trying for $800. Pistol is good, marks are fake so the whole thing, as presented, is fake. BTW, the stamps can be bought on ebay.

I recall teaching my kids this as I dragged them thru antique stores and flea markets. I collect prints. Not the "Art prints" that Abdul "collects" of young men in suggistive poses but older stuff. A real print will have a plate mark, viz.
Image
Silk screens and so on are printed but not really prints and do not have such a mark. That may be too fine a point. Anyway, you see examples of old maps regularly. Stuff like this
Image
Often a plate mark is missing. And if virtually any pre 1600 map is priced less than $600 or so smile and walk away. If it is presented as real then it is fake. A reproduction is just that. I don't think I've ever seen a bad print that you could't tell pretty easily but I think that one could do a fake that would pretty easily fool a sophisticated amateur like me. Point is that it would be expensive to do and you don't buy expensive stuff without an iron clad guarantee of authenticity, nor from people that look like Shemp selling out of their car trunk.

I never touch jap stuff since it is the realm of fakers and I know shit about it. Similarly, Nazi stuff has been faked since the first GI bought Hermann Goering's gold plated Luger with real Nazi stamps all over it. Factories in Germany kept turning out the Nazi marked crap they made during the war till long after the war. Pieces that were awaiting assembly at war's end were assembled post war. Are these fakes? Welllllll ... they are not "of the period" so if they are represented as "Nazi" I'd call them fake, others may not. I understand that a lot of stuff is being produced in central europe now. Poland is, evidentially, a big source. If something is marked "Nazi" walk away. A friend who has been dealing in Nazi material for 30-40 years won't touch medals any longer. The fakes are just too good and he can't tell.

Here is a good one, a "Hitler Youth Knife"
Image
And in virtually mint condition!!!!!!

Lets see if you have been paying attention ...

I'll let you have it for $300, what do you say?
:ImOuttaHere:
I can recall seeing barrels (literally barrels) of these things in Kauffman's Army Navy store in NYC when I was a kid. Are there real ones? Yup. Is this one of the real ones? Do you really have to ask? 1) condition is perfect 2)fucking NAZI!!! have you not been paying attention?
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Last edited by ed on Tue Oct 29, 2019 2:31 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Abdul Alhazred
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Re: Complete phoney and fake

Post by Abdul Alhazred » Tue Oct 29, 2019 12:12 pm

You luger pic needs to be rehosted. One must be logged in there to see it.

As for this one:

Image

"Fake" only if touted as real.

Otherwise it is "fan art". :BigGrin3:
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Abdul Alhazred
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Re: Complete phoney and fake

Post by Abdul Alhazred » Tue Oct 29, 2019 12:13 pm

Not the "Art prints" that Abdul "collects" of young men in suggistive poses but older stuff.
I might if I had a rich sugar daddy. :P
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Re: Complete phoney and fake

Post by shemp » Tue Oct 29, 2019 1:45 pm

I'll have you know that I do NOT sell out of a car trunk, I'm a legitimate operator who sells out of the back of a van!
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Re: Complete phoney and fake

Post by ed » Tue Oct 29, 2019 2:29 pm

shemp wrote:
Tue Oct 29, 2019 1:45 pm
I'll have you know that I do NOT sell out of a car trunk, I'm a legitimate operator who sells out of the back of a van!
I forgot about your moble siding business

Image
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Re: Complete phoney and fake

Post by ed » Tue Oct 29, 2019 2:32 pm

Abdul Alhazred wrote:
Tue Oct 29, 2019 12:12 pm
You luger pic needs to be rehosted. One must be logged in there to see it.

As for this one:

Image

"Fake" only if touted as real.

Otherwise it is "fan art". :BigGrin3:
1) fixed

2) as my attorney used to say "wear stripes"
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Re: Complete phoney and fake

Post by Anaxagoras » Wed Oct 30, 2019 6:27 am

I've always known Shemp to be an honest, legitimate purveyor of antiquities.

The Mask of Tutankhamun he sold me the other day was a real bargain! He even threw in an Order of Sukhbaatar medal at no extra charge!
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ed
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Re: Complete phoney and fake

Post by ed » Wed Oct 30, 2019 10:23 am

I was wondering where mine went :x
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Re: Complete phoney and fake

Post by Doctor X » Wed Oct 30, 2019 8:32 pm

He should have given you a discount for the first since it clearly says, "Made in Taiwan."

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Re: Complete phoney and fake

Post by Witness » Thu Oct 31, 2019 2:50 am

Nazi memorabilia due to go on show in Buenos Aires Holocaust Museum found to be fake

A trove of Nazi memorabilia that was going to be displayed at the Holocaust Museum in Buenos Aires has been found to consist largely of fakes.
The haul was discovered in June 2017 in a suburb of the Argentinian capital and included a bust of Adolf Hitler, binoculars and war medals.
Police seized 75 items at the time and experts have since confirmed that just 10 are genuine.

The museum said in a statement that, following an assessment by German investigators, it will not display any of the inauthentic artifacts.
Reuters reports that the articles were due to go on display in December.
https://edition.cnn.com/2019/10/30/amer ... index.html

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ed
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Re: Complete phoney and fake

Post by ed » Thu Oct 31, 2019 11:56 am

Then there is Joe Walters, owner of the House of Swords and Militaria. I have written about him here, how I was first exposed to real faking thru his work.
The silver grip is also a problem and this style of sword has been heavily faked by such dealers as "House of Swords and Militaria" who utilized the ORs (Official Records) to look up dates and battles and was particularly fond of faking MOH awardees. The dealer would mount original period blades on newly cast hilts and scabbards and have a jeweler hand engrave presentations on the scabbards between the bands. Your grip does not seem to fit and does not appear to be silver from the photos. The bottom of the grip seems to be pushed into the guard and this is often indicative of fitting a blade with a too short tang to an overlong grip.
http://www.swordforum.com/vb4/showthrea ... rles-Black

This guy faked everything not just high end presentation swords. And that is particularly insidious. A $10,000 sword will get scrutiny. A $400 one not so much. He faked swords and other stuff. I have a catalog kicking around somewhere and it has concentration camp memorabilia (!). I bought a couple of swords from him at bargain prices ( :D ), one was marked "Made in Spain". Called FBI, made a fool of myself. Etc etc etc

Guy was evidentially murdered some time ago.

The Nazi stuff was over the top. He also had "authentic" Crusader armor and weapons.

I knew but like most victims of a swindle, I wanted to believe and my greed overcame my common sense. I did get my money back though. Wasn't a lot, maybe $600 or so.

Here is an archived article on the guy.
Marlin (Bud) Hasher has a room in his New Jersey home with 45 mannequins in immaculate Nazi uniforms, as well as one dressed as Hitler ("The kids love that one") and another with a crudely penned beard and starkly carved face, wearing the stained garb of an inmate from Dachau. One wall is lined with 100 helmets and caps, from the Luftwaffe, the Panzer corps, the Waffen SS, each bearing a swastika. Another wall is covered with daggers, a third with swords. Why? The question reverberates because Bud Hasher, a mechanical designer, is Jewish.
Hasher started collecting at age 15, when uncles stationed in Europe mailed home such regalia, even while family members in Russia were being executed by the Nazis. Today, Hasher, 63, is one of tens of thousands of Americans who avidly buy and sell memorabilia of the Hitler years. What do he and other collectors find so engrossing in this perverse hobby? In some cases, the items provide awful evidence of the unspeakable -- proof of the Holocaust. Hasher lectures on the war years periodically. But others are drawn by a macabre fascination with this century's most absolute evil.

The most unsettling impulse may also be the most banal: a desire for profit. "I've always considered this better than the stock market," Hasher says. Many items that entered the United States as wartime souvenirs are increasing in value by about 20 percent a year. "Selling it is like selling your children," Hasher laments. "But my intention is to sell a bundle and travel the world for my retirement." The regalia is so pricey (an SS dagger can easily go for $2,000; rarer ones can sell for 10 times that) that many collectors shun publicity for fear of theft. And high prices serve the useful purpose of keeping authentic Nazi items out of the hands of skinheads.

Some dealers tell stories of memorabilia ripped from cases and stomped into the pavement, but nothing keeps it from selling. "With one-of-a-kind items, the value depends on the nerve of the guy who owns it," says Livio Cillo, a Maryland dealer who a year and a half ago purchased a photo album said to be bound in human skin, with "SS" inlaid on the cover. "When I look at this thing, sometimes I wonder: 'Geez, this is part of a human. Should I be worried about having it in the house with me?' But then I figure I've got a lot of other body parts that came through war. I've got finger bones and scalps that Indians cut off their enemies." He points to the album. "I bought it for $5,000. I could ask $75,000."

The Nazi memorabilia pictured here are on sale or private display throughout the United States. Many were photographed at the Militaria Antiques Xtravaganza in Baltimore last month, an annual Ubermarket that boasts millions of items and attracts collectors and dealers from around the world. "You go to Dachau and you start to feel bad about making a living selling this stuff," muses Thomas Wittmann, one of the show's organizers. "Then you look at the prices and you say 'Nah!' I guess it's a little like being an undertaker. How sad can you get that somebody has died when you're making money? Besides, these things don't get you sad." He held out a dagger that once belonged to Hermann Goring, now worth well over $100,000. "If this were the type of thing that truly rich people were interested in -- I mean, the Frank Sinatras of the world -- it could go for $1 million."

COLLECTORS ARE CONSTANTLY ON the lookout for fakes. Last December, a Missouri dealership called the House of Swords and Militaria shut down after selling allegedly ersatz items. A half-dozen had been donated to the Holocaust Memorial Museum in Washington. Jacek Nowakowski, the museum's curator, rejected the pieces. Donations have ranged from crumbly chunks of soap, purportedly made from human fat, to even more macabre specimens. "Recently, we've been in contact with a family who is going to give us a garment bag made of human skin," Nowakowski says. "We'll accept it even if we know it's a fake." He thinks about someday exhibiting the fabrications, alerting fledgling collectors of their existence and providing object lessons of how history gets distorted when there is an insatiable taste for the grotesque.

Meanwhile, antiques shops, flea markets and military shows provide regular opportunities to collectors. So do a handful of mail-order auction houses that tender thousands of pieces of Hitlerian regalia. ("There can't be a much nicer Waffen SS colonel's tunic and breeches," one recent description read, listing a minimum bid of $2,750. The item sold for $4,000.) The catalogues sell hard-to-find items, like an Eva Braun wineglass ($227.50) or a signed birthday greeting from Heinrich Himmler ($559). "With the Nazi stuff, it's a matter of feeling victorious," says a Jewish militaria collector, Alec Tulkoff, explaining why he subscribes to the catalogues. "You may have killed my relatives, but I own you now."

On the Upper East Side of Manhattan, Saul Newman keeps a small store for toys and antiques. Adolescents browse through comics by the window at one end of the shop; the opposite end is filled with medals and pins denoting Hitler Youth membership, Mother's Crosses extolling Reich-bloating fecundity and an assortment of daggers, swords and U-boat badges. A yellow Star of David, with "Jew" embroidered in its center, haunts a glass case. What millions of European Jews were once forced to wear now sells for $75.

"Quite honestly, most of my collectors happen to be Jewish," says Newman, who is Jewish himself. But he says he's not rattled by combative questions about why he sells what he does. "It's my business -- it's merchandise," he answers. "I say, 'If you find it offensive, I'd advise you to purchase it. I'll supply you the matches and you can take it into the bathroom and burn it.' "

NYT 11/28/93

Bottom line is that paying a premium by buying thru an established dealer is a very good idea. There was a dealer I knew, name of Norm Flayderman who sold very high end stuff. He had an authenticity guarantee for lifetime. Norm stood by his stuff.

Last thought. I bought a US Officiers Saber once, at a shop across the river from New Hope PA. Looked sorta like this
Image
It was 100% "of the period". All the pieces were good. Thing is that it was assembled well after the date of purported use (ie 1865). Think about it. The economy of a country is directed to war and the war ends. How much crap is sitting in warehouses waiting for shipment? More to the point: how many pieces of things for war are sitting there waiting for assembly?

The sword I bought was made up of authentic pieces. The giveaway was the blade. It was worn. The rest of it was not.

A good lesson. Every pice of the thing has to show age. And the aging has to be consistant

Thats why I like guns. Unless you go into the stratosphere what you see is pretty much what you got.
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