The POPE against..........

Hot topics in delusion and rationalization.
Loon
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Post by Loon »

Doctor X wrote:With Japanese, you have no such changes for subject and fewer changes for tense. Easier to learn, but harder to figure out from context!
It gets worse- It's very common to drop the subject in Japanese when a native speaker can figure it out. In fact, you have to do this. So the English might be:

I bought a beer. I drank it. I got drunk.

The Japanese would render literally something like

Bought a beer. Drank. Got Drunk.

It's more confusing when you have more potential subjects.
I guess there he chose to err on the side of more votes. -[size=75]Grammatron[/size]
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Doctor X
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Post by Doctor X »

Indeed!

Then you have the fact that the verb is always on the end:

Beer I bought. Drunk. Hariko-chan upon up threw.

Of course you have these "useful" noun particles to put after nouns to figure it out . . . right. . . .

Hariko wa lunch o I ga vomitted.

--J.D.
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MRC_Hans
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Post by MRC_Hans »

Loon: Yes I'm aware that it is normal to use the more formal form, so I am being friendly with Carlos. Considering what we have been through, I think it is justified, but should he interpret it as cendescending, I will manage to live with that ;).

Dr.: Yah, that is the funny thing about Spanish; "¿Comprendes?" is a complete sentence (do thou understand?). And indeed you often see native Spanish speakers omit the substantive in English sentences.

And about Japanese: Ahh, so Yoda japanese is?

Hans

Edited to add: Dammit, can't make that question mark function. Well, never mind.......
Last edited by MRC_Hans on Tue Jun 22, 2004 12:30 pm, edited 2 times in total.
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Doctor X
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Post by Doctor X »

Hans:

Remove the "<>" around the numbers and leave the ";"--you can "quote" my post to see how it works.

As for languages, I knew a guy who had the ability to learn many languages. His comment on Esperanto was, "its verb 'to be' is regular! What self-respecting language has its most useful verb regular?!"

--J.D.
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DocX: FTW. – sparks
"Doctor X wins again." – Pyrrho
"Never sorry to make a racist Fucktard cry." – His Humble MagNIfIcence
"It was the criticisms of Doc X, actually, that let me see more clearly how far the hypocrisy had gone." – clarsct
"I'd leave it up to Doctor X who has been a benevolent tyrant so far." – Grammatron
"Indeed you are a river to your people.
Shit. That's going to end up in your sig." – Pyrrho
"Try a twelve step program and accept Doctor X as your High Power." – asthmatic camel
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Pyrrho
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Post by Pyrrho »

Doctor X wrote:Pyrrho:

You forgot the "Secret Class!"

UFOlogy 410: How to Prevent Hundreds of Thousands of Witnesses, Film, and Vidoetape from Seeing a UFO Save One Deluded Individual

Details in your Decoder Ring. . . .

--J.D.
That's an MiB class.

*flash*

That's a knitting class. You're making a sweater for your dog.
The flash of light you saw in the sky was not a UFO. Swamp gas from a weather balloon was trapped in a thermal pocket and reflected the light from Venus.
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Doctor X
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Post by Doctor X »

Oh . . . it is such a nice sweater . . . now what was my dog's name?

--J.D.
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"Doctor X is just treating you the way he treats everyone--as subhuman crap too dumb to breathe in after you breathe out." – Don
DocX: FTW. – sparks
"Doctor X wins again." – Pyrrho
"Never sorry to make a racist Fucktard cry." – His Humble MagNIfIcence
"It was the criticisms of Doc X, actually, that let me see more clearly how far the hypocrisy had gone." – clarsct
"I'd leave it up to Doctor X who has been a benevolent tyrant so far." – Grammatron
"Indeed you are a river to your people.
Shit. That's going to end up in your sig." – Pyrrho
"Try a twelve step program and accept Doctor X as your High Power." – asthmatic camel
"just like Doc X said." – gnome

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MRC_Hans
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Post by MRC_Hans »

Doctor X wrote:Hans:

Remove the "<>" around the numbers and leave the ";"--you can "quote" my post to see how it works.

As for languages, I knew a guy who had the ability to learn many languages. His comment on Esperanto was, "its verb 'to be' is regular! What self-respecting language has its most useful verb regular?!"

--J.D.
NO, I can't see it in a quote, but I found out. Thanks.

I have a private theory about the regularity thing: In nearly all natural languages I know about, verbs like 'to be' and 'to go' are irregular, often highly so. I think this is because they are the oldest verbs in a language; they have to have been among the first words "invented", so they reflect all kinds of archaic forms that have been weeded out in the more rarely used verbs. It might seem couterintuitive that the most used words are not made regular first, but this is because of the enormous inertia inherent in something being used all the time by all people.

Hans
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thaiboxerken
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Post by thaiboxerken »

I don't agree that faith is a skeptical sense at all, but quite the opposite.

Faith, to me, means.. I don't have evidence, but I am convinced it is true. This is truly a believer stance and not one of skepticism.

This is one issue that skeptics have disagreements on.

I agree that a person can believe in a god or gods and still be skeptical of all other paranormal claims. However, that person is not being skeptical of their god or gods.


I have placed Carlos on ignore because he cannot be reasoned with, and he's too fucking stupid to talk to.
Carlos is on my ignore list.
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Doctor X
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Post by Doctor X »

TKK:

They can be skeptics provided they are willing to consider evidence against their beliefs rationally.

Frankly, I think most people have some bias or belief in something despite evidence--even if it is for their team to win a championship or Keanu Reeves to make a good movie. So long as people recognize their bias and try to account for it, they can be "skeptical."

Now why yu ignore Carlos. Carlos loves you

Just relax

Thanks

--J.D.

P.S. You are suppose to make a big and dramatic production of putting someone on Ignore with a:

PLONK!!

See the Cowar [Stop that!--Ed.] Xouper's posts on Banter as a guide.
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"Doctor X is just treating you the way he treats everyone--as subhuman crap too dumb to breathe in after you breathe out." – Don
DocX: FTW. – sparks
"Doctor X wins again." – Pyrrho
"Never sorry to make a racist Fucktard cry." – His Humble MagNIfIcence
"It was the criticisms of Doc X, actually, that let me see more clearly how far the hypocrisy had gone." – clarsct
"I'd leave it up to Doctor X who has been a benevolent tyrant so far." – Grammatron
"Indeed you are a river to your people.
Shit. That's going to end up in your sig." – Pyrrho
"Try a twelve step program and accept Doctor X as your High Power." – asthmatic camel
"just like Doc X said." – gnome

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thaiboxerken
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Post by thaiboxerken »

They can be skeptics provided they are willing to consider evidence against their beliefs rationally.

I don't agree, since the nature of the belief in a deist god is unfalsifiable. The belief in a god seems purely emotional to me, a need to believe that some sentient life had to start the universe, with no rational reason as to why.

Frankly, I think most people have some bias or belief in something despite evidence

This is true, but I don't think faith is a bias, but a simply believing in something that is not evident at all.
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Carlos
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Post by Carlos »

MRC_Hans wrote:I will make an exception and answer a Carlos post:

Carlos, there is no contradiction between faith and scepticism, quite the contrary.

To say "I have faith in this" means "I do not know, but I choose to accept this"; a true skeptical stance.

In contrast, believers say "I know this is so". That is not a skeptical stance because without proof, you cannot know.

Comprendes?

Hans
Hi MRC Hans :
I know that when things are getting diffcult to the JREFers you need to come in their rescue. Besides you are another JREFer.
I understand that your ignore buttom just make you be more curious.

The point here is that FAITH in something that you pray to obtain something.

That something that you pray to , is ( under the skeptic perspective ), unknown , something without any evidence or proof of existence , something not scientifically explained , something that has to be questioned.

Yes , we are talking about that kind of Faith.
http://www.randi.org/jr/050903.html

Then that FAITH is a true belief.

So please tell me . under what circunstances you accept that a true believer is also an skeptic?
Can a person be both a skeptic and a person of faith?

The answer is, Mr. Randi and I agree, a resounding YES.
We have already Thaiboxerken point of view , he is in disagree with the JREF "skeptical" announce.
I understand his bad/insulting style , since I was the one who was questioning him and made him think.

What it counts is how SKEPTICISM can easily be involved in a double speech.

Are you saying that you completely agree with the "skeptical" position of the JREF regarding that kind of faith?

What about the persons that thinks that is just a marketing strategy in order to collect money from true believers(aka woo woos)?
Is that an honest position?

Theres is a difference about being sceptic and being skeptic.

I hope you "comprende".
If you don't , you can return to your old style.

Thanks,
Carlos
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Doctor X
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Post by Doctor X »

TKK:
Moi: They can be skeptics provided they are willing to consider evidence against their beliefs rationally.

TKK: I don't agree, since the nature of the belief in a deist god is unfalsifiable.
I would disagree with that because it is falsifiable if one is willing to explore their faith sufficiently--consider what one's belief in a deist god means given the reality we experience. Now, one willing to consider this is a skeptic. One who hides one's head in the sand is not.
The belief in a god seems purely emotional to me, a need to believe that some sentient life had to start the universe, with no rational reason as to why.
Probably, but not everyone is free of their emotions. I just expect people to try to think beyond them.
This is true, but I don't think faith is a bias, but a simply believing in something that is not evident at all.
Of course, one with faith will argue it is evident--based on their bias to see evidence uncritically.

--J.D.
Mob of the Mean: Free beanie, cattle-prod and Charley Fan Club!
"Doctor X is just treating you the way he treats everyone--as subhuman crap too dumb to breathe in after you breathe out." – Don
DocX: FTW. – sparks
"Doctor X wins again." – Pyrrho
"Never sorry to make a racist Fucktard cry." – His Humble MagNIfIcence
"It was the criticisms of Doc X, actually, that let me see more clearly how far the hypocrisy had gone." – clarsct
"I'd leave it up to Doctor X who has been a benevolent tyrant so far." – Grammatron
"Indeed you are a river to your people.
Shit. That's going to end up in your sig." – Pyrrho
"Try a twelve step program and accept Doctor X as your High Power." – asthmatic camel
"just like Doc X said." – gnome

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thaiboxerken
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Post by thaiboxerken »

I would disagree with that because it is falsifiable if one is willing to explore their faith sufficiently--consider what one's belief in a deist god means given the reality we experience. Now, one willing to consider this is a skeptic. One who hides one's head in the sand is not.

I just wonder what evidence one would consider against the existence of a deistic god.

Of course, one with faith will argue it is evident--based on their bias to see evidence uncritically.

And that is not a skeptical viewpoint, because not being critical of evidence is simply accepting without question.
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Doctor X
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Post by Doctor X »

TKK:
I just wonder what evidence one would consider against the existence of a deistic god.
Well, that is a topic in and off itself. Probably the simplist answer is that such a deity is unnecessary. I have my over-posted "proof" which leaves only five options for a deity. If a deist wishes to worship any of them . . . well . . . I cannot help him.

I agree with your second point.

--J.D.
Mob of the Mean: Free beanie, cattle-prod and Charley Fan Club!
"Doctor X is just treating you the way he treats everyone--as subhuman crap too dumb to breathe in after you breathe out." – Don
DocX: FTW. – sparks
"Doctor X wins again." – Pyrrho
"Never sorry to make a racist Fucktard cry." – His Humble MagNIfIcence
"It was the criticisms of Doc X, actually, that let me see more clearly how far the hypocrisy had gone." – clarsct
"I'd leave it up to Doctor X who has been a benevolent tyrant so far." – Grammatron
"Indeed you are a river to your people.
Shit. That's going to end up in your sig." – Pyrrho
"Try a twelve step program and accept Doctor X as your High Power." – asthmatic camel
"just like Doc X said." – gnome

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Post by Skeeve »

thaiboxerken wrote:They can be skeptics provided they are willing to consider evidence against their beliefs rationally.

I don't agree, since the nature of the belief in a deist god is unfalsifiable. The belief in a god seems purely emotional to me, a need to believe that some sentient life had to start the universe, with no rational reason as to why.

Frankly, I think most people have some bias or belief in something despite evidence

This is true, but I don't think faith is a bias, but a simply believing in something that is not evident at all.
I agree that a faith in a god is believing in something that is not evident at all, and that it is unfalsifiable, but does that mean that a belief in a god means one can not be a skeptic? I'm not as sure of that, but the skeptic would have to accept all of the physical evidence. I'm not sure what kind of deity this would leave room for.

But if one can imagine such a thing, at least it's not against the actual physical evidences.
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latinijral
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Post by latinijral »

Carlos wrote:
Pyrrho wrote: What does it have to do with the pope?

I don't care if it's on topic or off topic. I don't even care if you continue bringing Hal and Randi into threads. I just think it's stupid for you and latinijral to keep doing it. You have no idea how stupid it makes both of you look to other people.

It's laughable, it really is laughable.
Pyrrho:

Yes you cared.
Relax.

Thaiboxer wrote in this topic (about the Pope) this : "That's not very skeptical of them, is it?"as a reply to this quote : Do you know that some skpetics leaders believe in God and pray?

Then.... why you get upset just because I asked HIM to analyze what a leader of an skeptical Foundation and his main administrator wrote about it?

Are you feeling paranoid or what?

Do you think I can get upset because some few people here refuses to use a rational thinking and prefer to use the insulting method?

Do you think I am telling lies/insults about what Randi and Hal wrote about the subject brought by Thaiboxer?
Can a person be both a skeptic and a person of faith?

The answer is, Mr. Randi and I agree, a resounding YES.

http://www.randi.org/jr/050903.html


And since the Pope and his followers are persons of faith........

And since I once wrote ,at the JREF forum, that some members think Randi is God , then Hal must be his Pope .....

It is still difficult to you to cut that cordon (umbillical) ?

Comon , where were you before to stop the insults here?
Of what are you afraid of?
Let the posters know the complete story.
Maybe some posters don't agree with that quote of Randi and Hal.
Maybe something is wrong in the school of skepticism you were trained.

Thanks,
Carlos
Carlos: this pseudoskeptics are worse everyday.....double speech according to the circunstance.
I hope they can be pure skeptics....not in middle terms.
I love you all !!!
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Loon
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Post by Loon »

MRC_Hans wrote:I have a private theory about the regularity thing: In nearly all natural languages I know about, verbs like 'to be' and 'to go' are irregular, often highly so. I think this is because they are the oldest verbs in a language; they have to have been among the first words "invented", so they reflect all kinds of archaic forms that have been weeded out in the more rarely used verbs. It might seem couterintuitive that the most used words are not made regular first, but this is because of the enormous inertia inherent in something being used all the time by all people.
No way I'm letting a derail on language go to waste. I also have this theory Hans. Even languages with almost no irregular verbs, words like "do" and "go" are irregular. In Japanese, there are only two irregular verbs (well, a case could be made for up to 4, since "go" has one slightly irregular form and "die" is the only verb that ends in "nu," though it behaves exactly like one would expect it to.) The irregular verbs are "do" and "come." Both of these are very irregular and both are used far more often than their counterparts in English.

Another thing I've noticed is that "be" verbs are often very complicated. The English has more forms than any other English verb. In spanish, there are two separate verbs for permanent and transitory states. In Japanese, the division is between animate and inanimate objects (with some disagreement, I beleive, over which to use with robots). Then therei is a different "verb" for ascribing traits (so different things for "It is..." and "There is...") We could probably dig up other examples, too.

Doc wrote:Hariko wa lunch o I ga vomitted
I'm not sure this means what you want it to. It sort of comes across to me as a failed attempt to say that Hariko blew chow all over me. OR maybe that I threw up when I had lunch with Hariko, but not when I had lunch with other people. Or maybe that Hariko makes me (or used to make me) vomit.
I guess there he chose to err on the side of more votes. -[size=75]Grammatron[/size]
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Doctor X
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Post by Doctor X »

Loon-san:

O-genki desu?

Anyways, I was trying to work out getting the topic first--Hariko--and working the particles. Basically I vomitted lunch on Hariko.

Or something like that. . . .

Anyways, I do think language suggests how people think. Since people learn languages they perhaps learn how to think? To give a better "Japanese example:" something like:

Kinõ wa sensei ga Jon o shikatta

"As for yesterday, teacher Jon scolded."

In English we are a state--I am hungry, I am lucky--while in Spanish we have these things--Tengo hambre, tengo suerte--"I have hunger."

Nothing like having a thread with a relevant topic!

--J.D.
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"Doctor X is just treating you the way he treats everyone--as subhuman crap too dumb to breathe in after you breathe out." – Don
DocX: FTW. – sparks
"Doctor X wins again." – Pyrrho
"Never sorry to make a racist Fucktard cry." – His Humble MagNIfIcence
"It was the criticisms of Doc X, actually, that let me see more clearly how far the hypocrisy had gone." – clarsct
"I'd leave it up to Doctor X who has been a benevolent tyrant so far." – Grammatron
"Indeed you are a river to your people.
Shit. That's going to end up in your sig." – Pyrrho
"Try a twelve step program and accept Doctor X as your High Power." – asthmatic camel
"just like Doc X said." – gnome

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Loon
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Post by Loon »

Doctor X wrote:Loon-san:

O-genki desu?
元気だよ!

DocX wrote:Anyways, I do think language suggests how people think. Since people learn languages they perhaps learn how to think?
The Sapir-Worf Hypothesis. It's been somewhat discredited, at least in the strong form (where language controls EVERYTHING), but I find the weak form persuasive. The best evidence for it is a study done where they asked bilingual Japanese/English women a series of questions in Japanese and in English (identical in each language) and the answers were different depending on the language.

Example:
Q: What is most important to you in life?
English A: To drive my enemies before me and hear the lamentations of their women. er.... To have a good career.
Japanese A: To provide for my family.

Of course, this could be accounted for by subtle and unavoidable differences in using the different languages. Or perhaps some sort of stimulus response thing where using the Japanese part of the brain causes them to habitually think one way while the English part is in the habit of thinking another.

I've been told that I give a different impression in Japanese than I do in English.
I guess there he chose to err on the side of more votes. -[size=75]Grammatron[/size]
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Doctor X
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Post by Doctor X »

Loon-sama:

Zakenayo! Fuck!

O-genki desu ka?

I am but a sniveling kyu-rank with my Nihongo.

Anyways, "how" we think is an extremely complex problem of which language is one part. I would agree with the "weak" hypothesis in that one probably has how they organize their thoughts based on their language--and their own style of language.

Of course, written language--which is more labor intensive, and lacks inflection--is often different from a person's spoken language. Though I gather George the Younger writes "nukuler," . . .

--J.D
Mob of the Mean: Free beanie, cattle-prod and Charley Fan Club!
"Doctor X is just treating you the way he treats everyone--as subhuman crap too dumb to breathe in after you breathe out." – Don
DocX: FTW. – sparks
"Doctor X wins again." – Pyrrho
"Never sorry to make a racist Fucktard cry." – His Humble MagNIfIcence
"It was the criticisms of Doc X, actually, that let me see more clearly how far the hypocrisy had gone." – clarsct
"I'd leave it up to Doctor X who has been a benevolent tyrant so far." – Grammatron
"Indeed you are a river to your people.
Shit. That's going to end up in your sig." – Pyrrho
"Try a twelve step program and accept Doctor X as your High Power." – asthmatic camel
"just like Doc X said." – gnome

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