Existence of spirits! do not know ..

Hot topics in delusion and rationalization.
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ed
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Re: Existence of spirits! do not know ..

Post by ed » Sat Sep 14, 2019 10:03 pm

Flacus wrote:
Sat Sep 14, 2019 5:01 pm
In a debate each side must prove their assertions. If a skeptic doesn't believe in spirits, he must explain why. Usually his disbelief is based on rejection of the evidence said to demonstrate the existence of spirits. Therefore in a debate, the skeptic is required to justify his position of disbelief by proving that what is asserted to be evidence for the existence of spirits is invalid. He doesn't have to prove spirits don't exist, he only has to prove there is no justification for belief in spirits.
No, not really.

You are making an assertion. An assertion for which most disinterested parties would disagree. The onus is on you to provide proof. There is a well known meme that summarizes the logic of this but suffice it to say that if you were accused of something it would decidedly not be up to you to prove anything. It would be up to the state to prove their accusation. Just the way it works.

Let me say first that, having read thru this thread, that you have been sorta sloppy. Sorry old bean but there it is.

What you need to do is to define terms. Very specifically and narrowly. Define "spirit". At the same time you are going to have to show how natural law allows for such things or, if no, how they fit in. Arm waving and rants about "thematic parallel planes of existence" are not acceptable. Neologisms are not acceptable. Made up words and phrases have zero standing as explanations.

n.b. Any appeal to quantum mechanics will result in a snap quiz on integral calculus.

Now define the realms of evidence that might be reliable in terms of proving the existence of the thing that you have defined. Clearly videos from one pov without a sterling provenience and without multiple corroborations are useless. If the "manifestations" are phenomenological then it behooves you to provide some framework for them. If they are reproduceable then we are 80% of the way there. We live in a world where video can be produced for $0.50. Having one shitty camera angle is suggestive of fraud.

As a side note: irreproduceability is a hallmark of these sorts of things. The fact that they cannot be reproduced is NOT proof of their existence.

So, start with definitions. They should be clear enough so that a reasonably clever 8th grader could understand them and play them back accurately in his or her own words.

Then we can get to the nature of acceptable evidence. I am happy to watch anything. Just remember that multiple pov's and corroborations from independent observers are necessary before I will spend time watching amateur sci fi.

OK?

Have at it.
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Flacus
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Re: Existence of spirits! do not know ..

Post by Flacus » Sat Sep 14, 2019 10:12 pm

ed wrote:
Sat Sep 14, 2019 10:03 pm
Flacus wrote:
Sat Sep 14, 2019 5:01 pm
In a debate each side must prove their assertions. If a skeptic doesn't believe in spirits, he must explain why. Usually his disbelief is based on rejection of the evidence said to demonstrate the existence of spirits. Therefore in a debate, the skeptic is required to justify his position of disbelief by proving that what is asserted to be evidence for the existence of spirits is invalid. He doesn't have to prove spirits don't exist, he only has to prove there is no justification for belief in spirits.
No, not really.

You are making an assertion. An assertion for which most disinterested parties would disagree. The onus is on you to provide proof. There is a well known meme that summarizes the logic of this but suffice it to say that if you were accused of something it would decidedly not be up to you to prove anything. It would be up to the state to prove their accusation. Just the way it works.

Let me say first that, having read thru this thread, that you have been sorta sloppy. Sorry old bean but there it is.

What you need to do is to define terms. Very specifically and narrowly. Define "spirit". At the same time you are going to have to show how natural law allows for such things or, if no, how they fit in. Arm waving and rants about "thematic parallel planes of existence" are not acceptable. Neologisms are not acceptable. Made up words and phrases have zero standing as explanations.

n.b. Any appeal to quantum mechanics will result in a snap quiz on integral calculus.

Now define the realms of evidence that might be reliable in terms of proving the existence of the thing that you have defined. Clearly videos from one pov without a sterling provenience and without multiple corroborations are useless. If the "manifestations" are phenomenological then it behooves you to provide some framework for them. If they are reproduceable then we are 80% of the way there. We live in a world where video can be produced for $0.50. Having one shitty camera angle is suggestive of fraud.

As a side note: irreproduceability is a hallmark of these sorts of things. The fact that they cannot be reproduced is NOT proof of their existence.

So, start with definitions. They should be clear enough so that a reasonably clever 8th grader could understand them and play them back accurately in his or her own words.

Then we can get to the nature of acceptable evidence. I am happy to watch anything. Just remember that multiple pov's and corroborations from independent observers are necessary before I will spend time watching amateur sci fi.

OK?

Have at it.
I want to know how science or scientists came to the conclusion that this is a groundless belief? what's the name of these scientists? Were they physical?

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Re: Existence of spirits! do not know ..

Post by Flacus » Sat Sep 14, 2019 10:17 pm

I am neither a scientist nor a researcher!

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Re: Existence of spirits! do not know ..

Post by ed » Sat Sep 14, 2019 10:59 pm

Wrong question. Scientists evaluate data . Data collected to address specific questions.

You are putting the cart before the horse
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Re: Existence of spirits! do not know ..

Post by asthmatic camel » Sat Sep 14, 2019 11:23 pm

Image
Shit happens. The older you get, the more often shit happens. So you have to try not to give a shit even when you do. Because, if you give too many shits, you've created your own shit creek and there's no way out other than swimming through the shit. Oh, and fuck.

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Re: Existence of spirits! do not know ..

Post by Flacus » Sat Sep 14, 2019 11:30 pm

Wow !! What a beautiful woman !! When she dies, she will be a spirit! that will interact in our world.

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Re: Existence of spirits! do not know ..

Post by asthmatic camel » Sat Sep 14, 2019 11:37 pm

Image
Shit happens. The older you get, the more often shit happens. So you have to try not to give a shit even when you do. Because, if you give too many shits, you've created your own shit creek and there's no way out other than swimming through the shit. Oh, and fuck.

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Re: Existence of spirits! do not know ..

Post by Flacus » Sat Sep 14, 2019 11:43 pm

It is because scientists have already done the work and found nothing.
That is also the reason skeptics do not believe in ghosts, ghoulies, spirits and other such nonsense. There have always been scientists willing to stick their necks out and investigate such things. Literally hundreds of scientific studies have been done. All showed no findings of such things.
Einstein said that insanity was doing the same thing over and over and expecting a different result. Scientists and skeptics are not insane, so we are not going to do the same thing over and over.

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Re: Existence of spirits! do not know ..

Post by ed » Sun Sep 15, 2019 12:17 am

My work here is done
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Re: Existence of spirits! do not know ..

Post by Pyrrho » Sun Sep 15, 2019 12:17 am

Flacus wrote:
Sat Sep 14, 2019 11:43 pm
It is because scientists have already done the work and found nothing.
That is also the reason skeptics do not believe in ghosts, ghoulies, spirits and other such nonsense. There have always been scientists willing to stick their necks out and investigate such things. Literally hundreds of scientific studies have been done. All showed no findings of such things.
Einstein said that insanity was doing the same thing over and over and expecting a different result. Scientists and skeptics are not insane, so we are not going to do the same thing over and over.
Forgot who you were logged in as?
The flash of light you saw in the sky was not a UFO. Swamp gas from a weather balloon was trapped in a thermal pocket and reflected the light from Venus.

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Re: Existence of spirits! do not know ..

Post by Pyrrho » Sun Sep 15, 2019 12:25 am

Image
Marilyn Monroe as Theda Bara by Richard Avedon for Life magazine - 1958
The flash of light you saw in the sky was not a UFO. Swamp gas from a weather balloon was trapped in a thermal pocket and reflected the light from Venus.

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Re: Existence of spirits! do not know ..

Post by Abdul Alhazred » Sun Sep 15, 2019 12:28 am

An NBL that fits the theme of the thread. 8)
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Re: Existence of spirits! do not know ..

Post by Pyrrho » Sun Sep 15, 2019 12:31 am

Image
The flash of light you saw in the sky was not a UFO. Swamp gas from a weather balloon was trapped in a thermal pocket and reflected the light from Venus.

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Re: Existence of spirits! do not know ..

Post by Witness » Sun Sep 15, 2019 12:36 am

The thread is morphing…

Image

So I'll slip in a redhead for sparks. :wink:

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Re: Existence of spirits! do not know ..

Post by ed » Sun Sep 15, 2019 1:21 am

48356396_1227495127388462_1271922215016726528_n.jpg
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Re: Existence of spirits! do not know ..

Post by asthmatic camel » Sun Sep 15, 2019 1:22 am

This is more sparks' era. Reckon she's been measuring him up...

Image
Shit happens. The older you get, the more often shit happens. So you have to try not to give a shit even when you do. Because, if you give too many shits, you've created your own shit creek and there's no way out other than swimming through the shit. Oh, and fuck.

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Re: Existence of spirits! do not know ..

Post by Witness » Sun Sep 15, 2019 1:47 am

Spiritism took root in Brazil with the help of Chico Xavier (1910-2002), a celebrity medium from the state of Minas Gerais. Mediums are another critical aspect of Spiritism; they are those who can communicate with spirits of the afterlife through séances or other means. Xavier, for instance, was renowned for his ability to write letters from the dead to their loved ones (six of which were used as legitimate evidence in murder trials). The charisma and popularity of Xavier contributed to an explosion of Spiritist believers in Brazil.

Today, Brazil is the most Spiritist country in the world. With over 3.8 million believers, Spiritism is the third largest religious group after Catholics and evangelicals. In the city of Palmelo, for example, one in every seven people is a medium. The majority of followers are from my home in Rio de Janeiro, followed closely by São Paulo and Minas Gerais. Interestingly, most Spiritists are highly educated, middle to upper class elites (over 98 percent are literate). This can be attributed to the fact that Spiritistism demands intense personal study and research to be truly understood, as well as a common sentiment that Spiritism is more refined than traditional Catholicism.
https://berkleycenter.georgetown.edu/po ... le-spirits

:roll:

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Re: Existence of spirits! do not know ..

Post by sparks » Sun Sep 15, 2019 4:15 am

Dumb as fuck.

What we got here is a real live idiot folks.

Have fun. :)
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Re: Existence of spirits! do not know ..

Post by Anaxagoras » Sun Sep 15, 2019 4:57 am

Flacus wrote:
Sat Sep 14, 2019 5:01 pm
In a debate each side must prove their assertions. If a skeptic doesn't believe in spirits, he must explain why. Usually his disbelief is based on rejection of the evidence said to demonstrate the existence of spirits. Therefore in a debate, the skeptic is required to justify his position of disbelief by proving that what is asserted to be evidence for the existence of spirits is invalid. He doesn't have to prove spirits don't exist, he only has to prove there is no justification for belief in spirits.
In order for me to argue against the validity of any evidence you have presented, you would first have to prevent evidence, which you have not done. In your own words, please. Not a link to a treatise written by a 19th Century believer in mediums and spirits. That's all been debunked before by others and I'm not going to rehash those arguments. So far, I think you've mentioned yawning and chills, but these are simple physiological phenomena, not evidence of spirits.
A fool thinks himself to be wise, but a wise man knows himself to be a fool.
William Shakespeare

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Re: Existence of spirits! do not know ..

Post by Anaxagoras » Sun Sep 15, 2019 5:06 am

Pyrrho wrote:
Sun Sep 15, 2019 12:17 am
Flacus wrote:
Sat Sep 14, 2019 11:43 pm
It is because scientists have already done the work and found nothing.
That is also the reason skeptics do not believe in ghosts, ghoulies, spirits and other such nonsense. There have always been scientists willing to stick their necks out and investigate such things. Literally hundreds of scientific studies have been done. All showed no findings of such things.
Einstein said that insanity was doing the same thing over and over and expecting a different result. Scientists and skeptics are not insane, so we are not going to do the same thing over and over.
Forgot who you were logged in as?
Is our friend Flatus now arguing against himself in the same thread or have we caught out a sock puppet here? :notsure:
A fool thinks himself to be wise, but a wise man knows himself to be a fool.
William Shakespeare