The Decalogue--for Carlos

Hot topics in delusion and rationalization.
User avatar
Doctor X
Posts: 72897
Joined: Fri Jun 04, 2004 8:09 pm
Title: Collective Messiah
Location: Your Mom

The Decalogue--for Carlos

Post by Doctor X »

I have learned to keep copies of researched answers to topics that arise on a number of sites--such as the Decalogue, the Documentary Hypothesis, whether or not Exodus or the Conquest happened, et cetera. I have updated some details.

This was originally compiled whilst I watch'd the New England Patriots defeat some guys from a southern state in the Super Bowl. . . .

The Decalogue

Well, it required a sacrifice of a small child--Staff did not post that warning against Girl Scouts sellers for no reason--upon the battlements, but the Patriots prevailed which allows me to cracketh my Friedman to address those Pesky Roughly 10 Commandments.

First, a brief summary of who the writers were according to Friedman's summary of the Documentary Hypothesis. His second source provides a nice summary of the arguments for multi-authorship in a 31-page introduction, whilst providing the texts of the Pentateuch divided into the authors. This makes seeing how the Redactor blended the J and P versions of the Flood Myth much easier, for example.

J: is the "Jahwist" author, known for his use of YHWH for the name of the deity. He never uses Elohim, though individuals in the J stories may. He comes from Judah. Friedman demonstrates the connection between J and Judah which I will not summarize for space. Hey, if you have not read the book yet, consider it a Christmas, Hanukah, or Annual Celebration of the Eternal Cycle of Life, Death, and Rebirth project.

E: is the "Eloist" author, known for his use of Elohim for the name of the deity. As noted on another thread, this is actually plural, and while the traditions may preserve a fully polytheistic conceptions, by context, the name refers to at least a deity more important than the others. Just to cause confusion, E will switch to YHWH after he appears to Moses and identifies himself as such. Friedman identifies him as a Shiloh Levite priest, possibly descended from the Mosaic line, named Bob [Stop that.--Ed.]. Right, again, he devotes about a chapter to the evidence for this.

D: is the Deutronomistic author, who, according to Friedman, writes a lot of the OT--Deuteronomy-Joshua-Judges-1 & 2 Samuel-1 & 2 Kings. He has similar attitudes as E--hates Aaronid priesthood: "In his introduction and conclusion to the book of Deuteronomy, he mentioned Aaron only twice: once to say that he died, and once to say that God was mad enough to destroy him in the matter of the golden calf." Long . . . long . . . long story short, Friedman suggests he is Jeremiah or, more likely, Jeremiah's scribe Baruch.

D generally uses JE, but does quote P to reverse P. For example, the book of Jeremiah contains quotes from P. It ". . . reverses the language of the P creation story, denies that God emphasized matters of sacrifices in the day that Israel left Egypt. Jeremiah knew the Priestly laws and stories. He did not like them, but he knew them."

P: is the "Priestly" author. He uses JE and follows the stories. Indeed, he uses Elohim like E, though, according to Friedman, his style is so identifiable, he was easy to separate from E. Also, the "Elohim" stories have "doublets"--repeated material--which suggests two authors. Friedman identifies him as an Aaronid priest, or one serving their interests. P promotes Aaron and diminishes Moses:
P was written as an alternative to JE. The JE stories regularly said: "And Yahweh said unto Moses. . . ." But the author of P often made it: "And Yahweh said unto Moses and unto Aaron. . . ."
Again, Friedman goes into detail. Here is a fun one for you Creation Fans:
. . . in the twin stories of the flood . . . the J version said that Noah took seven pairs of all the clean (i.e., fit for sacrifice) animals and one pair of the unclean animals on the ark. but P just said that it was two of every kind of animal. Why? Beacause, in J, at the end of the story Noah offers a sacrifice. He therefore needs more than two of each of the clean animals of his sacrifice would wipe out a species. In P's perspective, however, two sheep and two cows are enough because there will be no portrayals of sacrifices until the consecration of Aaron.
Now, let us define who wrote what:

E Writer: Ex 15:25b-26
There he [YHWH--Ed.] made for them a statute and an ordinance and there he proved them, saying, "if you will diligently hearken to the voice of YHWH your god, and do that which is right in his eyes, and give heed to his commandments and keep all his statutes, I will put none of the diseases upon you which I put upon the Egyptians; for I am YHWH, your healer."
okay . . . not much there. According to Friedman, the long E section of rules, Ex 21:1-27; 22:1-30; 23:1-33, is considered based on an earlier "Covenant Code" source. As noted below, E will have Moses do the "smash the tables" thing. Moses finds out about Aaron and his Golden Calf:
Ex 32:15-16 And Moses turned, and went down from the mountain with the two tables of the testimony in his hands, table that were written on both sides; on the one side and on the other were they written. And the tables were the work of god, and the writing was the writing of god, graven upon the tables.
J Writer: Ex 34:14-28

The YHWHistic Decalogue is actually part of a section of commandments. YHWH starts giving commandments right at the beginning of the chapter. Ex 34:1b has the Redactor explaining the problem that the J story does not have Moses smash the tablets.
YHWH said to Moses, "Cut two tables of stone like the first; and I will write upon the tables the words that were on the first tables, which you broke.
Friedman suggests that the E writer wished to raise doubts about Judah's central religious shrine--it could not have had the original tablets:
The Temple in Judah housed the ark that was supposed to contain the two tablets of the Ten Commandments. According to the E story of the golden calf, Moses smashes the tablets. That means that according to the E source the ark down south in the Temple in Jerusalem either contains unauthentic tables or not tablets at all.

The author of E, in fashioning the golden calf story, attacked both the Israelite and the Judean religious establishments. Both had excluded his group.
Nothing sets the "10 Commandments" apart in the J text. The J text that is similar to the Decalogue of the other writers is:
"(for you shall worship no other god, for YHWH is a jealous god), lest you make a covenant with the inhabitants of the land, and when they play the harlot after their gods and sacrifice to their gods and one invites you, you eat of his sacrifice, and you take of their daughters for your sons, and their daughters play the harlot after their gods and make your sons play the harlot after their gods. You shall make for yourself no molten gods. The feast of unleaven bread you shall keep. Seven days you shall eat unleavened bread, as I commanded you, at the time appointed in the month Abib; for in the month Abib you came out from Egypt. All that opens the womb is mine, all your male cattle, the firstlings of cow and sheep. The firstling of an ass you shall redeem with a lamb, or if you will not redeem it you shall break its neck. All the first-born of your sons you shall redeem. And none shall appear before me empty. Six days you shall work, but on the seventh day you shall rest; in plowing time and in harvest you shall rest. And you shall observe the feast of weeks, the first fruits of wheat harvest, and the feast of ingathering at the year's end. Three times in the year shall all your males appear before YHWH god, the god of Israel. For I will cast out nations before you and enlarge your borders; neither shall any many desire your land, when you go up to appear before YHWH your god three times in the year. You shall not offer the blood of my sacrifice with leaven; neither shall the sacrifice of the feast of the passover be left until the morning. The first of the first fruits of your ground you shall bring to the house of YHWH your god. You shall not boil a kid in its mother's milk."

And YHWH said to Moses, "Write these words; in accordance with these words I have made a covenant with you and with Israel." And he was there with YHWH forty days and forty nights; he neither ate bread nor drank water. And he wrote upon tables the words of the covenant, the words. [The RSV admits to using "ten commandments" for the Hebrew "words."--Ed.]
and is considerably longer than ten! Good thing Former-Chief Justice Moore did not choose this version. Fans wilt note that this version contains the J version of my favorite commandment--child sacrifice! In this version, J allows "redeeming" the first-born whereas in the E commandment--considered part of the "Covenant Code"--no such redemption is allowed [Ex 22:29b--Ed.].

Where are our favorite commandments? No sabbath rule, no, "thou shalt nots"--kill/murder, covet, bear false witness--though be careful about boiling kids in their mother's milk.

P Writer: Ex 20:11-17

Similarly, these are not called the "10 Commandments," and the commandments are rather longer than ten. P, a big Aaron fan since the writer is considered part of the Aaronid priesthood, adds Aaron to the story.
And god spoke all these words, saying, "I am YHWH your god, who brought you out of the land of Egypt, out of the house of bondage. You shall have no other gods before/besides me. You shall not make for yourself a graven image, or any likeness of anything that is in heaven above, or that is in the earth beneath, or that is in the water under the earth; you shall not bow down to them or serve them; for I YHWH your god am a jealous god, visiting the iniquity of the fathers upon the children to the third and the fourth generation of those who hate me, but showing steadfast love to thousands of those who love me and keep my commandments. You shall not take the name of YHWH your god in vain; for YHWH will not hold him guiltless who takes his name in vain. Remember the sabbath day to sanctify it. Six days you shall labor and do all your work; but the seventh day is a sabbath day to YHWH your god; in it you shall not do any work, you, or your son, or your daughter, your manservant, or your maidservant, or your cattle, or the sojourner who is within your gates; because in six days YHWH made the heavens and the earth, the sea and all that is in them, and he rested on the seventh day. Therefore YHWH blessed the sabbath day and sanctified it. Honor your father and your mother, that your days may be long in the land which YHWH your god gives you. You shall not kill. You shall not commit adultery. You shall not steal. You shall not bear false witness against your neighbor. You shall not covet your neighbor's house; you shall not covet your neighbor's wife, or his manservant, or his maidservant, or his ox, or his ass, or anything that is your neighbor's."
again, quite a bit of writing with little correspondence to the J version. Apparently, YHWH dictates different versions. I "corrected" the RSV version to Friedman's translation, because he notes that P quotes his own creation story. D, as seen below, prefers to cite the D reason for keeping commandments--he got you out of slavery. Friedman notes that a Dead Sea Scroll text combines both reasons [All Souls Deuteronomy Scroll--Ed.].

D Writer: Deut 5:6-17
[Perpetually dying Moses summons "all Israel" to re-state the commandments.--Ed.] "'I am YHWH your god, who brought you out of the land of Egypt, out of the house of boundage. You shall have no other gods before/besides me. You shall not make for yourself a graven image, or any likeness of anything that is in heaven above, or that is on the earth beneath, or that is in the water under the earth; you shall not bow down to them or serve them; for I YHWH your god am a jealous god, visiting the the iniquity of the fathers upon the children to the third and the fourth generation of those who hate me, but showing steadfast love to thousands of those who love me and keep my commandments. You shall not take the name of YHWH your god in vain: for YHWH will not hold him guiltless who takes his name in vain. Keep the sabbath day to sanctify it, as YHWH your god commanded you. Six days you shall labor and do all your work; but the seventh day is a sabbath day to YHWH your god; in it you shall not do any work, you, or your son, or your daughter, your manservant, or your maidservant, or your cattle, or the sojourner who is within your gates, that your manservant and your maidservant may rest as well as you. You shall remember that you were a slave in the land of Egypt, and YHWH your god brought you out from there with a strong hand and an outstretched arm. Therefore YHWH your god commanded you to observe the sabbath day. Honor your father and your mother, that your days may be prolonged, and that it may go well with you, in the land which YHWH your god gives you. You shall not kill. You shall not commit adultery. Neither shall you steal. Neither shall you bear false witness against your neighbor. Neither shall you covet your neighbor's wife; you shall not desire your neighbor's house, his field, or his manservant, or his maidservant, or his ox, or his ass, or anything that is your neighbor's.'
Again, no mention of this "ten commandments." Notice the different reasons for keeping the sabbath in the D and P versions. We can see D quoting P material while dropping the P creation reference.

The reason for the differences, then, are different authors with different agendas.

--J.D.

Reference:

Friedman RE. Who Wrote the Bible?. 2nd Ed. San Francisco: Harper Collins, 1997.

Friedman RE. The Bible with Sources Revealed. San Francisco: Harper Collins, 2003.
Mob of the Mean: Free beanie, cattle-prod and Charley Fan Club!
"Doctor X is just treating you the way he treats everyone--as subhuman crap too dumb to breathe in after you breathe out." – Don
DocX: FTW. – sparks
"Doctor X wins again." – Pyrrho
"Never sorry to make a racist Fucktard cry." – His Humble MagNIfIcence
"It was the criticisms of Doc X, actually, that let me see more clearly how far the hypocrisy had gone." – clarsct
"I'd leave it up to Doctor X who has been a benevolent tyrant so far." – Grammatron
"Indeed you are a river to your people.
Shit. That's going to end up in your sig." – Pyrrho
"Try a twelve step program and accept Doctor X as your High Power." – asthmatic camel
"just like Doc X said." – gnome

ImageWS CHAMPIONS X4!!!! ImageNBA CHAMPIONS!! Stanley Cup!Image SB CHAMPIONS X6!!!!!! Image
User avatar
Doctor X
Posts: 72897
Joined: Fri Jun 04, 2004 8:09 pm
Title: Collective Messiah
Location: Your Mom

Post by Doctor X »

Given the pathos of his demand that I explain the differences between the versions, this must have rendered him mute.

--J.D.
Mob of the Mean: Free beanie, cattle-prod and Charley Fan Club!
"Doctor X is just treating you the way he treats everyone--as subhuman crap too dumb to breathe in after you breathe out." – Don
DocX: FTW. – sparks
"Doctor X wins again." – Pyrrho
"Never sorry to make a racist Fucktard cry." – His Humble MagNIfIcence
"It was the criticisms of Doc X, actually, that let me see more clearly how far the hypocrisy had gone." – clarsct
"I'd leave it up to Doctor X who has been a benevolent tyrant so far." – Grammatron
"Indeed you are a river to your people.
Shit. That's going to end up in your sig." – Pyrrho
"Try a twelve step program and accept Doctor X as your High Power." – asthmatic camel
"just like Doc X said." – gnome

ImageWS CHAMPIONS X4!!!! ImageNBA CHAMPIONS!! Stanley Cup!Image SB CHAMPIONS X6!!!!!! Image
User avatar
Skeeve
Posts: 12735
Joined: Wed Jun 09, 2004 7:35 am

Post by Skeeve »

Doctor X wrote:Given the pathos of his demand that I explain the differences between the versions, this must have rendered him mute.

--J.D.
I admit to total confusion. I believe you're pointing to some of the various authors whose work has been combined into the so-called Christian Bible, are you not? Beyond that, I admit that I don't really understand what you're saying, but I find myself quite interested, as in fact my own reading of the so-called "word of god" has led me to wonder how anything so powerful and omnipotent can be so terribly confused.

I'd be very grateful if you could explain a bit more about what the various things you've described, J.D.
Then Skank Of America could start in...
User avatar
Doctor X
Posts: 72897
Joined: Fri Jun 04, 2004 8:09 pm
Title: Collective Messiah
Location: Your Mom

Post by Doctor X »

Skeeve:
I admit to total confusion.
I posted this to prevent a hijack. On another thread, Our Favorite Lying, Hypocritical Cowardly Carlos lost his cookies when I noted that more than one version of the "10 Commandments" exists. He demanded I prove this, and I directed him here to prevent what would obviously be a big hijack.

That he has avoided this thread rather indicates the "sincerity" of his request. Of course he spent over a year bitching on the JREF because no one believed him that UFOs took out the Twin Towers!

Anyways, with those sordid details explained. . . .
I believe you're pointing to some of the various authors whose work has been combined into the so-called Christian Bible, are you not?
Actually, scholars prefer the term "Hebrew Bible" though I tend to use "OT" because it is more recognizable. The multi-authorship of the Pentateuch [First Five Book of the Tanach or Torah--Ed.] is the basis of the Documentary Hypothesis. I identified the authors above.

The multi-authorship explains why the versions differ.
Beyond that, I admit that I don't really understand what you're saying, but I find myself quite interested, as in fact my own reading of the so-called "word of god" has led me to wonder how anything so powerful and omnipotent can be so terribly confused.
Well, the individual authors did not expect to be put into the same book! This is the same with the NT, incidentally. Lk and Mt used Mk as a source and rewrote him to their purposes. They also shared a lost source called "Q"--for the German quelle or "source." Again, none of the authors expected to be thown in the same book with one another.
I'd be very grateful if you could explain a bit more about what the various things you've described, J.D.
I hope that does some of it. Do you have some more specific questions?

--J.D.
Mob of the Mean: Free beanie, cattle-prod and Charley Fan Club!
"Doctor X is just treating you the way he treats everyone--as subhuman crap too dumb to breathe in after you breathe out." – Don
DocX: FTW. – sparks
"Doctor X wins again." – Pyrrho
"Never sorry to make a racist Fucktard cry." – His Humble MagNIfIcence
"It was the criticisms of Doc X, actually, that let me see more clearly how far the hypocrisy had gone." – clarsct
"I'd leave it up to Doctor X who has been a benevolent tyrant so far." – Grammatron
"Indeed you are a river to your people.
Shit. That's going to end up in your sig." – Pyrrho
"Try a twelve step program and accept Doctor X as your High Power." – asthmatic camel
"just like Doc X said." – gnome

ImageWS CHAMPIONS X4!!!! ImageNBA CHAMPIONS!! Stanley Cup!Image SB CHAMPIONS X6!!!!!! Image
User avatar
Skeeve
Posts: 12735
Joined: Wed Jun 09, 2004 7:35 am

Post by Skeeve »

Doctor X wrote:Skeeve:

I posted this to prevent a hijack. On another thread, Our Favorite Lying, Hypocritical Cowardly Carlos lost his cookies when I noted that more than one version of the "10 Commandments" exists. He demanded I prove this, and I directed him here to prevent what would obviously be a big hijack.
Well, personally, this is a lot more interesting than the lunatic UFO proponent I'd gathered that from quote some flurry of PM's and such, it seems that Carlos and latin... are known to most as the 'Swett Sox' who think that lens flare is UFO's, or something like that to me.

So I don't consider it a hijacking, I think it's a pretty neat set of facts to put forth.

...
I believe you're pointing to some of the various authors whose work has been combined into the so-called Christian Bible, are you not?
Actually, scholars prefer the term "Hebrew Bible" though I tend to use "OT" because it is more recognizable. The multi-authorship of the Pentateuch [First Five Book of the Tanach or Torah--Ed.] is the basis of the Documentary Hypothesis. I identified the authors above.

The multi-authorship explains why the versions differ.
Ok, now I'm starting to understand what you're saying. I hadn't realized that the 10 commandments were specifically involved until now, perhaps I'm just not with the program, but now that I know that, more becomes clear.
Beyond that, I admit that I don't really understand what you're saying, but I find myself quite interested, as in fact my own reading of the so-called "word of god" has led me to wonder how anything so powerful and omnipotent can be so terribly confused.
Well, the individual authors did not expect to be put into the same book! This is the same with the NT, incidentally. Lk and Mt used Mk as a source and rewrote him to their purposes. They also shared a lost source called "Q"--for the German quelle or "source." Again, none of the authors expected to be thown in the same book with one another.
Thank you, that does rather match up with what my own undocumented, unsupported speculations had led me to, and rather well. I presume this also holds for the variant creation story in Genesis, as well as the variations on jesus' birth and such in Mt and Lk that means Matthew and Luke, right? and so on. I've actually forgotten which two of the would-be gospels are the contradictory ones on that subject, but that hardly denies what you're saying, does it?
I'd be very grateful if you could explain a bit more about what the various things you've described, J.D.
I hope that does some of it. Do you have some more specific questions?

--J.D.
I'll have to digest what's present, first. I managed to forget a great deal of the NT and OT after I read it carefully, it just blurred into a sea of contradictions, repetitions, and exhortations to be one with the tribe for me.
Then Skank Of America could start in...
User avatar
Doctor X
Posts: 72897
Joined: Fri Jun 04, 2004 8:09 pm
Title: Collective Messiah
Location: Your Mom

Post by Doctor X »

Yes.

Mt=Matthew and Lk=Luke . . . and Mk=Mark and Jn=John. These are not the real names of the authors--the names are unknown. It was a religious tradition which scholars use for convenience.

With regards to birth narratives, Mk has none, nor does Jn. Lk dates the narrative to a census of Quirinius which forces his date to about 6 CE. Mt dates it to Herod who died around 4 BCE. Hence the contradiction--not to mention completely different details.

--J.D.
Mob of the Mean: Free beanie, cattle-prod and Charley Fan Club!
"Doctor X is just treating you the way he treats everyone--as subhuman crap too dumb to breathe in after you breathe out." – Don
DocX: FTW. – sparks
"Doctor X wins again." – Pyrrho
"Never sorry to make a racist Fucktard cry." – His Humble MagNIfIcence
"It was the criticisms of Doc X, actually, that let me see more clearly how far the hypocrisy had gone." – clarsct
"I'd leave it up to Doctor X who has been a benevolent tyrant so far." – Grammatron
"Indeed you are a river to your people.
Shit. That's going to end up in your sig." – Pyrrho
"Try a twelve step program and accept Doctor X as your High Power." – asthmatic camel
"just like Doc X said." – gnome

ImageWS CHAMPIONS X4!!!! ImageNBA CHAMPIONS!! Stanley Cup!Image SB CHAMPIONS X6!!!!!! Image
User avatar
Skeeve
Posts: 12735
Joined: Wed Jun 09, 2004 7:35 am

Post by Skeeve »

Doctor X wrote:Yes.

Mt=Matthew and Lk=Luke . . . and Mk=Mark and Jn=John. These are not the real names of the authors--the names are unknown. It was a religious tradition which scholars use for convenience.
Thanks. I had realized that none of the names were the real names of authors long ago, after all, I don't know of any "Matthew" in Latin, nor any "John" in Greek. I know that some cognates exist, but they aren't "Matthew" and "John", and in any case, it reads like "John and Matthew Smith"

With regards to birth narratives, Mk has none, nor does Jn. Lk dates the narrative to a census of Quirinius which forces his date to about 6 CE. Mt dates it to Herod who died around 4 BCE. Hence the contradiction--not to mention completely different details.

--J.D.
Thanks, I'd certainly forgotten which two of those "gospels"were the ones who were contradictory about the birth story.

Somebody told me once that there were more gospels, but that they have been hidden or suppressed. Is there any real knowlege on that?
Then Skank Of America could start in...
User avatar
Pyrrho
Posts: 30063
Joined: Sat Jun 05, 2004 2:17 am
Title: Man in Black
Location: Division 6

Post by Pyrrho »

Skeeve wrote:
Doctor X wrote:Yes.

Mt=Matthew and Lk=Luke . . . and Mk=Mark and Jn=John. These are not the real names of the authors--the names are unknown. It was a religious tradition which scholars use for convenience.
Thanks. I had realized that none of the names were the real names of authors long ago, after all, I don't know of any "Matthew" in Latin, nor any "John" in Greek. I know that some cognates exist, but they aren't "Matthew" and "John", and in any case, it reads like "John and Matthew Smith"

With regards to birth narratives, Mk has none, nor does Jn. Lk dates the narrative to a census of Quirinius which forces his date to about 6 CE. Mt dates it to Herod who died around 4 BCE. Hence the contradiction--not to mention completely different details.

--J.D.
Thanks, I'd certainly forgotten which two of those "gospels"were the ones who were contradictory about the birth story.

Somebody told me once that there were more gospels, but that they have been hidden or suppressed. Is there any real knowlege on that?
Possibly suppressed and/or hidden at one time in history, but not in the modern day. A few collections of these rejected "gospels" are available. I have "The Other Bible", and "The Lost Books of the Bible". Used to have "The Forgotten Books of Eden" -- loaned that one out, never saw it again. Very interesting reading.
The flash of light you saw in the sky was not a UFO. Swamp gas from a weather balloon was trapped in a thermal pocket and reflected the light from Venus.
User avatar
Skeeve
Posts: 12735
Joined: Wed Jun 09, 2004 7:35 am

Post by Skeeve »

Pyrrho wrote:
Somebody told me once that there were more gospels, but that they have been hidden or suppressed. Is there any real knowlege on that?
Possibly suppressed and/or hidden at one time in history, but not in the modern day. A few collections of these rejected "gospels" are available. I have "The Other Bible", and "The Lost Books of the Bible". Used to have "The Forgotten Books of Eden" -- loaned that one out, never saw it again. Very interesting reading.
Thank you, thank you! I'll try to track them down, just to answer my own curiousity.
Last edited by Skeeve on Wed Jun 23, 2004 2:08 am, edited 1 time in total.
Then Skank Of America could start in...
User avatar
Pyrrho
Posts: 30063
Joined: Sat Jun 05, 2004 2:17 am
Title: Man in Black
Location: Division 6

Post by Pyrrho »

Yeah, there's some wild stuff in some of them -- makes Revelations look like a marshmallow roast.
The flash of light you saw in the sky was not a UFO. Swamp gas from a weather balloon was trapped in a thermal pocket and reflected the light from Venus.
User avatar
Skeeve
Posts: 12735
Joined: Wed Jun 09, 2004 7:35 am

Post by Skeeve »

Pyrrho wrote:Yeah, there's some wild stuff in some of them -- makes Revelations look like a marshmallow roast.
Oh oh. I always thought that the guy who wrote Revelation was into some serious mushrooms or something.

Did they have some kind of popular psychoactive drug then?
Then Skank Of America could start in...
User avatar
Pyrrho
Posts: 30063
Joined: Sat Jun 05, 2004 2:17 am
Title: Man in Black
Location: Division 6

Post by Pyrrho »

Skeeve wrote:
Pyrrho wrote:Yeah, there's some wild stuff in some of them -- makes Revelations look like a marshmallow roast.
Oh oh. I always thought that the guy who wrote Revelation was into some serious mushrooms or something.

Did they have some kind of popular psychoactive drug then?
Haven't we always?
The flash of light you saw in the sky was not a UFO. Swamp gas from a weather balloon was trapped in a thermal pocket and reflected the light from Venus.
User avatar
Skeeve
Posts: 12735
Joined: Wed Jun 09, 2004 7:35 am

Post by Skeeve »

Pyrrho wrote:
Skeeve wrote:
Pyrrho wrote:Yeah, there's some wild stuff in some of them -- makes Revelations look like a marshmallow roast.
Oh oh. I always thought that the guy who wrote Revelation was into some serious mushrooms or something.

Did they have some kind of popular psychoactive drug then?
Haven't we always?
It seems like it, but I don't know anything about then. Does anybody know what they used?

I mean, Revelation looks like someone on a really bad trip after church, doesn't it? I mean, the lamb with 5 horns, or 7, was it, and all that other stuff. Whoooeeeeee, somebody was flyin' high on that.
Then Skank Of America could start in...
User avatar
Pyrrho
Posts: 30063
Joined: Sat Jun 05, 2004 2:17 am
Title: Man in Black
Location: Division 6

Post by Pyrrho »

Skeeve wrote:
Pyrrho wrote:
Skeeve wrote:
Pyrrho wrote:Yeah, there's some wild stuff in some of them -- makes Revelations look like a marshmallow roast.
Oh oh. I always thought that the guy who wrote Revelation was into some serious mushrooms or something.

Did they have some kind of popular psychoactive drug then?
Haven't we always?
It seems like it, but I don't know anything about then. Does anybody know what they used?

I mean, Revelation looks like someone on a really bad trip after church, doesn't it? I mean, the lamb with 5 horns, or 7, was it, and all that other stuff. Whoooeeeeee, somebody was flyin' high on that.
The writer probably wasn't high or drunk or anything like that. Revelations is chock full of symbolism and allegory. Readers who are not scholars of that history do not understand the symbolism. Most of it had to do with Rome and the politics of that day and age, not the far-flung future.
The flash of light you saw in the sky was not a UFO. Swamp gas from a weather balloon was trapped in a thermal pocket and reflected the light from Venus.
User avatar
Skeeve
Posts: 12735
Joined: Wed Jun 09, 2004 7:35 am

Post by Skeeve »

Pyrrho wrote:The writer probably wasn't high or drunk or anything like that. Revelations is chock full of symbolism and allegory. Readers who are not scholars of that history do not understand the symbolism. Most of it had to do with Rome and the politics of that day and age, not the far-flung future.
I understand that some of it comes from political allegory, but I admit that I wonder h ow someone would come up with some of those images with a straight face, or a straight mind. Things like the 7 angles with the 7 vials. I realize that there was a kabalistic thing going there maybe that's the wrong name, but you'll tell me if it is but the great whore that sitteth upon many waters? Seven heads and ten horns? Thanks to the skeptic's annotated bible here, I have no idea where to look in my house for this text.

That reads like a really bad trip.
Then Skank Of America could start in...
User avatar
Electric Monk
Posts: 170
Joined: Mon Jun 14, 2004 6:02 pm
Location: Orange County, CA. - The Leftmost Notch on the Bible Belt

Post by Electric Monk »

Pyrrho wrote:Possibly suppressed and/or hidden at one time in history, but not in the modern day. A few collections of these rejected "gospels" are available. I have "The Other Bible", and "The Lost Books of the Bible". Used to have "The Forgotten Books of Eden" -- loaned that one out, never saw it again. Very interesting reading.
I recommend:
Noncanonical Homepage
Internet Ancient History Sourcebook
Ecole - Early Church Documents (Hmm... a lot of broken links, right now.)
[size=75]I'm in love with the universe, but she doesn't even know I exist.
TAM reports, SoCal events, and more on my [url=http://TheElectricMonk.com]website[/url].[/size]
User avatar
Doctor X
Posts: 72897
Joined: Fri Jun 04, 2004 8:09 pm
Title: Collective Messiah
Location: Your Mom

Post by Doctor X »

Pyrrho et Skeeve:

Gospels:

There are bunches of "gospels" and "letters" still extant. Most of them are far later than the Synoptics [Mk, Mt, Lk--Ed.] and Jn have little historical value in the sense of "what happened" but a good deal as to what certain groups believed or wanted to believe.

Q no longer survives--unless someone gets lucky digging a latrine someplace. Some scholars have reconstructed versions from Mt and Lk. A FANTASTIC reference is Throckmorton's, Gospel Parrallels. It places the texts side-by-side which allows you to see how Mt and Lk use Mk--and places where Lk and Mt are word-for-word the same indicating a shared source.

It is similar to Thomas--a "sayings source" which--last I looked--was compiled relatively late.

A lot of these texts are contained in the Nag Hammadi library.

Why some go in and other not? This is a complicated process but basically it consisted of "My TEXTS" against "YOUR texts"--it was not until centuries later that true "canonization" happened.

Goeth ye above and click the references for Friedman. Amazon is offering a great deal with Who Wrote the Bible?--Burton Mack's Who Wrote the New Testament? which gives a good overview of recent understanding of the texts.

Revelation

"666 is not longer alone!
He's getting out the marrow in your back bone!" [No Genesis quotes!--Ed.]

As Pyrrho states, it is a complicated text because of the symbolism. In nearly never made it to the NT! There is a wonderful version done--ala Pocamon--"Apocamon"--check it out on google.

Anyways, "666"--or--"616"--because some textual witnesses give that number--is code for "Nero"--depending on how you spell it. Scholars debate on whether or not it is a direct reference to Nero or to the contemporary Emperor Dominitian.

Best

--J.D.
Mob of the Mean: Free beanie, cattle-prod and Charley Fan Club!
"Doctor X is just treating you the way he treats everyone--as subhuman crap too dumb to breathe in after you breathe out." – Don
DocX: FTW. – sparks
"Doctor X wins again." – Pyrrho
"Never sorry to make a racist Fucktard cry." – His Humble MagNIfIcence
"It was the criticisms of Doc X, actually, that let me see more clearly how far the hypocrisy had gone." – clarsct
"I'd leave it up to Doctor X who has been a benevolent tyrant so far." – Grammatron
"Indeed you are a river to your people.
Shit. That's going to end up in your sig." – Pyrrho
"Try a twelve step program and accept Doctor X as your High Power." – asthmatic camel
"just like Doc X said." – gnome

ImageWS CHAMPIONS X4!!!! ImageNBA CHAMPIONS!! Stanley Cup!Image SB CHAMPIONS X6!!!!!! Image
User avatar
Skeeve
Posts: 12735
Joined: Wed Jun 09, 2004 7:35 am

Post by Skeeve »

Doctor X wrote:Goeth ye above
I Goethe! But Faust, thanks for all of the leads. It will take me some time to read and consider. The devil, after all, is in the details.

Seriously, or as seriously as I can muster when discussing the "book", where can I find some explanation of the symbolism and allegory in Revelation? It still looks like a bad trip to me. Although I don't know the details, I have heard of the Nero = 666 or 616 idea, but I still can't get my head around the 7 heads and 10 horns or something like that, and I almost don't want to understand something like that, too.
Then Skank Of America could start in...
User avatar
Doctor X
Posts: 72897
Joined: Fri Jun 04, 2004 8:09 pm
Title: Collective Messiah
Location: Your Mom

Post by Doctor X »

Mack's book gives a good overview and a recommendation of references for Revelation.

I know of some good web-sites that explain the "666/616" For the rest, there is just too much crack-pot out there--"It is TRUE! John Kerry is the WHORE!! It is fortold!"

--J.D.
Mob of the Mean: Free beanie, cattle-prod and Charley Fan Club!
"Doctor X is just treating you the way he treats everyone--as subhuman crap too dumb to breathe in after you breathe out." – Don
DocX: FTW. – sparks
"Doctor X wins again." – Pyrrho
"Never sorry to make a racist Fucktard cry." – His Humble MagNIfIcence
"It was the criticisms of Doc X, actually, that let me see more clearly how far the hypocrisy had gone." – clarsct
"I'd leave it up to Doctor X who has been a benevolent tyrant so far." – Grammatron
"Indeed you are a river to your people.
Shit. That's going to end up in your sig." – Pyrrho
"Try a twelve step program and accept Doctor X as your High Power." – asthmatic camel
"just like Doc X said." – gnome

ImageWS CHAMPIONS X4!!!! ImageNBA CHAMPIONS!! Stanley Cup!Image SB CHAMPIONS X6!!!!!! Image
User avatar
Skeeve
Posts: 12735
Joined: Wed Jun 09, 2004 7:35 am

Post by Skeeve »

Doctor X wrote:Mack's book gives a good overview and a recommendation of references for Revelation.

I know of some good web-sites that explain the "666/616" For the rest, there is just too much crack-pot out there--"It is TRUE! John Kerry is the WHORE!! It is fortold!"

--J.D.
Again, thank you very much. I will now make Mr. Amazon a bit richer, and then spend some time reading with great interest.
Then Skank Of America could start in...