"Intelligent" design, my foot!

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Beanbag
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"Intelligent" design, my foot!

Post by Beanbag »

Warning: DO NOT READ WHILE EATING, OR IF SQEAMISH.

Ok, you've been warned.

I'm sitting here, 1AM local time, watching a clear, yellow liquid slowly trickling from a set of blisters on my badly sunburned foot (told ya it was gross) , and it suddenly occurred to me that here was the perfect example to refute Intelligent Design. I mean, after all, if perople were designed to exist on this planet, then why did I get so badly damaged just by being outside on an overcast Saturday? I mean, I really wasn't doing anything outrageous, just quietly paddling across the lake in my canoe. If I was designed by an entity, then I'd like to complain to the Design Review Board. I live in a temperate zone, the weather was quite nice and inviting, the sun wasn't even visible. So why did I get scortched just for going out on such a fine day? If I really was intelligently designed, then I shouldn't have to worry about sunscreen. Who left out UV resistance from the design specifications? Inquiring minds want to know.

Regards;
Beanbag
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I'm voting Romney this time around, because I've never settled for the lesser of two evils.
CHARLEY_BIGTIME

Re: "Intelligent" design, my foot!

Post by CHARLEY_BIGTIME »

You need to get out more.
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MRC_Hans
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Post by MRC_Hans »

Perfect sunschreen skin was included in the phase 3 prototypes, but because of some minor quirks in the vitamin D generation process it was scheduled for redesign and was left out in the final phase due to deadline and cost considerations.

We are very sorry for any inconvinience this may have caused you, but can assure you that this feature will be fully functional in the new release, the release date of which is due to be announced within the next six days (days in the mind of God, of course).
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Post by Doctor X »

That is why Infinite Ineffable Wisdom created shoes. . . .

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Abraxas
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Post by Abraxas »

Find the ticket that you came with...the one that says 'Inspector by Station No. 3'...or whatever number.

Then get back to me. I'll have his arse fired!

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Brian the Snail
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Re: "Intelligent" design, my foot!

Post by Brian the Snail »

Beanbag wrote:If I really was intelligently designed, then I shouldn't have to worry about sunscreen. Who left out UV resistance from the design specifications? Inquiring minds want to know.
This was actually included in the original version. However, this particular feature was subsequently removed from the North European market since it was found to be no longer useful. However, some of these units have been subsequently exported to hotter regions. We did not authorise this, and can not be held responsible for the misuse of our product in this manner. In order to comply with the specifications of this product we suggest that you move to somewhere cooler and less sunny, like Finland.

Yours Sincerely,

God PLC.
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Azraphael
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Post by Azraphael »

Just for fun, I'd like to take the other side.

If I understand correctly, you are arguing that getting a sunburn indicates that humans were not, in fact, designed intelligently to live on this planet.

Just to be contrary, I don't think your arguement holds up to scrutiny. The fact that you sunburn isn't a flaw in the primary design of human behings, but rather a combination of flaws that humans have brought upon ourselves.

Take, for example, aboriginal tribes in Africa. They do not suffer sunburning, because the vast majority of their lives are spent outdoors. Their skin has adapted to being in the sun, just as yours has adapted to being indoors. The buildings you spend so much time in are a design of humans.

Furthermore, the depletion of the ozone layer and build up of greenhouse gases has changed our environment. It is easier to sunburn now than it was, say, 200 years ago. Again, because of human actions.

So, in short, your argument does not in any way disprove the idea that some being intelligently designed human beings to live on this planet.

The problem is the creation had a mind of it's own, and has managed to screw up the plan something fierce. :)

Cheers,

~Azraphael
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Andonyx
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Post by Andonyx »

I do tend to agree with Azraphael, although I in no way think there was an intelligence behind our design, I don't believe this particular example is a glaring flaw in our design or even our adaptation.

That's like suggesting that allergies are a screw up. When in fact they are just immuno-responses to stimuli that may not have even been present in their current form when humans first evolved.

On a sidenote that's a sad fact of our existence, because of their relative simplicity, virii and bacteria can evolve and mutate so much faster than our own systems I fear we will never adapt fast enough to stem the tide of an inevitable disaster.
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Post by Skeeve »

Azraphael wrote:The problem is the creation had a mind of it's own, and has managed to screw up the plan something fierce. :)
Goodness, gracious, that rather shoots a hole in the whole idea of omniscience, doesn't it?

Obviously, a beneficent, omniscient entity could have trivially planned for that now, yes? What does it mean that any planning entity didn't, then? I think we have several choices, but none of them are very rewarding in the long run. Either this entity didn't really know what it was doing, or it frankly didn't give a damn.

Don't go ranting on about ineffiablility and all of that, now, and get those two little Michigan boys through that door before noon!
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Azraphael
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Post by Azraphael »

Skeeve wrote:Goodness, gracious, that rather shoots a hole in the whole idea of omniscience, doesn't it?

Obviously, a beneficent, omniscient entity could have trivially planned for that now, yes? What does it mean that any planning entity didn't, then? I think we have several choices, but none of them are very rewarding in the long run. Either this entity didn't really know what it was doing, or it frankly didn't give a damn.

Don't go ranting on about ineffiablility and all of that, now, and get those two little Michigan boys through that door before noon!
First off, clearly I was joking when I referred to 'the plan', but what the hell, let's have a go at this anyway, shall we? :)

First off, we're discussing the idea of intelligent design, not omniscience. We are also not discussing the idea of the kind god that watches over us all the time. This is just about design by a higher intelligence than ours.

Allow me to draw an analogy. Let's say, for example, that you design and build a car. The car works well for about 10,000 miles, and the engine seizes. Clearly that wasn't meant to happen. Does this mean that noone designed the car, because the breakdown wasn't forseen? Does it meant that you didn't give a damn about the car? No. It just means that things do not always go according to plan.

Previously in this thread I referred to intelligence, and I feel that is what we are debating. I think it's altogether too easy to confuse the idea of a creating intelligence with god, but they are certainly not the same thing. A god is some entity that has direct and ongoing involvment with humanity. A designing intelligence could very well be an entity that set things in motion, then moved out of the neighbourhood.

While my personal jury is still out on the matter of whether or there is an intelligent design to the universe, I still think that the original argument (a sunburn) is poor evidence that such an intelligence cannot exist.

~Azraphael
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Skeeve
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Post by Skeeve »

Azraphael wrote:First off, we're discussing the idea of intelligent design, not omniscience.
Ok, that makes all the difference, doesn't it? In the religions that people seem to want to feed me, they all claim that "God Knows All, Sees All", and things like that, so I assumed, incorrectly, that we were talking about one of the gods who is commonly proposed.

If we're proposing a designer who isn't one of those, then I agree, there is no need to argue, because I was thinking about the usual run of god-ideas where the god is omni-everything except actually visible, or confirmable, or in evidence.

Does some religion propose such an imperfect well, imperfect by the standards usually attributed to the gods sort of god? I'm not aware of one, myself.
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Azraphael
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Post by Azraphael »

Skeeve wrote:Does some religion propose such an imperfect well, imperfect by the standards usually attributed to the gods sort of god? I'm not aware of one, myself.
I'm not aware of any major organized religion that does this, no. But, it certainly hasn't happened.

Several pagan religions believe in various deities that are imperfect, but (to my knowledge) none of them are believed to be singly responsible for creation.

Historically, though, the idea of an infalliable god is relatively new. The gods belived in and worshipped by the ancient Greeks, Romans and Egyptians are rarely described as being perfect. In many cases, such as a great deal of Greek mythology, the gods are reported to have many of the same trappings of humanity: errors in udgement, jealously, rage, anger, love, confusion, shortsightedness, etc.

Most major religions that I am aware of that are practiced currently do, in fact, claim that their god is perfect and infalliable. When questioned on it, though, they claim that we cannot understand the will or motivations of such a creature. Therefore, according to them, god is perfect and anything that doesn't make sense is just because we can't understand god.

Somewhat circular logic, in my opinion.

~Azraphael
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Skeeve
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Post by Skeeve »

Azraphael wrote: Therefore, according to them, god is perfect and anything that doesn't make sense is just because we can't understand god.

Somewhat circular logic, in my opinion.

~Azraphael
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Mr.Weasel
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Post by Mr.Weasel »

MRC_Hans wrote:Perfect sunschreen skin was included in the phase 3 prototypes, but because of some minor quirks in the vitamin D generation process it was scheduled for redesign and was left out in the final phase due to deadline and cost considerations.

We are very sorry for any inconvinience this may have caused you, but can assure you that this feature will be fully functional in the new release, the release date of which is due to be announced within the next six days (days in the mind of God, of course).
As we say in Texas, "this is not your first time at the rodeo, is it?"


As for the original issue, do we have a case of design error or user error? You knew you were going to be outside and exposed to UV rays. You excercised your free will in deciding to go shoeless. Furthermore, the instruction manual clearly states that if you run the mustard seed routine in the faith module, you could lay hands on yourself and be healed.
Beanbag
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Re: "Intelligent" design, my foot!

Post by Beanbag »

CHARLEY_BIGTIME wrote:You need to get out more.
I get out plenty. It's just every once in a while, the stupid gene kicks in. I think of it as a random wrench in the system to upset the status quo. Call it a sunscreen mental malfunction.

Regards;
Beanbag
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I'm voting Romney this time around, because I've never settled for the lesser of two evils.
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Post by Pyrrho »

If people were developed by intelligent design, people would be intelligent enough to stay out of the sun if they get sunburned. Therefore, there is no intelligence in either the design or the end product.
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Beanbag
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Post by Beanbag »

Azraphael wrote: While my personal jury is still out on the matter of whether or there is an intelligent design to the universe, I still think that the original argument (a sunburn) is poor evidence that such an intelligence cannot exist.

~Azraphael
Doesn't fit the typical definition of God: omniscient, all-knowing, all-powerful.

And obviously not up to snuff on the impact of UV exposure on living tissue. :D

(Just in case you're wondering: no, this is just idle musings based on a late-night "man, how could I have been such a dumb-ass" session)

Regards;
Beanbag
I fear no gods, because they don't exist, but I fear the fool that truly Believes.

I'm voting Romney this time around, because I've never settled for the lesser of two evils.
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Azraphael
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Post by Azraphael »

Beanbag wrote:Doesn't fit the typical definition of God: omniscient, all-knowing, all-powerful.
I don't deny that... but my understanding was that we were discussing the possibility of an intelligent creator, not god as it is typically defined. I feel that the two are completely separate discussions.

~Azraphael
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Post by thaiboxerken »

Azraphael wrote: I don't deny that... but my understanding was that we were discussing the possibility of an intelligent creator, not god as it is typically defined. I feel that the two are completely separate discussions.

~Azraphael
Actually, not they are not seperate. Intelligent design is just creationism in a different suit and tie. It's the fundie christians' current plot to get their god into education. So, when we say intelligent creator, it's the christian god that is being talked about.

Now, if you want to talk about the possibility of an intelligent creator of a different sort, you can. You won't be talking about "intelligent design" at that point.
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Azraphael
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Post by Azraphael »

thaiboxerken wrote:Actually, not they are not seperate. Intelligent design is just creationism in a different suit and tie. It's the fundie christians' current plot to get their god into education. So, when we say intelligent creator, it's the christian god that is being talked about.

Now, if you want to talk about the possibility of an intelligent creator of a different sort, you can. You won't be talking about "intelligent design" at that point.
I disagree. Perhaps it is one method that Christians are using to get some note about god into education, but the concept of an independant intelligent designer, or prime mover for the universe has been around for far longer than the Christians have been using this particular tactic.

By equating the term 'intelligent design' with the concept of the Judeo-Christian god, you're only showing that you are buying into their propoganda. The term has been subverted by the groups using it for their own Christian purposes, yes.... but nothing says you have to accept that interpretation of the term, or accept their definition of what it means.

If you look at it strictly definitively, the term 'intelligent designer' has no religious leanings one way or the other. It is simply an idea that there was an intelligence that created the universe. If you can't distinguish between that theoretical intelligence and the Judeo-Christian god, then it seems that you're already buying into their hyp, in my opinion.

No offense meant, of course.

~Azraphael
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