Presbyterians to vote on ordaining gays

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Hexxenhammer
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Presbyterians to vote on ordaining gays

Post by Hexxenhammer »

http://www.cnn.com/2004/US/South/06/30/ ... index.html
RICHMOND, Virginia (AP) -- A proposal that would partly lift the Presbyterian church's ban on gay and lesbian ministers has gained support from a legislative committee, and awaits a vote by the church's national legislative assembly.

The measure, approved by the committee Tuesday, will go before the larger body of the Presbyterian Church (U.S.A.) later this week.

If passed, it would allow individual churches to dismiss a 1978 interpretation of church law that prohibits homosexuals from being ordained as ministers, elders or deacons.
This makes me happy. I was raised Presbyterian and I still think that if you're going to belong to a church, might as well belong to a mostly rational one.
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Scot C. Trypal
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Post by Scot C. Trypal »

:clap:
I hope the measure passes, but there is a part of me that wonders just how do they justify homosexual ministers.

We have some good friends who are very active in the Episcopal Church and gay. More Christian folks would be hard to find, but it’s beyond me how they reconcile a book that calls for their murder in both the OT and NT, and is the source for the most sacred beliefs in their life. We’ve found it best to just stay off the topic of religion.
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Hexxenhammer
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Post by Hexxenhammer »

Here's the Presbyterian Church USA's positions on homosexuality (that sounded dirty).

http://www.pcusa.org/101/101-homosexual.htm

You can read the 1978 church law they are voting on overturning.
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poohbear
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Post by poohbear »

I was raised many years ago in the United Church of Canada, a merger of Methodists and Presbyterians many years ago ( before my time), and the subject of ordaining gays came up a few years ago.

It was pointed out to some of the most violently opposed that the question should really be worded "Should we knowingly ordain gays?" because there have been gay ministers for many years in the church working as effectively as any others in the ministry of the church.

As I recall, mainly in news of it from my mother, who remained a member until her death a few years ago at 93, the issue was finally resolved in favor of ordaining gays.
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Doctor X
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Post by Doctor X »

Actually, if you believe the work of some prominent biblical scholars, the Leviticus laws do not forbid homosexuality at all. They forbid a "position."

"Better to give than receive. . . ."

--J.D.
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Blue Monk
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Post by Blue Monk »

I too applaud this move. I am very happy to see a religious organization take a stand. It will be noticed more than any other kind of institution.

I should note, though, that here in Austin there is a large Presbyterian church that has already split from this denomination in anticipation of the event. Too bad. Some people jump at the chance to be on the wrong side of history.

And for the record…

‘Presbyterians to vote on ordaining gays’ is not news.

‘Gays to vote on ordaining Presbyterians,’ now that’s news.
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Scot C. Trypal
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Post by Scot C. Trypal »

I can certainly see your point on Leviticus. I just can’t see how a Christian homosexual gets past Paul. Many of his writings seem central to these churches, but Paul doesn’t only condemn homosexual “activities”, he poses the mere attraction as a sin and a sign of a diabolical person. I just don’t get how you can find inspiration in one mans words on love, for example, when that same man says this:

Romans 1:
For this cause God gave them up unto vile affections: for even their women did change the natural use into that which is against nature: And likewise also the men, leaving the natural use of the woman, burned in their lust one toward another; men with men working that which is unseemly, and receiving in themselves that recompence of their error which was meet. Being filled with all unrighteousness, fornication, wickedness, covetousness, maliciousness; full of envy, murder, debate, deceit, malignity; whisperers, Backbiters, haters of God, despiteful, proud, boasters, inventors of evil things, disobedient to parents, Without understanding, covenantbreakers, without natural affection, implacable, unmerciful: Who knowing the judgment of God, that they which commit such things are worthy of death, not only do the same, but have pleasure in them that do them.
I always obeyed my parents :).

Maybe Christian homosexuals look at him as a preacher, as fallible as any preacher today, with biases of his own that make it into his writings? I don’t know.
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Post by Loon »

Well, Paul isn't Christ. I mean, as important as he is in the spread of the religion, it was Jesus who said all the bits about love and being the gateway to the kindom of god and all of that.
I guess there he chose to err on the side of more votes. -[size=75]Grammatron[/size]
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Post by Doctor X »

I must confess I find Paul much the asshole. I could never take his writings seriously--though Galatians--his Mein Kampf--is hilarious.

--J.D.
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Post by Abdul Alhazred »

I can't really get worked up over this one way or the other. Didn't the more conservative Presbyterians separate a while back over other issues?

And so the luh-luh-luh-liberals like gays?

Though gay myself, I'm unimpressed.

Fuck religion, including liberal religion.

Especially liberal religion. At least the other kind has the virtue of sincerity.
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Doctor X
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Post by Doctor X »

It is a shame, but a poster whom I will resist "discussing in terms a triffle on the harsh side of 'strict'" posted a "What the Pope thinks" only to degenerate in to his personal prejudices. The issue of homosexual marriage, religion, and all of that is an interesting one.

Despite claims of "sacred institution since the dawn of Creation"--10,000 years ago [Stop that.--Ed.]--marriage was a political/civil matter until relatively recently.

For legal reasons everyone should have a civil license.

If a religion wishes to marry gays, straights, "not sure, but what the hell?" that is the religion's business.

The REAL issue is that those who have what I have heard various commentators refer to as "the Ick Factor" DO NOT want any suggestion of legitimization or acceptance of something they do not like.

"God" is in the Pledge because it implies the existence of a god, and the acknowledgement of a god is "normal." "Civil Union" and even--Heavens to Betsy!--marriage of homosexuals implies acceptability.

Prior, "gays are abnormal!"--"See! They cannot even get married." Allow them to be married or "civily united" implies they are--Directs Seed to fetch smelling salts--"normal."

All terribly hypocritical, of course.

To remain consistent, I suppose I should allow religions to continue their arcane and, frankly, stupid if not dangerous practice of celibacy/non-marriage/no gays because it is their right to be stupid.

--J.D.
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"Never sorry to make a racist Fucktard cry." – His Humble MagNIfIcence
"It was the criticisms of Doc X, actually, that let me see more clearly how far the hypocrisy had gone." – clarsct
"I'd leave it up to Doctor X who has been a benevolent tyrant so far." – Grammatron
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Hexxenhammer
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Post by Hexxenhammer »

Abdul Alhazred wrote:I can't really get worked up over this one way or the other. Didn't the more conservative Presbyterians separate a while back over other issues?

And so the luh-luh-luh-liberals like gays?

Though gay myself, I'm unimpressed.

Fuck religion, including liberal religion.

Especially liberal religion. At least the other kind has the virtue of sincerity.
Oh, Abdully. You're such a nut. I love ya.

The biggest split I ever saw in the presbyterian church was when our church got its first female pastor. Suddenly, half the congregation was Methodist.
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Scot C. Trypal
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Post by Scot C. Trypal »

Well, gay Presbyterians better drop those dreams of being ministers.

http://www.onnnews.com/Global/story.asp ... v=LQlCOQuO

The measure failed to pass by 259-to-255.
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Hexxenhammer
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Post by Hexxenhammer »

Scot C. Trypal wrote:Well, if you are a gay Presbyterian, better drop those dreams of being a minister.

http://www.onnnews.com/Global/story.asp ... v=LQlCOQuO

The measure failed to pass by 259-to-255.
Too bad. I guess mom won't be joining the church elders again anytime soon. This is the issue that made her quit.
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Scot C. Trypal
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Post by Scot C. Trypal »

Hexxenhammer wrote:
Scot C. Trypal wrote:Well, if you are a gay Presbyterian, better drop those dreams of being a minister.

http://www.onnnews.com/Global/story.asp ... v=LQlCOQuO

The measure failed to pass by 259-to-255.
Too bad. I guess mom won't be joining the church elders again anytime soon. This is the issue that made her quit.
Hey! You caught me in the mere seconds of an edit.

I thought the 1st version sounded as though I thought you,Hexxenhammer, may be a gay Presbyterian. I’ve been lurking long enough to know otherwise :).

Good for your mom!
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Scot C. Trypal
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Post by Scot C. Trypal »

Abdul Alhazred wrote:I can't really get worked up over this one way or the other. Didn't the more conservative Presbyterians separate a while back over other issues?

And so the luh-luh-luh-liberals like gays?

Though gay myself, I'm unimpressed.

Fuck religion, including liberal religion.

Especially liberal religion. At least the other kind has the virtue of sincerity.
I’ve felt similarly on the issue of liberal churches, but didn’t expect others would.

There is a part of me that has more respect for the Baptist minister who won’t compromise on the clearly anti-homosexual portions of the Bible, than the lesbian minister who interprets the Bible into a Gay Pride flyer. Lately though, it’s become a much more fuzzy question for me.

I do feel this “be a man, be consistent, and take the good with the bad” thing. It does bug me that they aren’t true, even to what I consider untrue.

But then I think of the wonderful gay Christians I know; maybe they don’t have to take the whole Bible as infallible and set (as I once did). As Loon said, Paul isn't Christ. There are also those who will have to grow up in these religions. I mean, to hell with the minister’s scriptural integrity if it keeps a kid from suicide.

In the end, I, rightly or wrongly, still don’t have much respect for the religious reasoning of liberal Christian churches, but I do now have a great respect for their motivation.
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Post by Doctor X »

It is all much easier if one accepts that men, with their vices, prejudices, and virtues, wrote the texts.

--J.D.
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"Doctor X is just treating you the way he treats everyone--as subhuman crap too dumb to breathe in after you breathe out." – Don
DocX: FTW. – sparks
"Doctor X wins again." – Pyrrho
"Never sorry to make a racist Fucktard cry." – His Humble MagNIfIcence
"It was the criticisms of Doc X, actually, that let me see more clearly how far the hypocrisy had gone." – clarsct
"I'd leave it up to Doctor X who has been a benevolent tyrant so far." – Grammatron
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Shit. That's going to end up in your sig." – Pyrrho
"Try a twelve step program and accept Doctor X as your High Power." – asthmatic camel
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Scot C. Trypal
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Post by Scot C. Trypal »

Doctor X wrote:It is all much easier if one accepts that men, with their vices, prejudices, and virtues, wrote the texts.

--J.D.
I'm sure. Oddly, it’s the fundamentalist Christian left in me that has a problem with such a liberal take on the Bible :).
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Abdul Alhazred
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Post by Abdul Alhazred »

Scot C. Trypal wrote:Well, gay Presbyterians better drop those dreams of being ministers.

http://www.onnnews.com/Global/story.asp ... v=LQlCOQuO

The measure failed to pass by 259-to-255.
Ho hum.

Being a Presbyterian minister was always about all the free pussy. Nothing in it for a gay guy. :roll:
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Abdul Alhazred
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Post by Abdul Alhazred »

Scot C. Trypal wrote: I’ve felt similarly on the issue of liberal churches, but didn’t expect others would.

There is a part of me that has more respect for the Baptist minister who won’t compromise on the clearly anti-homosexual portions of the Bible, than the lesbian minister who interprets the Bible into a Gay Pride flyer.
The answer is clear.

Enjoy the Bible as ancient literature as you might the Iliad, Odyssey, and Aeneid.

Enjoy the King James Bible as English literature as you might the works of Shakespear.

But don't try to make it "modern" or try to steal its prestige to prove you're a good person when it clearly says you are not.

Absolutely jettison religion!
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The arc of the moral universe bends towards chaos.
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