Top home-school texts dismiss Darwin, evolution

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Post by Mentat »

gnome wrote:
hammegk wrote:
gnome wrote:Hammy:

Do you actually think that accepting Evolution = atheism?
Without the stated proviso that it doesn't, yes.
What the heck does that mean?
Translation: "If it isn't, then it is."
It's "pea-can", man.

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Post by gnome »

I challenge Hammegk to refute that his statement is objectively false. There are MANY theists who accept evolution. Jews and Catholics do, for the most part. So how is that in any way a correct statement?
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Post by Abdul Alhazred »

Abdul Alhazred wrote:
hammegk wrote:Did you read the link?

I haven't ruined the DC school system. It took Brown v Board and 50 years of neglect to do that.
Do the 50 years of neglect somehow logically follow from de-segregation?

And if so, how?

Hint: New York City public schools were not racially segregated and were generally considered excellent. The 50 years of neglect are the same.
C'mon hammy I don't want this one to get lost in the shuffle of all the other disputes.

You are making a very specific post hoc ergo propter hoc assertion about the Brown decision.

Please note, I do not disagree that there was 50 years of neglect (or whatever you want to call it) since then.

How about it?
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Post by hammegk »

gnome wrote:
hammegk wrote:
gnome wrote:Hammy:

Do you actually think that accepting Evolution = atheism?
Without the stated proviso that it doesn't, yes.
What the heck does that mean?
That you don't understand English?
The most important things in life–beauty, grace, redemption, compassion, loyalty, love–are beyond the reach of reason. Which doesn’t make them any less real. Stay far back: I'm allergic to Stupid.

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Philanthropist (n.) - Someone who spends his own money to advance his version of Utopia. Socialist (n.) - Someone who spends your money to advance his version of Utopia.

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Post by Abdul Alhazred »

Hammy has a point about evolution and atheism.

The number one argument for the existence of God was knocked out of the box by the theory of evolution.

True enough, the theory of evolution does not in any way explicitly preclude the existence of "some sort" of God, only the God believers contemporary with Darwin actually believed in when Darwin published.

In the context of western Christian thought, evolution with God in it is a rear-guard action by institutional religionists.
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Post by gnome »

hammegk wrote:
gnome wrote:
hammegk wrote:
gnome wrote:Hammy:

Do you actually think that accepting Evolution = atheism?
Without the stated proviso that it doesn't, yes.
What the heck does that mean?
That you don't understand English?
Or that you fail at speaking it with clarity.
"If fighting is sure to result in victory, then you must fight! Sun Tzu said that, and I'd say he knows a little bit more about fighting than you do, pal, because he invented it, and then he perfected it so that no living man could best him in the ring of honor. Then, he used his fight money to buy two of every animal on earth, and then he herded them onto a boat, and then he beat the crap out of every single one. And from that day forward any time a bunch of animals are together in one place it's called a zoo! (Beat) Unless it's a farm!"
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Post by DrMatt »

Abdul Alhazred wrote:In the context of western Christian thought, evolution with God in it is a rear-guard action by institutional religionists.
Yeah, we heard it all before, about Catholics being No True Christians, and only evolution-denying Christians being True Theists. Nice try, Humpty-Dumpties.
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Post by Abdul Alhazred »

FAIL DrMatt.

Christianity when it compromises with modernity merely equates to "niceness". You don't need Jesus for that.

Likewise, anti-slavery Christians were using their own ideas about slavery being contrary to "Christian" love rather than following what is clearly written in the New Testament.

etc.
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Post by DrMatt »

Abdul Alhazred wrote:FAIL DrMatt.

Christianity when it compromises with modernity merely equates to "niceness". You don't need Jesus for that.

Likewise, anti-slavery Christians were using their own ideas about slavery being contrary to "Christian" love rather than following what is clearly written in the New Testament.

etc.
Another No True Scottsman FAIL, AA.
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Post by specious_reasons »

Abdul Alhazred wrote: Christianity when it compromises with modernity merely equates to "niceness". You don't need Jesus for that.
I disagree - it compromises with modernity to ensure its survival. Ironically, the Catholic church is probably struggling because it picked the wrong subjects to adapt to - evolution rather than reproduction.

(Reproduction in terms of pastors being allowed to marry, and a limited amount of family planning - in the context of marriage.)
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Post by Abdul Alhazred »

DrMatt wrote:Another No True Scottsman FAIL, AA.
So sorry DrMatt.

Christianity with evolution in it is as intellectually dishonest as creationist apologetics.

Whereas belief in divine creation before Darwin required no dishonesty.

This evolution thing, if it really catches on, will be the death of Christianity. I hope I hope I hope.
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Post by Abdul Alhazred »

specious_reasons wrote:... it compromises with modernity to ensure its survival.
Yes that is why, in terms of motivation.

But it doesn't seem to be having that effect.
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Post by DrMatt »

Abdul Alhazred wrote:
DrMatt wrote:Another No True Scottsman FAIL, AA.
So sorry DrMatt.

Christianity with evolution in it is as intellectually dishonest as creationist apologetics.

Whereas belief in divine creation before Darwin required no dishonesty.


Irrelevant. Doublethink has never slowed theism.
This evolution thing, if it really catches on, will be the death of Christianity. I hope I hope I hope.
Hasn't happened yet. No evidence for it happening. Apathy towards the establishment has been the main force for the waning of Christianity, but a wider variety of theisms has emerged. Meanwhile, the evolution-begets-atheism formula hasn't been working out. Theism readily evolves around such minor changes in the intellectual environment.
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Post by Abdul Alhazred »

Doublethink has never slowed theism.
Doublethink was not necessary on this issue before Darwin. The necessity for doublethink certainly deters many people.
Apathy towards the establishment has been the main force for the waning of Christianity
This much is true, but it hasn't happened in a vacuum.

It happened in the context of there not being any particular logical reason to believe any more, other reasons perhaps remaining untouched.

It may be that evolution will lose, and some religion or other picks up the pieces of civilization.
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Post by Abdul Alhazred »

BTW, Hammy, I'm still waiting for an answer of the Brown decision question.
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Post by DrMatt »

Abdul Alhazred wrote:
Doublethink has never slowed theism.
Doublethink was not necessary on this issue before Darwin. The necessity for doublethink certainly deters many people.
The all-powerful all-merciful bit has been noted at least since Epicurus. Doublethink and theism have gone hand in hand long before Darwin. This issue is a pawn in a much larger world.
Apathy towards the establishment has been the main force for the waning of Christianity
This much is true, but it hasn't happened in a vacuum.

It happened in the context of there not being any particular logical reason to believe any more, other reasons perhaps remaining untouched.
See "Epicurus" again.
It may be that evolution will lose, and some religion or other picks up the pieces of civilization.
Or that evolution will be incorporated into theism the same way astronomy has been, though Kopernikus's revolution required a total redefinition of "heaven" and other related concepts.
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Post by Abdul Alhazred »

DrMatt wrote:Or that evolution will be incorporated into theism the same way astronomy has been, though Kopernikus's revolution required a total redefinition of "heaven" and other related concepts.
"Theism" maybe, but not Christianity.

There is the matter of original sin. Unlike Copernican astronomy, evolution precludes a core doctrine.

We are back to Chirstianity == niceness.
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Post by DrMatt »

Abdul Alhazred wrote:
DrMatt wrote:Or that evolution will be incorporated into theism the same way astronomy has been, though Kopernikus's revolution required a total redefinition of "heaven" and other related concepts.
"Theism" maybe, but not Christianity.

There is the matter of original sin. Unlike Copernican astronomy, evolution precludes a core doctrine.

We are back to Chirstianity == niceness.
The matter of original sin is still embraced by the Catholics, the same folks who teach evolution in their parochial schools. Evolution hasn't made any significant inroads into Christianity. Communication techologies, have made inroads into parochialism. And religions self-defining as "we're the nice people, everybody else is nasty" has been going on since before Epicurus too.
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Post by hammegk »

Abdul Alhazred wrote: In the context of western Christian thought, evolution with God in it is a rear-guard action by institutional religionists.
Of course intelligent theists have no problem with OEC and evolution.

The apparent teleology in all evolution, from universe-to-now cosmologically, or from first life to man, is there for all to see, whether explained as random or ordained. And abiogenesis remains unanswered by any science to date.

For schoolkids, make this plain, or don't teach it. Yeah, I know the courts have decided those provisos are a no-no. Hence the demand for private schools or home-schooling.
The most important things in life–beauty, grace, redemption, compassion, loyalty, love–are beyond the reach of reason. Which doesn’t make them any less real. Stay far back: I'm allergic to Stupid.

The simple rule, the greatest plan, that he should keep who has the power, and he should take who can.

The only enemies of guns: rust ... and politicians.

Philanthropist (n.) - Someone who spends his own money to advance his version of Utopia. Socialist (n.) - Someone who spends your money to advance his version of Utopia.

“Jesus loves the little cheeses, all the cheeses of the world. Swiss and Cheddar, stinky, too. If He loved them, so should you. Jesus loves the little cheeses of the world.”

I'm right 98% of the time; who cares about the other 3%?

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Post by hammegk »

gnome wrote:
hammegk wrote:
gnome wrote:
hammegk wrote:
gnome wrote:Hammy:

Do you actually think that accepting Evolution = atheism?
Without the stated proviso that it doesn't, yes.
What the heck does that mean?
That you don't understand English?
Or that you fail at speaking it with clarity.
And life is a bitch, then you die. So what?
The most important things in life–beauty, grace, redemption, compassion, loyalty, love–are beyond the reach of reason. Which doesn’t make them any less real. Stay far back: I'm allergic to Stupid.

The simple rule, the greatest plan, that he should keep who has the power, and he should take who can.

The only enemies of guns: rust ... and politicians.

Philanthropist (n.) - Someone who spends his own money to advance his version of Utopia. Socialist (n.) - Someone who spends your money to advance his version of Utopia.

“Jesus loves the little cheeses, all the cheeses of the world. Swiss and Cheddar, stinky, too. If He loved them, so should you. Jesus loves the little cheeses of the world.”

I'm right 98% of the time; who cares about the other 3%?