Some bad but not unexpected news

How can we expose more people to critical thinking?
User avatar
sparks
Posts: 16458
Joined: Fri Oct 26, 2007 4:13 pm
Location: Friar McWallclocks Bar -- Where time stands still while you lean over!

Some bad but not unexpected news

Post by sparks »

Just saw a sound bite on TV: The latest numbers are out, US of A high school kids rank 25th in Math and 17th in Science behind the rest of the world.

Fuck.
You can lead them to knowledge, but you can't make them think.

En folkefiende
Posts: 17511
Joined: Thu Aug 12, 2004 4:38 am
Location: Waiting for an electrician

Re: Some bad but not unexpected news

Post by En folkefiende »

Certainly not unexpected.

But tragic. Good job, both "sides". :(
Formerly jj, the enemy of the people, aka the bullies who rant and lie here.

User avatar
DrMatt
BANNED
Posts: 29811
Joined: Fri Jul 16, 2004 4:00 pm
Location: Location: Location!

Re: Some bad but not unexpected news

Post by DrMatt »

What works?
Good teachers work.
Why don't we have good teachers?
Because the union, having fought for tenure, has no incentive to clean up its ranks.
Why is the union involved?
Because back in the era of good teachers, districts treated teachers like dirt.

Unintended consequences.
The union is ripe to either clean up its ranks and become a profession like the Bar, the AMA, etc., or get busted and booted.
But getting either of these processes started will take a grass roots campaign because lazy-ass non-teachers in the union have both parties by the balls.

That, in a nutshell, without the heart-tugging and infuriating footage, is "Waiting for Superman."
Grayman wrote:If masturbation led to homosexuality you'd think by now I'd at least have better fashion sense.

User avatar
hammegk
Posts: 15134
Joined: Sun Jun 06, 2004 1:16 pm
Title: Curmudgeon
Location: Hither, sometimes Yon

Re: Some bad but not unexpected news

Post by hammegk »

Dear DrMatt: what a crock of pc crap. Students who are unable or unwilling to learn are increasing. So what?

Don't worry.

The up-and-comers who will effect the world positively are doing just fine in math and science in US schools.

The useless dregs will always be just that.

User avatar
DrMatt
BANNED
Posts: 29811
Joined: Fri Jul 16, 2004 4:00 pm
Location: Location: Location!

Re: Some bad but not unexpected news

Post by DrMatt »

The curve is still made by the vast middle. Good teachers make a huge difference to the vast middle. PC? When was union-busting PC?
Grayman wrote:If masturbation led to homosexuality you'd think by now I'd at least have better fashion sense.

User avatar
Abdul Alhazred
Posts: 82723
Joined: Mon Jun 07, 2004 1:33 pm
Title: Yes, that one.
Location: Chicago

Re: Some bad but not unexpected news

Post by Abdul Alhazred »

Since when is being anti-union PC?
Image "If I turn in a sicko, will I get a reward?"

"Yes! A BIG REWARD!" ====> Click here to turn in a sicko
The arc of the moral universe bends towards chaos.
People who believe God or History are on their side provide the chaos.

User avatar
hammegk
Posts: 15134
Joined: Sun Jun 06, 2004 1:16 pm
Title: Curmudgeon
Location: Hither, sometimes Yon

Re: Some bad but not unexpected news

Post by hammegk »

The pc part is pretending that bad teachers, rather than unteachable, and cannot be disciplined by the teacher or school-system, children are to blame.

And the union is the best protection teachers have from parent and/or student accusations of mis-conduct.

User avatar
Abdul Alhazred
Posts: 82723
Joined: Mon Jun 07, 2004 1:33 pm
Title: Yes, that one.
Location: Chicago

Re: Some bad but not unexpected news

Post by Abdul Alhazred »

I disagree that the poor showing is 100% due to unteachableness.

How would the level of unteachableness increase so much over a single generation?
Image "If I turn in a sicko, will I get a reward?"

"Yes! A BIG REWARD!" ====> Click here to turn in a sicko
The arc of the moral universe bends towards chaos.
People who believe God or History are on their side provide the chaos.

User avatar
asthmatic camel
Posts: 19309
Joined: Sat Jun 05, 2004 1:53 pm
Title: Forum commie nun.
Location: Stirring the porridge with my spurtle.

Re: Some bad but not unexpected news

Post by asthmatic camel »

hammegk wrote:The pc part is pretending that bad teachers, rather than unteachable, and cannot be disciplined by the teacher or school-system, children are to blame.

And the union is the best protection teachers have from parent and/or student accusations of mis-conduct.
Am I alone in finding this comment incomprehensible?

:?
Last edited by asthmatic camel on Tue Dec 07, 2010 7:03 pm, edited 1 time in total.
Shit happens. The older you get, the more often shit happens. So you have to try not to give a shit even when you do. Because, if you give too many shits, you've created your own shit creek and there's no way out other than swimming through the shit. Oh, and fuck.

User avatar
Abdul Alhazred
Posts: 82723
Joined: Mon Jun 07, 2004 1:33 pm
Title: Yes, that one.
Location: Chicago

Re: Some bad but not unexpected news

Post by Abdul Alhazred »

asthmatic camel wrote:Am I alone in finding that comment incomprehensible?

:?
I think he's right up to a point. The union can protect their members from frivolous or malicious complaints. That's as true for teachers as for anyone.
Image "If I turn in a sicko, will I get a reward?"

"Yes! A BIG REWARD!" ====> Click here to turn in a sicko
The arc of the moral universe bends towards chaos.
People who believe God or History are on their side provide the chaos.

User avatar
asthmatic camel
Posts: 19309
Joined: Sat Jun 05, 2004 1:53 pm
Title: Forum commie nun.
Location: Stirring the porridge with my spurtle.

Re: Some bad but not unexpected news

Post by asthmatic camel »

Read it again.
Shit happens. The older you get, the more often shit happens. So you have to try not to give a shit even when you do. Because, if you give too many shits, you've created your own shit creek and there's no way out other than swimming through the shit. Oh, and fuck.

En folkefiende
Posts: 17511
Joined: Thu Aug 12, 2004 4:38 am
Location: Waiting for an electrician

Re: Some bad but not unexpected news

Post by En folkefiende »

hammegk wrote:The pc part is pretending that bad teachers, rather than unteachable, and cannot be disciplined by the teacher or school-system, children are to blame.

And the union is the best protection teachers have from parent and/or student accusations of mis-conduct.
So, the person teaching math that said "you can't add equations" said that because her students are unteachable?
Formerly jj, the enemy of the people, aka the bullies who rant and lie here.

User avatar
hammegk
Posts: 15134
Joined: Sun Jun 06, 2004 1:16 pm
Title: Curmudgeon
Location: Hither, sometimes Yon

Re: Some bad but not unexpected news

Post by hammegk »

Got some context to better display what you think you're talking about?

En folkefiende
Posts: 17511
Joined: Thu Aug 12, 2004 4:38 am
Location: Waiting for an electrician

Re: Some bad but not unexpected news

Post by En folkefiende »

hammegk wrote:Got some context to better display what you think you're talking about?
I taught my offspring how to do Gaussian Elimination for 2 (linear) equations in 2 unknowns.

It was marked "wrong", not because "I want you to practice manipulation" (which would be a reasonable answer as long as it was known in advance), but because "you can't add equations together".

The start of the phone conference involved the teacher explaining to me "we teach much more complicated math than you probably ever heard of, Mr. ...".

My reply "So Frederick Gauss was wring?" got the reply 'I never heard of that person".

Fortunately the situation was resolved...

I've discussed this here before. Having retention problems?
Formerly jj, the enemy of the people, aka the bullies who rant and lie here.

User avatar
hammegk
Posts: 15134
Joined: Sun Jun 06, 2004 1:16 pm
Title: Curmudgeon
Location: Hither, sometimes Yon

Re: Some bad but not unexpected news

Post by hammegk »

jj wrote:
hammegk wrote:Got some context to better display what you think you're talking about?
I taught my offspring how to do Gaussian Elimination for 2 (linear) equations in 2 unknowns.

It was marked "wrong", not because "I want you to practice manipulation" (which would be a reasonable answer as long as it was known in advance), but because "you can't add equations together".

The start of the phone conference involved the teacher explaining to me "we teach much more complicated math than you probably ever heard of, Mr. ...".

My reply "So Frederick Gauss was wring?" got the reply 'I never heard of that person".

Fortunately the situation was resolved...

I've discussed this here before. Having retention problems?
Regarding your usual utter crap, no interest.

Home school your brats and stfu.

User avatar
specious_reasons
Posts: 6694
Joined: Mon Jun 07, 2004 7:58 pm

Re: Some bad but not unexpected news

Post by specious_reasons »

jj wrote: It was marked "wrong", not because "I want you to practice manipulation" (which would be a reasonable answer as long as it was known in advance), but because "you can't add equations together".

The start of the phone conference involved the teacher explaining to me "we teach much more complicated math than you probably ever heard of, Mr. ...".

My reply "So Frederick Gauss was wring?" got the reply 'I never heard of that person".

Fortunately the situation was resolved...
I would think that the highlighted text is a poor assumption on your teacher's part, given your general area. My step-siblings went to Issaquah schools, where the population was 1/2 redneck and 1/2 high-tech employees - mostly Microsoft. Any teacher like that would be
just about guaranteed to be 50%+ wrong.
ta-
DAVE!!!

User avatar
sparks
Posts: 16458
Joined: Fri Oct 26, 2007 4:13 pm
Location: Friar McWallclocks Bar -- Where time stands still while you lean over!

Re: Some bad but not unexpected news

Post by sparks »

A discussion revolving around where to affix blame for the current piss poor situation, while fun, is hardly the point. Why don't we simply do what the most successful countries are doing? And if that means a bottom-up overhaul of our system here in the U. S. then so be it. The penalty of doing nothing is pretty obvious: We continue to back slide until, by comparison with us, a country like Haiti seems to be positively running over with genius level kids. Let's not forget all the collateral shit that will hit the fan as we get dumber and dumber here in The States.

Pick one or two systems that work and co-opt the motherfuckers!
You can lead them to knowledge, but you can't make them think.

En folkefiende
Posts: 17511
Joined: Thu Aug 12, 2004 4:38 am
Location: Waiting for an electrician

Re: Some bad but not unexpected news

Post by En folkefiende »

hammegk wrote:Regarding your usual utter crap, no interest.

Home school your brats and stfu.
Hmm. Cite your evidence that:

1) My offspring are "brats"
2) You'll pay me equivalent salary while I play (now) college prof. And, now, not just a prof. salary.

Evidences, Carlos, err, Hammy?

Or did you just make the first part up?

I admit to giggling when my offspring and one of her friends came back for a visit, and were discussing what a (*&(*& Hardy was. And that's not "Hardy Boys", of course.
Last edited by En folkefiende on Tue Dec 07, 2010 10:47 pm, edited 1 time in total.
Formerly jj, the enemy of the people, aka the bullies who rant and lie here.

En folkefiende
Posts: 17511
Joined: Thu Aug 12, 2004 4:38 am
Location: Waiting for an electrician

Re: Some bad but not unexpected news

Post by En folkefiende »

specious_reasons wrote:I would think that the highlighted text is a poor assumption on your teacher's part, given your general area.
Given I do signal processing (among other things) for a living, y'think? My spouse was kicking me under the table, I was punning on things like "Eigen see we aren't going to agree", which of course didn't even sink in.

But the problem was resolved. Seems the principal knew what I did for a living... :)
Formerly jj, the enemy of the people, aka the bullies who rant and lie here.

User avatar
DrMatt
BANNED
Posts: 29811
Joined: Fri Jul 16, 2004 4:00 pm
Location: Location: Location!

Re: Some bad but not unexpected news

Post by DrMatt »

[youtube]doegAJdoid4[/youtube]
Source for elementary school students who are poised to overtake us.
Skeptica and I have both spoken about going there someday, but who knows...
Grayman wrote:If masturbation led to homosexuality you'd think by now I'd at least have better fashion sense.