bunch of dummies :(

How can we expose more people to critical thinking?
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Generalisimo
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Re: bunch of dummies :(

Post by Generalisimo »

scarlet_35 wrote:The scores reveal a continuing achievement gap between white students and black and Latino students.

White students passed the test at a rate of 60.4 percent, well ahead of Latinos at 35.8 percent and blacks at 29.3 percent.
That is a pretty stark difference in passing rate! On one hand, you don't want to lower the standard, but on the other, you're wondering why you can't get minority students to do a little better on the exams.

This is a tough problem, and it's an important problem, because those kids will likely drop out of high school in 10 years and perpetuate the lifestyle they were probably born in to.

Why are latinos and blacks testing so poorly? Are they in crappy schools? Come from crappy homes? Don't put forth the effort? Have they already been written off by a school system more concerned with numbers than achievement?

:?
[size=75][i]"It's rude to talk about religion, you never know who you're gonna offend."[/i][/size]

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Andonyx
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Re: bunch of dummies :(

Post by Andonyx »

scarlet_35 wrote:

sounds like a plan to me, lets test then at a lower level, wouldn't want to hurt their self-esteem and all :roll: ok so they won't be able to get a job because they CAN'T read but hey at least they'll believe they're able to read well enough because they passed school. What are people thinking???
Okay I don't know where you're going with this because A, you didn't provide a link, and B, who is suggesting lowering the scores? Nobody in that story certainly.

Or are you inventing something to get upset about because you like sarcasm?
I have a strict no smiley policy. If you are trying to decide wether or not to be offended or amused by something I said, save yourself some frustration and go for the latter.

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Grammatron
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Re: bunch of dummies :(

Post by Grammatron »

Generalisimo wrote:
scarlet_35 wrote:The scores reveal a continuing achievement gap between white students and black and Latino students.

White students passed the test at a rate of 60.4 percent, well ahead of Latinos at 35.8 percent and blacks at 29.3 percent.
That is a pretty stark difference in passing rate! On one hand, you don't want to lower the standard, but on the other, you're wondering why you can't get minority students to do a little better on the exams.

This is a tough problem, and it's an important problem, because those kids will likely drop out of high school in 10 years and perpetuate the lifestyle they were probably born in to.

Why are latinos and blacks testing so poorly? Are they in crappy schools? Come from crappy homes? Don't put forth the effort? Have they already been written off by a school system more concerned with numbers than achievement?

:?
I would say crappy homes and to a lesser extent crappy schools.

Loon
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Re: bunch of dummies :(

Post by Loon »

scarlet_35 wrote:sounds like a plan to me, lets test then at a lower level, wouldn't want to hurt their self-esteem and all :roll: ok so they won't be able to get a job because they CAN'T read but hey at least they'll believe they're able to read well enough because they passed school. What are people thinking???
Looks to me like they are worried that the tests are too *easy.*
I guess there he chose to err on the side of more votes. -[size=75]Grammatron[/size]

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Andonyx
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Re: bunch of dummies :(

Post by Andonyx »

scarlet_35 wrote:
Andonyx wrote:
scarlet_35 wrote:

sounds like a plan to me, lets test then at a lower level, wouldn't want to hurt their self-esteem and all :roll: ok so they won't be able to get a job because they CAN'T read but hey at least they'll believe they're able to read well enough because they passed school. What are people thinking???
Okay I don't know where you're going with this because A, you didn't provide a link, and B, who is suggesting lowering the scores? Nobody in that story certainly.

Or are you inventing something to get upset about because you like sarcasm?
I didn't provide the link because you'd have to register to ohio.com to read it if I had, so I just copied the article.

I didn't say they suggested it be lowered, but it was mentioned that the tests are too easy.

I'm not looking to get upset, it frustrates me. my daughter in fact has a kid in her class that can't read very well and she's in 7th grade. why is this happening? Is it because the 3rd grade reading test is too easy? Is there more that can be done?

I do think the school system out here is just looking for numbers, they'll pass a kid just to show that they had so many kids pass each year, even if that child didn't learn what they were supposed to learn. It almost seems like its harder to fail then it is to pass and thats just sad :(
Okay, I hope you can see how I was confused though. You made a statement based on your personal experience that required the assumption of motivations apparently opposite to those mentioned in the article. Not an easy leap of logic for the uninitiated such as myself to follow.

In the meantime have you looked at this test? Is there any way to make a comparison to a larger population's scores on it?

The only reason I ask is that one older child not being able to read is not necessarily reason enough to condemn the scoring system.

But your concerns are legitemite, perhaps am education board meeting would be receptive to the input from a parent, since some of them already seem to think the test may not be challenging enough.
I have a strict no smiley policy. If you are trying to decide wether or not to be offended or amused by something I said, save yourself some frustration and go for the latter.

Larry Barrieau
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Post by Larry Barrieau »

Scarlet, my guess is that this is a relatively new test (4-5 yrs old) as is ours here in Mass. So you won't be able to compare what was happening 20 years ago with today. Also you won't be able to compare state to state because each state has a different test.

If a student in Mass. can't pass the test with multiple attempts as you've stated, they should not graduate. The test should be quite easy to pass the first time.

We have very few Latinos or blacks here in this district. But we do have our fair share of failures. So I assume the reason for failure is the same. THE PARENTS. Usually parents of lower socio-economic groups don't invest in their childrens education to the extent that the higher (more educated) groups do. I see it at this local level and it makes sense that it is true in the broader outlook.

During my recent Parent/Teacher conferences for the 7th grade, this was obvious as it has been for the 21 years I've been here.

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Denise
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Post by Denise »

I don't think one can just blame the parents. The schools have these kids for 6 or more hours 5 days a week. They should be able to teach the children the basics at least. Part of the problem might be that the schools are trying to teach too many things instead of focusing on reading, writing, and arithmetic.

And let's not forget that the schools get more money from the government for children that require special education. Now, I have no proof at all of this, but I would like to pose a question. How might a district that is unable to make ends meet be able to get as much federal money as possible? And, although personal anecdotes do not amount to much on this board, I have noticed some things as a mother of a child who just started middle school. Her friends who are in special education for reading never got out. The goal of special education is supposed to be educating the child so that they are able to read at grade level. Once these children were put in special ed, they remained there year after year.

I was told that these children who needed special help had every friday off from their regular schedule to play games etc. On the other hand, the children in the higher classes took very little time out for pure pleasure.

The parents are also responsible, of course, but I don't think the schools should be left off the hook. The problem is that many of the parents of kids who are unable to read, were in the same school system as their children. Generational illiteracy. Until this problem is fixed the cycle will continue.

Brenda
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Post by Brenda »

Once these children were put in special ed, they remained there year after year
That is an interesting observation and not the first time I have heard it. One of my friends had to go to the school board to get her child into main stream classes. She did and the child is doing fine. If she hadnt been the mother she was, that child would have continued to meet the lowest commen denominator and never have become all she is today. Very sad to play with their lives in that way isnt it?

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Denise
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Post by Denise »

Brenda wrote:
Once these children were put in special ed, they remained there year after year
That is an interesting observation and not the first time I have heard it. One of my friends had to go to the school board to get her child into main stream classes. She did and the child is doing fine. If she hadnt been the mother she was, that child would have continued to meet the lowest commen denominator and never have become all she is today. Very sad to play with their lives in that way isnt it?
Yes, many children feel that they are labelled as underachievers and dummies to boot. The goal of special education is supposed to be to help the child back into regular classes. This isn't happening very often in my experience and the children often feel that they are stupid and not valuable. Just MHO.

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tamiO
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Re: bunch of dummies :(

Post by tamiO »

Generalisimo wrote: Why are latinos and blacks testing so poorly? Are they in crappy schools? Come from crappy homes? Don't put forth the effort? Have they already been written off by a school system more concerned with numbers than achievement?

:?
Sometimes I wonder if the ones who test poorly come from lower income families and it doesn't have much to do with color at all except for maybe the role color plays in being discriminated against in the job market and loan contracts. Growing up without much money and in substandard housing, not having two loving parents, the real dangers of having to live in high crime areas; all those things cause a tremendous amount of stress, which, in turn, hinders a child's ability to learn.

I've also mused that lower income families are probably exposed to more environmental poisons that retard learning and increase violent behavior. For instance, older homes in need of paint jobs often have flaking lead based paint and higher levels of lead have been found to be a possible cause of violent behavior by affecting a part of the brain that controls impulses. (I hope I can find that article again.)

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poohbear
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Re: bunch of dummies :(

Post by poohbear »

tamiO wrote: Sometimes I wonder if the ones who test poorly come from lower income families and it doesn't have much to do with color at all except for maybe the role color plays in being discriminated against in the job market and loan contracts. Growing up without much money and in substandard housing, not having two loving parents, the real dangers of having to live in high crime areas; all those things cause a tremendous amount of stress, which, in turn, hinders a child's ability to learn.

I've also mused that lower income families are probably exposed to more environmental poisons that retard learning and increase violent behavior. For instance, older homes in need of paint jobs often have flaking lead based paint and higher levels of lead have been found to be a possible cause of violent behavior by affecting a part of the brain that controls impulses. (I hope I can find that article again.)
Is there any breakdown available on these tests with regard to income level of parents vs. achievement. I think this may be more significant than a racial breakdown, and give us an idea if lower achievement is tied to income level rather than race, which I think may be a rather tenuous link.
There is nothing worse than aggressive stupidity. --
Johann Wolfgang von Goethe

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Denise
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Re: bunch of dummies :(

Post by Denise »

tamiO wrote:
Generalisimo wrote: Why are latinos and blacks testing so poorly? Are they in crappy schools? Come from crappy homes? Don't put forth the effort? Have they already been written off by a school system more concerned with numbers than achievement?

:?
Sometimes I wonder if the ones who test poorly come from lower income families and it doesn't have much to do with color at all except for maybe the role color plays in being discriminated against in the job market and loan contracts. Growing up without much money and in substandard housing, not having two loving parents, the real dangers of having to live in high crime areas; all those things cause a tremendous amount of stress, which, in turn, hinders a child's ability to learn.

I've also mused that lower income families are probably exposed to more environmental poisons that retard learning and increase violent behavior. For instance, older homes in need of paint jobs often have flaking lead based paint and higher levels of lead have been found to be a possible cause of violent behavior by affecting a part of the brain that controls impulses. (I hope I can find that article again.)
Yet you did, didn't you? You learned a lot, your quest for learning was probably apparent at an early age. Books are cheap. I was on welfare for a few years when my daughter was young when I divorced her father. I had clothesbaskets full of books. I had cheap refrigerator magnets to teach her the alphabet, I used cards to teach her math. Why did I do this? Because learning was important to me, more than anything I wanted my child to achieve. We can blame all sorts of things for a child's failure to achieve. The schools should do more with what time they have with the children. They need to recognize the environment the child is coming from. The parent should instill that spark to light the flame of education, the child should feel that education is the ultimate gift of life. But, if the parent doesn't do it, or isn't capable the schools should be able to. JMHO