We are the Borg.
Rob Lister
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DrMatt wrote:
gnome wrote:I would have preferred a distribution method that doesn't start with most of the money in the hands of people that have produced nothing and provided nothing.
Alas, that is one of the puzzles of Western Civilization. But this case is particularly clear.
And class envy transcends dollar-vested wealth. TerraFlops, the new upper class.

Did you know that more than 80% of the TerraFlops are controled by 20% of the population. We should redistribute them equally.
DrMatt
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ha!

We gotcher terra flops right here!

Grayman wrote:If masturbation led to homosexuality you'd think by now I'd at least have better fashion sense.
gnome
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Rob Lister wrote:
DrMatt wrote:
gnome wrote:I would have preferred a distribution method that doesn't start with most of the money in the hands of people that have produced nothing and provided nothing.
Alas, that is one of the puzzles of Western Civilization. But this case is particularly clear.
And class envy transcends dollar-vested wealth. TerraFlops, the new upper class.

Did you know that more than 80% of the TerraFlops are controled by 20% of the population. We should redistribute them equally.
Pancake bunny. The image is left as an exercise in google search.

Care to explain what point you're making, because this didn't.
"If fighting is sure to result in victory, then you must fight! Sun Tzu said that, and I'd say he knows a little bit more about fighting than you do, pal, because he invented it, and then he perfected it so that no living man could best him in the ring of honor. Then, he used his fight money to buy two of every animal on earth, and then he herded them onto a boat, and then he beat the crap out of every single one. And from that day forward any time a bunch of animals are together in one place it's called a zoo! (Beat) Unless it's a farm!"
--Soldier, TF2
Rob Lister
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gnome wrote:
Rob Lister wrote:
DrMatt wrote:
gnome wrote:I would have preferred a distribution method that doesn't start with most of the money in the hands of people that have produced nothing and provided nothing.
Alas, that is one of the puzzles of Western Civilization. But this case is particularly clear.
And class envy transcends dollar-vested wealth. TerraFlops, the new upper class.

Did you know that more than 80% of the TerraFlops are controled by 20% of the population. We should redistribute them equally.
Pancake bunny. The image is left as an exercise in google search.

Care to explain what point you're making, because this didn't.
My response was to what Matt said, but both apply to your dithering druthers, and to a lesser extent (probably), mine. All modern currency exhibits the same fundamental arbitrary distribution. Governments tend to cloak it under layers of pseudo-legitimacy, but pseudo is the key word here. It's all vapor; smoke and mirrors. It's either useful or it is not, and that's all that matters. How it gets [or got] to be that way doesn't matter one wit.

Take a look at a very important statement by a presumable very important person. This is from the 'war on drugs' thread. It's topical here too. It regards the shutdown of a ebay-esk website of catering to the sale illegal drugs using bitcoins.
ALBANY, N.Y. -- Two U.S. senators [Sens. Charles Schumer of New York and Joe Manchin] said Sunday they will ask federal authorities to crack down on a secretive narcotics market operated on the Internet with anonymous sales and untraceable currency.
They're kind of wrong on the 'untraceable' part but that's not the point. The point is that they aided the legitimization of the new currency. Ironic, huh?
EvilYeti
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Rob Lister wrote:
corplinx wrote:You burn coal for imaginary currency.
what method would you prefer for initial distribution? I think they should have made a deal with some of the big distributed computing organizations (like seti or einstein) but that's just me. still, it's working.

and all currency is imaginary.
They couldn't do that as the platform those services run on (BOINC) is both centralized and not very secure. They needed to roll their own decentralized P2P thing.

I think what everyone is missing is that the value in bitcoin isn't the virtual currency itself; its the infrastructure and integrated security mechanism that has worth.

The bitcoins themselves are just tokens that enable anonymous transactions. This isn't a MLM or ponzi scheme; its more like money laundering.
Nyarlathotep
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Rob Lister wrote:
Nyarlathotep wrote:
corplinx wrote:You burn coal for imaginary currency.

Cool. I'll get some bitcoins and use then to buy magi items for a World of Warcraft character.

Then I'd be using imaginary currency to buy imaginary things for imaginary people in an imaginary place.
and when you're done playing games you can sell your bitcoin stock, hopefully at a profit, buy a fishing rod, and relax a different way.
True. Turning real money into imaginary money is easy. Turning imaginary money into real money...THAT'S the impressive trick.
DrMatt
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EvilYeti wrote:
Rob Lister wrote:
corplinx wrote:You burn coal for imaginary currency.
what method would you prefer for initial distribution? I think they should have made a deal with some of the big distributed computing organizations (like seti or einstein) but that's just me. still, it's working.

and all currency is imaginary.
They couldn't do that as the platform those services run on (BOINC) is both centralized and not very secure. They needed to roll their own decentralized P2P thing.

I think what everyone is missing is that the value in bitcoin isn't the virtual currency itself; its the infrastructure and integrated security mechanism that has worth.

The bitcoins themselves are just tokens that enable anonymous transactions. This isn't a MLM or ponzi scheme; its more like money laundering.
In other words, it's playing in Paypal's sector, only with company scrip.
I have a couple of Famebucks on Taltopia but I've never mistaken them for money.
Grayman wrote:If masturbation led to homosexuality you'd think by now I'd at least have better fashion sense.
gnome
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Likely scenario: It remains a novelty that only a few people or vendors trade in.
But--and here's where I'm grousing... in the highly unlikely event that it somehow takes off and becomes a common medium of exchange... even if it does "stabilize" into something fair and useful, it also has the side effect of transferring large amounts of wealth to the ones that started it, for its growing pains.
"If fighting is sure to result in victory, then you must fight! Sun Tzu said that, and I'd say he knows a little bit more about fighting than you do, pal, because he invented it, and then he perfected it so that no living man could best him in the ring of honor. Then, he used his fight money to buy two of every animal on earth, and then he herded them onto a boat, and then he beat the crap out of every single one. And from that day forward any time a bunch of animals are together in one place it's called a zoo! (Beat) Unless it's a farm!"
--Soldier, TF2
Mentat
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Nyarlathotep wrote:
Rob Lister wrote:
Nyarlathotep wrote:
corplinx wrote:You burn coal for imaginary currency.

Cool. I'll get some bitcoins and use then to buy magi items for a World of Warcraft character.

Then I'd be using imaginary currency to buy imaginary things for imaginary people in an imaginary place.
and when you're done playing games you can sell your bitcoin stock, hopefully at a profit, buy a fishing rod, and relax a different way.
True. Turning real money into imaginary money is easy. Turning imaginary money into real money...THAT'S the impressive trick.
Nah, it's easy
Step 1) Make MMO_____
Step 2) Sell imaginary money for real money
Step 3) Viola, making real money from imaginary money
Step 4) Profit

Well, that's how it used to be, but the MMO game industry is so oversaturated it isn't even funny anymore. Also, imaginary money has a bad habit of producing negative results when you multiply it.
It's "pea-can", man.

Lapis Sells . . . But Who's Buying?
EvilYeti
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gnome wrote:Likely scenario: It remains a novelty that only a few people or vendors trade in.
But--and here's where I'm grousing... in the highly unlikely event that it somehow takes off and becomes a common medium of exchange... even if it does "stabilize" into something fair and useful, it also has the side effect of transferring large amounts of wealth to the ones that started it, for its growing pains.
Gresham's Law is immutable.

If it becomes successful, people will simply hoard bitcoins and then end up trading something less 'valuable' instead. At some point the market will collapse when enough people just dump their hoarded bitcoins and buy into the next big thing.

There is nothing 'magic' about bitcoin as the general idea is pretty easy to implement; especially these days.
EvilYeti
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Mentat wrote: Nah, it's easy
Step 1) Make MMO_____
Step 2) Sell imaginary money for real money
Step 3) Viola, making real money from imaginary money
Step 4) Profit

Well, that's how it used to be, but the MMO game industry is so oversaturated it isn't even funny anymore. Also, imaginary money has a bad habit of producing negative results when you multiply it.
I knew a guy that worked for Sony Online that almost went to jail for selling cloned Mana stones for the EverQuest MMO via Ebay.

Sony eventually just fired him and let it go as the lawyers couldn't figure out how to prove what he did was illegal.
Nyarlathotep
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Mentat wrote:
Nyarlathotep wrote:
Rob Lister wrote:
Nyarlathotep wrote:
corplinx wrote:You burn coal for imaginary currency.

Cool. I'll get some bitcoins and use then to buy magi items for a World of Warcraft character.

Then I'd be using imaginary currency to buy imaginary things for imaginary people in an imaginary place.
and when you're done playing games you can sell your bitcoin stock, hopefully at a profit, buy a fishing rod, and relax a different way.
True. Turning real money into imaginary money is easy. Turning imaginary money into real money...THAT'S the impressive trick.
Nah, it's easy
Step 1) Make MMO_____
Step 2) Sell imaginary money for real money
Step 3) Viola, making real money from imaginary money
Step 4) Profit

Well, that's how it used to be, but the MMO game industry is so oversaturated it isn't even funny anymore. Also, imaginary money has a bad habit of producing negative results when you multiply it.

Yeah, step 1 is the hard part. Sort of like "How to make a million dollars and naever pay taxes: Step 1-Make a million dollars..."

Even if make a crappy one, its a lot of work.
Mentat
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It's hard, but it ain't *that* hard. True, it takes quite a bit of effort but a small team could crank out a junky one in decent time. It's like all other games but you just have a server and client. Hell, there are single player games set up as server-client (freeCiv anybody?). Now, making one with the purty little 3d models running amok may require effort, but that's just the nature of making and rendering 3d models for art, not mmos in general.
It's "pea-can", man.

Lapis Sells . . . But Who's Buying?
EvilYeti
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Mentat wrote:It's hard, but it ain't *that* hard. True, it takes quite a bit of effort but a small team could crank out a junky one in decent time. It's like all other games but you just have a server and client. Hell, there are single player games set up as server-client (freeCiv anybody?). Now, making one with the purty little 3d models running amok may require effort, but that's just the nature of making and rendering 3d models for art, not mmos in general.
Sony Online just had a pretty substantial layoff (before the break-ins).

WoW makes billions, but beyond that cash cow its a brutal market.

see: http://www.mmorpg.com/gamelist.cfm
Nyarlathotep
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EvilYeti wrote: Sony Online just had a pretty substantial layoff (before the break-ins).

Surprising since DC Universe Online seems pretty popular. Even I was playing it prior to the break-ins and I generally HATE MMOs. Admittedly, haven't gone back since the attacks, though.
EvilYeti
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Nyarlathotep wrote:
Surprising since DC Universe Online seems pretty popular. Even I was playing it prior to the break-ins and I generally HATE MMOs. Admittedly, haven't gone back since the attacks, though.
It's not enough to save SOE. They have been hemorrhaging cash for years due to WoW stealing their fan base. Clunkers like Star Wars Galaxies haven't helped matters.
DrMatt
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So Rob, have you signed up yet? How much money have you converted to BitCoins?
Grayman wrote:If masturbation led to homosexuality you'd think by now I'd at least have better fashion sense.
gnome
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Is the KOTOR Online an SOE project?
"If fighting is sure to result in victory, then you must fight! Sun Tzu said that, and I'd say he knows a little bit more about fighting than you do, pal, because he invented it, and then he perfected it so that no living man could best him in the ring of honor. Then, he used his fight money to buy two of every animal on earth, and then he herded them onto a boat, and then he beat the crap out of every single one. And from that day forward any time a bunch of animals are together in one place it's called a zoo! (Beat) Unless it's a farm!"
--Soldier, TF2
Rob Lister
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DrMatt wrote:So Rob, have you signed up yet? How much money have you converted to BitCoins?
.

I have a balance of 0. I don't intend to buy any but I may put some stuff up for sale.

.
EvilYeti
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gnome wrote:Is the KOTOR Online an SOE project?
No, its BioWare+LucasArts, so its slightly less likely to suck.

Maybe.

Both of those studios "Golden Days" were 10-15 years ago. I doubt they can bring any of the old "magic" back.
gnome
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I should write them--I've solved the problem of "everyone wants to be a jedi"... have free and paid accounts, and the Jedi classes are only available to paid accounts. Not to be a bastard, but as opposed to having no free accounts at all, this will increase the population of normals without too much fuss.
"If fighting is sure to result in victory, then you must fight! Sun Tzu said that, and I'd say he knows a little bit more about fighting than you do, pal, because he invented it, and then he perfected it so that no living man could best him in the ring of honor. Then, he used his fight money to buy two of every animal on earth, and then he herded them onto a boat, and then he beat the crap out of every single one. And from that day forward any time a bunch of animals are together in one place it's called a zoo! (Beat) Unless it's a farm!"
--Soldier, TF2
EvilYeti
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gnome wrote:I should write them--I've solved the problem of "everyone wants to be a jedi"... have free and paid accounts, and the Jedi classes are only available to paid accounts. Not to be a bastard, but as opposed to having no free accounts at all, this will increase the population of normals without too much fuss.
That's a good idea; might have saved Star Wars Galaxies. Turns out actually "earning" the Jedi class wasn't very popular.

Biggest problem with allowing 'free' users is you end up with lots of griefers.

I suggested to SOE senior management in 1999 that they should make EQ free and then just sell gold/items/real estate. They weren't interested.
gnome
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They seem to have adopted the idea in part, EQ2 now has an Extended server that has both free and subscription memberships. I'm actually quite enjoying the "Silver" level--One time $10. I get access to a good portion of the game, can unlock more of it with one-time payments, and don't have to feel like I'm wasting money if I'm not using it. Last edited by gnome on Tue Jun 07, 2011 5:54 pm, edited 2 times in total. "If fighting is sure to result in victory, then you must fight! Sun Tzu said that, and I'd say he knows a little bit more about fighting than you do, pal, because he invented it, and then he perfected it so that no living man could best him in the ring of honor. Then, he used his fight money to buy two of every animal on earth, and then he herded them onto a boat, and then he beat the crap out of every single one. And from that day forward any time a bunch of animals are together in one place it's called a zoo! (Beat) Unless it's a farm!" --Soldier, TF2 gnome Posts: 25898 Joined: Tue Jun 29, 2004 12:40 am Location: New Port Richey, FL ### Re: BitCoin: Should I Sign Up? Griefers haven't been a problem that I've noticed, for free users on EQ2X. I'm not sure what their model is for prevent it but it works pretty well. "If fighting is sure to result in victory, then you must fight! Sun Tzu said that, and I'd say he knows a little bit more about fighting than you do, pal, because he invented it, and then he perfected it so that no living man could best him in the ring of honor. Then, he used his fight money to buy two of every animal on earth, and then he herded them onto a boat, and then he beat the crap out of every single one. And from that day forward any time a bunch of animals are together in one place it's called a zoo! (Beat) Unless it's a farm!" --Soldier, TF2 EvilYeti Posts: 9222 Joined: Sat Jun 05, 2004 5:55 am Location: San Diego ### Re: BitCoin: Should I Sign Up? gnome wrote:Griefers haven't been a problem that I've noticed, for free users on EQ2X. I'm not sure what their model is for prevent it but it works pretty well. They aren't popular enough to attract the wrath of anonymous. WildCat Posts: 20740 Joined: Tue Jun 15, 2004 2:53 am Location: The 33rd Ward, Chicago ### Re: BitCoin: Should I Sign Up? 1 bitcoin = 1 Full Tilt Poker play dollar. AFAIK that is the current exchange rate. Do you have questions about God? you sniveling little right-wing nutter - jj Rob Lister Posts: 23535 Joined: Sun Jul 18, 2004 7:15 pm Title: Incipient toppler Location: Swimming in Lake Ed ### Re: BitCoin: Should I Sign Up? WildCat wrote:1 bitcoin = 1 Full Tilt Poker play dollar. AFAIK that is the current exchange rate. you're only off by$20.
WildCat
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Rob Lister wrote:
WildCat wrote:1 bitcoin = 1 Full Tilt Poker play dollar.

AFAIK that is the current exchange rate.
you're only off by $20. I don't think so. Do you have questions about God? you sniveling little right-wing nutter - jj Rob Lister Posts: 23535 Joined: Sun Jul 18, 2004 7:15 pm Title: Incipient toppler Location: Swimming in Lake Ed ### Re: BitCoin: Should I Sign Up? WildCat wrote: Rob Lister wrote: WildCat wrote:1 bitcoin = 1 Full Tilt Poker play dollar. AFAIK that is the current exchange rate. you're only off by$20.
I don't think so.
now it's 23. it's been hopping around 20 for a while now.
https://mtgox.com/
that's just one exchange but probably the biggest. there are more.

if you don't believe it after I show you evidence, then you're in your own little world.
WildCat
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I remember when beanie babies were worth $20 too. But at least they could be given to the dog as a chew toy after people realized they were actually worthless. Do you have questions about God? you sniveling little right-wing nutter - jj DrMatt BANNED Posts: 29811 Joined: Fri Jul 16, 2004 4:00 pm Location: Location: Location! ### Re: BitCoin: Should I Sign Up? Rob Lister wrote: DrMatt wrote:So Rob, have you signed up yet? How much money have you converted to BitCoins? . I have a balance of 0. I don't intend to buy any but I may put some stuff up for sale. . Not even penny ante. Not a serious player. Grayman wrote:If masturbation led to homosexuality you'd think by now I'd at least have better fashion sense. Rob Lister Posts: 23535 Joined: Sun Jul 18, 2004 7:15 pm Title: Incipient toppler Location: Swimming in Lake Ed ### Re: BitCoin: Should I Sign Up? WildCat wrote:I remember when beanie babies were worth$20 too. But at least they could be given to the dog as a chew toy after people realized they were actually worthless.
Just like baseball cards, rare stamps, old coins and every other collectable. Worthless. I suppose you could consider bitcoins collectables, so, there ya go.
DrMatt
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Grayman wrote:If masturbation led to homosexuality you'd think by now I'd at least have better fashion sense.
Cool Hand
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DrMatt wrote:

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You left off "surgery."

CH
....life purpose is pay taxes -- pillory 12/05/13

And you run and you run to catch up with the sun but it's sinking
Racing around to come up behind you again
The sun is the same in a relative way, but you're older
Shorter of breath and one day closer to death.

"Time" -- Pink Floyd
DrMatt
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Cool Hand wrote:
DrMatt wrote:

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You left off "surgery."

CH
How many bits for that?
Grayman wrote:If masturbation led to homosexuality you'd think by now I'd at least have better fashion sense.
hammegk
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Cool Hand wrote:
DrMatt wrote:

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[ ] Shave               [ ] Haircut


You left off "surgery."

CH
Two bits.
WildCat
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Leaders of the open-source virtual currency project known as Bitcoin say they have no way to verify one user's claim that hundreds of thousands of dollars worth of digital coins were plucked from his computer earlier this week.

Rumors of the heist have been swirling since Monday, when a Bitcoin user named Allinvain claimed 25,000 Bitcoins, technically valued at close to $500,000, had mysteriously been transferred to an unknown user's account. Allinvain speculated the thieves made off with the windfall after using malware to compromise his Windows-based computer. "I just woke up to see a very large chunk of my bitcoin balance gone," the user wrote. "I feel like killing myself now." More than 300 posts later, it's still not clear if the claims are part of an elaborate hoax. Because Bitcoin is built on a peer-to-peer foundation that completely bypasses any sort of centralized database, it's impossible for even the architects of the digital currency to verify if a theft took place. http://www.theregister.co.uk/2011/06/16 ... ft_claims/ When libertard meets reality... Do you have questions about God? you sniveling little right-wing nutter - jj EvilYeti Posts: 9222 Joined: Sat Jun 05, 2004 5:55 am Location: San Diego ### Re: BitCoin: Should I Sign Up? WildCat wrote: http://www.theregister.co.uk/2011/06/16 ... ft_claims/ When libertard meets reality... I'm sure it was jackbooted government thugs.... Rob Lister Posts: 23535 Joined: Sun Jul 18, 2004 7:15 pm Title: Incipient toppler Location: Swimming in Lake Ed ### Re: BitCoin: Should I Sign Up? Okay, so the U.S. has a visa waiver program that allows certain folks to travel here for business purposes without a visa. But even if you don't need a visa, you better have a Visa...or at least a Mastercard. In a blog first spotted by GeekWire, someone going by the name of Doctor Nefario - founder of the Global Bitcoin Stock Exchange - says he was sent back to China by Customs and Border Protection agents at Seattle airport earlier this month. According to GeekWire, Nefario was planning to work with entrepreneurs Mike Koss and Peter Vessenes at their StartPad offices in Seattle and had already paid them in Bitcoins for office space. However, at the airport, agents were concerned that Nefario planned to spend two months in the US with only$600 in cash and no credit card. In a session that lasted between five and six hours, Nefario then tried to explain Bitcoin and how it would fund the trip.

Says the blog: ""Although I was cash poor I had more than enough bitcoin to cover all the costs of my trip and stay, I was going to be meeting with bitoption later that morning in Seattle, he had \$1500 of cash to exchange."

The agents were apparently unconvinced though and Nefario was put on a plane back to China, where he was questioned for another three hours about why he had been sent back.
http://www.finextra.com/news/fullstory. ... emid=22812
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