The aliens are silent because they're dead

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Rob Lister
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Re: The aliens are silent because they're dead

Post by Rob Lister »

Here's a cute infographic of Voyager.
Spoiler:
Image
In about a dozen years the Pu battery will be useless for sending data back. Most of the instruments will be shut down within the next 5 years.

In 40,000 years it will approach Gliese 445, a red dwarf, about 18 ly from Earth. Of course by then it will long be a lump of metal indistinguishable from any other rock.

But lets worry about it nonetheless.
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Re: The aliens are silent because they're dead

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But we had to start somewhere.
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Re: The aliens are silent because they're dead

Post by Rob Lister »

LIvE AliaNs !!!
Distant galaxy sends out 15 high-energy radio bursts

By Robert Sanders, Media relations | August 30, 2017

Breakthrough Listen, an initiative to find signs of intelligent life in the universe, has detected 15 brief but powerful radio pulses emanating from a mysterious and repeating source – FRB 121102 – far across the universe.

Fast radio bursts are brief, bright pulses of radio emission from distant but largely unknown sources, and FRB 121102 is the only one known to repeat: more than 150 high-energy bursts have been observed coming from the object, which was identified last year as a dwarf galaxy about 3 billion light years from Earth.
http://news.berkeley.edu/2017/08/30/dis ... io-bursts/

The interesting thing about this is that the signals are not regular or periodic.

Image
A sequence of 14 of the 15 detected bursts illustrate their dispersed spectrum and extreme variability. The streaks across the colored energy plot are the bursts appearing at different times and different energies because of dispersion caused by 3 billion years of travel through intergalactic space. In the top frequency spectrum, the dispersion has been removed to show the 300 microsecond pulse spike. Capturing this diverse set of bursts was made possible by the broad bandwidth that can be processed by the Breakthrough Listen backend at the Green Bank Telescope.
If the energy density was in a range from 24 to 144 Jy us, or Jansky,
http://www.astronomerstelegram.org/?rea ... %20article.
which is too hairy for me to work with, what was the original energy from a source 3 billion lightyears distant?
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Re: The aliens are silent because they're dead

Post by Rob Lister »

So now Bitcoin (et al) is spoiling our chances to meet ET.
Cryptocurrency Miners Are 'Limiting' the Search for Alien Life Now
Berkely's SETI project can't get its hands on the latest graphics cards, which are popular with cryptocurrency miners.

The UC Berkeley-based SETI project only relies on volunteers for a portion of its computing power, however, and has its own computing installations at several telescopes. But the project team ran into problems recently when it tried to expand its operations by adding the latest and most powerful computers to two observatories. The team discovered, Berkeley SETI Research Center chief scientist Dan Werthimer told the BBC, that it couldn’t find the key computer component it needed: graphics processing units (GPUs).

That’s probably thanks to cryptocurrency miners. The same cards that make PC games look amazing and can crunch alien radio signal data can also “mine” (or generate) digital coins like Ethereum and Zcash, so cryptocurrency miners are buying them in bulk and leaving few behind for anyone else.
https://motherboard.vice.com/en_us/arti ... w-gpu-seti

Too fucking bad. Perhaps SETI could use their existing CPU cycles to mine coins. At least they'd get something for their trouble.
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Re: The aliens are silent because they're dead

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Stuff about the so-called "Great Filter"

Of course, there's a lot we really don't know simply because other stars are so far away. And because we don't know how typical our own solar system is. But, there may be a little we can infer from our own planet and our own solar system.

Of the 8 major planets and all the minor planets, moons and planetoids, only one appears to have any life at all. So, there is probably a filter for life arising at all, even very simple life. It only happens where conditions are favorable. And most planetary bodies don't have favorable conditions.

However on the one planet we know of that does have favorable conditions there are literally millions of species. But only a single species with the intelligence to create advanced technology. And it took billions of years for us to evolve. And there really is no reason to suppose that the evolution of an intelligent species such as ourselves was an inevitability given that it has only happened once so far in billions of years and millions of species. So that's another filter.

So we don't necessarily need to imagine another "Great Filter" looming in our future, although there are risks. What about the depletion of fossil fuels? Or the phosphates we use for fertilizer? Or many other possible dangers.
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Re: The aliens are silent because they're dead

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Anaxagoras wrote:So we don't necessarily need to imagine another "Great Filter" looming in our future, although there are risks. What about the depletion of fossil fuels? Or the phosphates we use for fertilizer? Or many other possible dangers.
That was a fun video but what a party pooper! There were a lot of excluded middles but its a compelling argument. AI might be the great filter but the physics of the matter pretty much excludes interstellar travel for meatbags; we ain't going nowhere.

But where are the alien robots?
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Re: The aliens are silent because they're dead

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Anaxagoras wrote: However on the one planet we know of that does have favorable conditions there are literally millions of species. But only a single species with the intelligence to create advanced technology. And it took billions of years for us to evolve. And there really is no reason to suppose that the evolution of an intelligent species such as ourselves was an inevitability given that it has only happened once so far in billions of years and millions of species.
I think that's fallacious. The first species it happened to would become the dominant life and there would be little opportunity to occur again unless something caused our extinction. I wouldn't expect it to happen more than once.
"If fighting is sure to result in victory, then you must fight! Sun Tzu said that, and I'd say he knows a little bit more about fighting than you do, pal, because he invented it, and then he perfected it so that no living man could best him in the ring of honor. Then, he used his fight money to buy two of every animal on earth, and then he herded them onto a boat, and then he beat the crap out of every single one. And from that day forward any time a bunch of animals are together in one place it's called a zoo! (Beat) Unless it's a farm!"
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Re: The aliens are silent because they're dead

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gnome wrote:
Anaxagoras wrote: However on the one planet we know of that does have favorable conditions there are literally millions of species. But only a single species with the intelligence to create advanced technology. And it took billions of years for us to evolve. And there really is no reason to suppose that the evolution of an intelligent species such as ourselves was an inevitability given that it has only happened once so far in billions of years and millions of species.
I think that's fallacious. The first species it happened to would become the dominant life and there would be little opportunity to occur again unless something caused our extinction. I wouldn't expect it to happen more than once.
Yeah I understand your point, but do you understand mine? It took billions of years and billions of reproductive cycles to happen. I'm saying that it wasn't an inevitability. It could have been that life continued until our sun killed it all in a billion years from now without a single species like ours evolving.
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Re: The aliens are silent because they're dead

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Anaxagoras wrote:Stuff about the so-called "Great Filter"

Of course, there's a lot we really don't know simply because other stars are so far away.
That is the huge super galactic size FAIL of that video: the insurmountable distances with a number of physical barriers to crossing them:
  • 1. Time
    2. Resources
    3. Speed of Light: not just a good idea, it's the LAW!
it is not as if one needs to imagine some infinite source of energy to get to say 90% of the speed of light, you cannot get past it beyond "something . . . something . . . warp drive . . . worm holes" fantasies. So even with the resources and the ability to get close to the speed of light, we are talking time spaces greater than human civilization's age before you even "get" anywhere.

Let us pretend that a mere 100 light years away there is a planet where Intelligent Life arose the same time as we did. So if they invent/discover radio waves around the same time we did, we still have not received their signals or a few may make it in a few years.

Visiting it? Let us be even nicer and pick the closest known solar system a mere ~4 light years away. :hyper: As this Sobering Article notes:
Ionic Propulsion:
Currently, the slowest form of propulsion, and the most fuel-efficient, is the ion engine. A few decades ago, ionic propulsion was considered to be the subject of science fiction. However, in recent years, the technology to support ion engines has moved from theory to practice in a big way. The ESA’s SMART-1 mission for example successfully completed its mission to the Moon after taking a 13 month spiral path from the Earth.

Gravity Assist:
So, if Voyager 1 was traveling in the direction of the red dwarf Proxima Centauri at a constant velocity of 60,000 km/hr, it would take 76,000 years (or over 2,500 generations) to travel that distance. But if it could attain the record-breaking speed of Helios 2‘s close approach of the Sun – a constant speed of 240,000 km/hr – it would take 19,000 years (or over 600 generations) to travel 4.243 light years. Significantly better, but still not in the ream of practicality.

Nuculer: [Stop that.--Ed.]
But adjusted for a one-way journey to Proxima Centauri, a nuclear rocket would still take centuries to accelerate to the point where it was flying a fraction of the speed of light. It would then require several decades of travel time, followed by many more centuries of deceleration before reaching it destination. All told, were still talking about 1000 years before it reaches its destination. Good for interplanetary missions, not so good for interstellar ones.
crushes all hopes.

Forget imagined filters.

That video was bad and they should feel bad for making it.

Tentacles.

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Re: The aliens are silent because they're dead

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You all do realize that it was all over the first time Slim Whitman's singing was broadcast on radio.
The flash of light you saw in the sky was not a UFO. Swamp gas from a weather balloon was trapped in a thermal pocket and reflected the light from Venus.
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Re: The aliens are silent because they're dead

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Doctor X wrote:
Anaxagoras wrote:Stuff about the so-called "Great Filter"

Of course, there's a lot we really don't know simply because other stars are so far away.
That is the huge super galactic size FAIL of that video: the insurmountable distances with a number of physical barriers to crossing them:
  • 1. Time
    2. Resources
    3. Speed of Light: not just a good idea, it's the LAW!
it is not as if one needs to imagine some infinite source of energy to get to say 90% of the speed of light, you cannot get past it beyond "something . . . something . . . warp drive . . . worm holes" fantasies. So even with the resources and the ability to get close to the speed of light, we are talking time spaces greater than human civilization's age before you even "get" anywhere.

Let us pretend that a mere 100 light years away there is a planet where Intelligent Life arose the same time as we did. So if they invent/discover radio waves around the same time we did, we still have not received their signals or a few may make it in a few years.

Visiting it? Let us be even nicer and pick the closest known solar system a mere ~4 light years away. :hyper: As this Sobering Article notes:
Ionic Propulsion:
Currently, the slowest form of propulsion, and the most fuel-efficient, is the ion engine. A few decades ago, ionic propulsion was considered to be the subject of science fiction. However, in recent years, the technology to support ion engines has moved from theory to practice in a big way. The ESA’s SMART-1 mission for example successfully completed its mission to the Moon after taking a 13 month spiral path from the Earth.

Gravity Assist:
So, if Voyager 1 was traveling in the direction of the red dwarf Proxima Centauri at a constant velocity of 60,000 km/hr, it would take 76,000 years (or over 2,500 generations) to travel that distance. But if it could attain the record-breaking speed of Helios 2‘s close approach of the Sun – a constant speed of 240,000 km/hr – it would take 19,000 years (or over 600 generations) to travel 4.243 light years. Significantly better, but still not in the ream of practicality.

Nuculer: [Stop that.--Ed.]
But adjusted for a one-way journey to Proxima Centauri, a nuclear rocket would still take centuries to accelerate to the point where it was flying a fraction of the speed of light. It would then require several decades of travel time, followed by many more centuries of deceleration before reaching it destination. All told, were still talking about 1000 years before it reaches its destination. Good for interplanetary missions, not so good for interstellar ones.
crushes all hopes.

Forget imagined filters.

That video was bad and they should feel bad for making it.

Tentacles.

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Re: The aliens are silent because they're dead

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Someone may need to do some actual math here, but I think there's a sort of relativistic loophole for stubborn interstellar travelers.

Let's talk about a 10,000 year journey to another star. At sufficient acceleration (and my understanding is these effects occur even with reasonable acceleration rates such as 1g), the time it takes seems shorter to the people on board. So (and I'm pulling it out of my ass here) let's say it only took 10 years from the POV of the crew. You could get out there, take a week for sightseeing and alien hookers, and then return only 20 years later by your time. However, it would be 20,000 years later Earth time when you arrived.

Have I got that right?
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Re: The aliens are silent because they're dead

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gnome wrote:Someone may need to do some actual math here, but I think there's a sort of relativistic loophole for stubborn interstellar travelers.

Let's talk about a 10,000 year journey to another star. At sufficient acceleration (and my understanding is these effects occur even with reasonable acceleration rates such as 1g), the time it takes seems shorter to the people on board. So (and I'm pulling it out of my ass here) let's say it only took 10 years from the POV of the crew. You could get out there, take a week for sightseeing and alien hookers, and then return only 20 years later by your time. However, it would be 20,000 years later Earth time when you arrived.

Have I got that right?
That's true
To achieve your 1000:1 dilation, you'll need a relative velocity 99.99% c.
Even slightly less, like 299700 km/s gets you only a 40:1 dilation. http://keisan.casio.com/exec/system/1224059993

It would [only] take you 12 months of constant acceleration at your 1 G to reach that speed. http://www.smartconversion.com/unit_cal ... lator.aspx

But ...

Somewhere around 1 month into your mission you're traveling at about 1/10th c. You're starting to notice something funny is going on. There's a funny smell. It's you! Those micrometeoroids that normally just pit the spaceship like a sandblaster at 10 k/s are now hitting you at 30,000 k/s, and of course going right through.

The moral of the story is: Meatbags ain't going nowhere. https://arxiv.org/pdf/1503.05845v1.pdf
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Re: The aliens are silent because they're dead

Post by gnome »

Well damn. Tell Amber she won't be able to quit early that night after all.

Seriously though, I just found a loophole in relativity--surely some plain Newtonian hurdle like micrometeors won't prove an insurmountable obstacle.

Thank god we invented the... whatever... that keeps those from damaging the ship. Maybe something mounted on the front that deflects them. A dish of some kind.
"If fighting is sure to result in victory, then you must fight! Sun Tzu said that, and I'd say he knows a little bit more about fighting than you do, pal, because he invented it, and then he perfected it so that no living man could best him in the ring of honor. Then, he used his fight money to buy two of every animal on earth, and then he herded them onto a boat, and then he beat the crap out of every single one. And from that day forward any time a bunch of animals are together in one place it's called a zoo! (Beat) Unless it's a farm!"
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Re: The aliens are silent because they're dead

Post by Anaxagoras »

Rob Lister wrote:
gnome wrote:Someone may need to do some actual math here, but I think there's a sort of relativistic loophole for stubborn interstellar travelers.

Let's talk about a 10,000 year journey to another star. At sufficient acceleration (and my understanding is these effects occur even with reasonable acceleration rates such as 1g), the time it takes seems shorter to the people on board. So (and I'm pulling it out of my ass here) let's say it only took 10 years from the POV of the crew. You could get out there, take a week for sightseeing and alien hookers, and then return only 20 years later by your time. However, it would be 20,000 years later Earth time when you arrived.

Have I got that right?
That's true
To achieve your 1000:1 dilation, you'll need a relative velocity 99.99% c.
Even slightly less, like 299700 km/s gets you only a 40:1 dilation. http://keisan.casio.com/exec/system/1224059993

It would [only] take you 12 months of constant acceleration at your 1 G to reach that speed. http://www.smartconversion.com/unit_cal ... lator.aspx

But ...

Somewhere around 1 month into your mission you're traveling at about 1/10th c. You're starting to notice something funny is going on. There's a funny smell. It's you! Those micrometeoroids that normally just pit the spaceship like a sandblaster at 10 k/s are now hitting you at 30,000 k/s, and of course going right through.

The moral of the story is: Meatbags ain't going nowhere. https://arxiv.org/pdf/1503.05845v1.pdf
I think there's also a corresponding mass increase such that if time dilation is 2:1, for example, your mass has effectively doubled, and at 40:1 your mass is 40 times heavier. (This is what I'm relying on.) Thus, the closer you approach to C, the more energy you need to get additional acceleration. I do wonder if some kind of electromagnetic field around the ship could deflect those micrometeoroids?
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Re: The aliens are silent because they're dead

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To accelerate some mass to near-relativistic speed you'll also need energy, roughly as much as the mass itself (E = mc2). Then that again to brake. So the spaceship would need to start with enormous reserves of matter + antimatter, convert that with ~ 100 % efficiency, shield the crew (or computer) from the radiation, bleed the residual heat away, and a drive without propellant (the famed "photon drive"?).

No way. :(
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Re: The aliens are silent because they're dead

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Abdul Alhazred wrote:Note: Within your own inertial frame of reference there is no increase in mass.
Then how come I keep gaining weight?
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Re: The aliens are silent because they're dead

Post by Rob Lister »

gnome wrote:Well damn. Tell Amber she won't be able to quit early that night after all.

Seriously though, I just found a loophole in relativity--surely some plain Newtonian hurdle like micrometeors won't prove an insurmountable obstacle.

Thank god we invented the... whatever... that keeps those from damaging the ship. Maybe something mounted on the front that deflects them. A dish of some kind.
Nominally, according to lots of Sci-fi anyway, you'd want a huge electromagnetic field projecting out the front of the spaceship to "funnel in" all the Hydrogen atoms in the forward path of your ship and use that as fuel for your fusion generator.

There are between 0.1 to 1.0 atoms/cm2 in our local area (and ~1000 near the galactic core). It is a [not quite] trivial calculation to establish just how big/strong that field would have to be at any given speed to provide enough fuel to continue acceleration. https://hypertextbook.com/facts/2000/DaWeiCai.shtml

Maybe the pretend electromagnetic field that powers the pretend fusion generator on the pretend spaceship can also deflect the decidedly real spacedust.
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Re: The aliens are silent because they're dead

Post by gnome »

Well there you go then!

Musk can start selling tickets.
"If fighting is sure to result in victory, then you must fight! Sun Tzu said that, and I'd say he knows a little bit more about fighting than you do, pal, because he invented it, and then he perfected it so that no living man could best him in the ring of honor. Then, he used his fight money to buy two of every animal on earth, and then he herded them onto a boat, and then he beat the crap out of every single one. And from that day forward any time a bunch of animals are together in one place it's called a zoo! (Beat) Unless it's a farm!"
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Re: The aliens are silent because they're dead

Post by Rob Lister »

Anaxagoras wrote: Mon Feb 19, 2018 2:15 am
Rob Lister wrote:
gnome wrote:Someone may need to do some actual math here, but I think there's a sort of relativistic loophole for stubborn interstellar travelers.

Let's talk about a 10,000 year journey to another star. At sufficient acceleration (and my understanding is these effects occur even with reasonable acceleration rates such as 1g), the time it takes seems shorter to the people on board. So (and I'm pulling it out of my ass here) let's say it only took 10 years from the POV of the crew. You could get out there, take a week for sightseeing and alien hookers, and then return only 20 years later by your time. However, it would be 20,000 years later Earth time when you arrived.

Have I got that right?
That's true
To achieve your 1000:1 dilation, you'll need a relative velocity 99.99% c.
Even slightly less, like 299700 km/s gets you only a 40:1 dilation. http://keisan.casio.com/exec/system/1224059993

It would [only] take you 12 months of constant acceleration at your 1 G to reach that speed. http://www.smartconversion.com/unit_cal ... lator.aspx

But ...

Somewhere around 1 month into your mission you're traveling at about 1/10th c. You're starting to notice something funny is going on. There's a funny smell. It's you! Those micrometeoroids that normally just pit the spaceship like a sandblaster at 10 k/s are now hitting you at 30,000 k/s, and of course going right through.

The moral of the story is: Meatbags ain't going nowhere. https://arxiv.org/pdf/1503.05845v1.pdf
I think there's also a corresponding mass increase such that if time dilation is 2:1, for example, your mass has effectively doubled, and at 40:1 your mass is 40 times heavier. (This is what I'm relying on.) Thus, the closer you approach to C, the more energy you need to get additional acceleration. I do wonder if some kind of electromagnetic field around the ship could deflect those micrometeoroids?
Maybe, but it's worth pointing out that the micrometeoroids are also 40 times more massive. Unprotected, I think you'd be little more than goo in an hour or so.

WTF, why the necro-bump, you ask?

Related topic
Scientists Have Surprisingly Specific Answer on Alien Life

Study estimates 36 alien civilizations exist in our galaxy capable of communicating with us

(Newser) – Asked the meaning of life, the supercomputer in the Hitchhiker's Guide to the Galaxy came up with a very specific answer: 42. Tasked with a different Big Question—how many intelligent alien civilizations exist in our galaxy—real-life scientists have gotten just as specific: 36. That's the estimate from a team of researchers out of the University of Nottingham in England, reports the Guardian. The estimate is based on a big assumption: that life elsewhere in the Milky Way would form in generally the same way as it did on Earth. Starting from that premise, researchers crunched data on existing stars, exoplanets, conditions, etc., and came up with a range of four to 211, with 36 being the most likely number, according to the study in the Astrophysical Journal.

"The classic method for estimating the number of intelligent civilizations relies on making guesses of values relating to life, whereby opinions about such matters vary quite substantially," says co-author Tom Westby. He's referring to the long-standing Drake equation, which results in not-so-helpful estimates ranging from zero to billions, per a news release. "Our new study simplifies these assumptions using new data, giving us a solid estimate of the number of civilizations in our galaxy." Alas, the study figures the nearest one to be 17,000 light-years away, making communication a little difficult. Researchers estimate our own civilization would have to last more than 6,000 years before any two-way communication could take place. A weak point of the study? That original assumption that Earth is a handy model, a skeptical scientist tells Live Science. (Read more discoveries stories.)
https://www.newser.com/story/292298/sci ... -life.html

I don't understand the 6000year number.
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Re: The aliens are silent because they're dead

Post by Anaxagoras »

17,000 light years is pretty damn far and obviously it means that any kind of communication would take 17,000 years. Each way. Thus 34,000 years to send a message and get a reply, minimum.

But I also doubt their model. Maybe 6,000 is if the number of civilizations is on the high end of the range.
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Re: The aliens are silent because they're dead

Post by Anaxagoras »

There's no reason to assume that another planet like earth would produce a technological civilization like our own. It took life on earth billions of years to produce a single intelligent technological species. I bet that life is fairly common but that intelligent life is rare. And certainly not an inevitable result of evolution. Cockroaches are probably better adapted than we are for long term sustainability.
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Re: The aliens are silent because they're dead

Post by Rob Lister »

I bet a cockroach thinks it pretty fucking smart.

As far as communication goes, just detecting it is one form, I suppose. Being able to analyze the atmosphere will tell us if there is life, or recent intelligent life if there are fluorocarbons and the like.

The most farthest exoplanet so far discovered is SWEEPS J175902.67−291153.5, at 27,710 light years.(wiki)
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Re: The aliens are silent because they're dead

Post by gnome »

Unfortunately being able to fill in more of the variables in Drake's Equation than thirty years ago doesn't make us any more confident of the major unknowns still present. For anything involving the development of life, we still have a sample size of one.
"If fighting is sure to result in victory, then you must fight! Sun Tzu said that, and I'd say he knows a little bit more about fighting than you do, pal, because he invented it, and then he perfected it so that no living man could best him in the ring of honor. Then, he used his fight money to buy two of every animal on earth, and then he herded them onto a boat, and then he beat the crap out of every single one. And from that day forward any time a bunch of animals are together in one place it's called a zoo! (Beat) Unless it's a farm!"
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Re: The aliens are silent because they're dead

Post by Anaxagoras »

Intead of approaching the question in such an abstract way, what if we look for nearby stars that look similar to our own sun?

What's the closest one? How far away are the closest 10, the closest 100?

Stars within say .85-1.1 solar masses not in binary system?
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Re: The aliens are silent because they're dead

Post by gnome »

To meet in ritual combat, so as to decide whether the Path of Now and Forever, or the Eternal Doctrine, is supreme.

Wait, that's Star Control universe.
"If fighting is sure to result in victory, then you must fight! Sun Tzu said that, and I'd say he knows a little bit more about fighting than you do, pal, because he invented it, and then he perfected it so that no living man could best him in the ring of honor. Then, he used his fight money to buy two of every animal on earth, and then he herded them onto a boat, and then he beat the crap out of every single one. And from that day forward any time a bunch of animals are together in one place it's called a zoo! (Beat) Unless it's a farm!"
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Re: The aliens are silent because they're dead

Post by Fid »

I always assumed that any signal received would need to be aimed at us and at a huge power level.

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Re: The aliens are silent because they're dead

Post by Anaxagoras »

Not surprised. It's like Fid says, even if they were there somewhere among the 10 million stars surveyed, I don't think it's likely that even an array of powerful radio telescopes would actually be able to pick up any signals from them.
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Re: The aliens are silent because they're dead

Post by robinson »

Considering the time factor, the signal may be 40,000 tears away still
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Re: The aliens are silent because they're dead

Post by Anaxagoras »

funny typo
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Re: The aliens are silent because they're dead

Post by robinson »

The fears of a clown
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Re: The aliens are silent because they're dead

Post by robinson »

Anaxagoras wrote: Wed Sep 09, 2020 11:13 pm funny typo
Funny enough to leave it in
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Re: The aliens are silent because they're dead

Post by gnome »

Anaxagoras wrote: Mon Feb 19, 2018 2:15 am
I think there's also a corresponding mass increase such that if time dilation is 2:1, for example, your mass has effectively doubled, and at 40:1 your mass is 40 times heavier. (This is what I'm relying on.) Thus, the closer you approach to C, the more energy you need to get additional acceleration. I do wonder if some kind of electromagnetic field around the ship could deflect those micrometeoroids?
Something I never got to asking about related to this--Anax points to increasing energy requirements to keep up with the increased mass of the ship. If the whole ship is increasing in mass, then the fuel is too. Do you get more output from it as a result? Is the propellant also gaining mass, and thus more effective at pushing the ship? The laws of thermodynamics being the buzzkill that they are, maintaining some kind of parity between thrust and mass gain is probably wishful thinking. But has someone worked out that aspect of it before?
"If fighting is sure to result in victory, then you must fight! Sun Tzu said that, and I'd say he knows a little bit more about fighting than you do, pal, because he invented it, and then he perfected it so that no living man could best him in the ring of honor. Then, he used his fight money to buy two of every animal on earth, and then he herded them onto a boat, and then he beat the crap out of every single one. And from that day forward any time a bunch of animals are together in one place it's called a zoo! (Beat) Unless it's a farm!"
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Re: The aliens are silent because they're dead

Post by Witness »

You don't get relativity. On board of the ship nothing changes. (Good luck to your heart trying to pump blood 40x more massive…) So the Δv from some fuel expenditure would be strictly the same – as measured by on-board instruments.

But seen from outside, by an observer supposed to be "at rest", velocities don't add in the simple Galilean fashion, you have to use:

new speed = (old speed + Δv)/(1 + (old speed)*Δv /c2)

See: Velocity-addition formula.
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Re: The aliens are silent because they're dead

Post by gnome »

So if, by inside reckoning, I am accelerating at 1G, once relativistic effects become non-trivial, what does that look like from outside?
"If fighting is sure to result in victory, then you must fight! Sun Tzu said that, and I'd say he knows a little bit more about fighting than you do, pal, because he invented it, and then he perfected it so that no living man could best him in the ring of honor. Then, he used his fight money to buy two of every animal on earth, and then he herded them onto a boat, and then he beat the crap out of every single one. And from that day forward any time a bunch of animals are together in one place it's called a zoo! (Beat) Unless it's a farm!"
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Re: The aliens are silent because they're dead

Post by robinson »

Nobody actually knows, because observation also depends on your relative motion. By "knows" I mean nobody has an image to show, and considering the distances and relative velocity, I wouldn't hold your breath waiting for a Youtube video.

Math and theory tell us things get much more massive as they "go faster", that shit actually swells up, but nobody observes this actually happening.
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Re: The aliens are silent because they're dead

Post by robinson »

That opinion is of course, just my opinion. I would love to be proven wrong, and somebody slaps a video into this thread of a spaceship changing size as it goes faster. But I'm not waiting up nights.
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Re: The aliens are silent because they're dead

Post by gnome »

I use "look" kind of loosely. I'd be satisfied with a description based on theory. And it's more about what kind of progress the ship looks like it's making from the observer's point of view. I'm told that the mass of the ship increases but you can't tell from inside. Does that mean that from inside it doesn't seem to be impeding progress or escalating the energy needed to maintain acceleration?

I have a grasp on a lot of relativity, just this point I get stuck on.
"If fighting is sure to result in victory, then you must fight! Sun Tzu said that, and I'd say he knows a little bit more about fighting than you do, pal, because he invented it, and then he perfected it so that no living man could best him in the ring of honor. Then, he used his fight money to buy two of every animal on earth, and then he herded them onto a boat, and then he beat the crap out of every single one. And from that day forward any time a bunch of animals are together in one place it's called a zoo! (Beat) Unless it's a farm!"
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Re: The aliens are silent because they're dead

Post by Anaxagoras »

gnome wrote: Mon Oct 12, 2020 5:03 am So if, by inside reckoning, I am accelerating at 1G, once relativistic effects become non-trivial, what does that look like from outside?
From the outside? I assume you mean a stationary observer.

Rulers get shorter (and of course, everything else too, including the spaceship) in the direction of travel. And clocks run slower.
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Re: The aliens are silent because they're dead

Post by ed »

If I accelerate a gram of matter and direct it at an object, how much energy is released?

What are the implications for a craft being struck by atoms/molecules as it moves at high speeds?

If the mass of the object increases as it accelerates, does it not create a gravity depression that will tend to draw matter towards it?

Will the very act of accelerating provide an unavoidable quietus for the craft?

Could it be that every black hole that we observe is a failed effort a light speed by other civilizations?

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Re: The aliens are silent because they're dead

Post by gnome »

Anaxagoras wrote: Mon Oct 12, 2020 12:46 pm
gnome wrote: Mon Oct 12, 2020 5:03 am So if, by inside reckoning, I am accelerating at 1G, once relativistic effects become non-trivial, what does that look like from outside?
From the outside? I assume you mean a stationary observer.

Rulers get shorter (and of course, everything else too, including the spaceship) in the direction of travel. And clocks run slower.
That part I get--more the question of, which frame of reference most directly feels the problem of increasing mass requiring more force for acceleration?
"If fighting is sure to result in victory, then you must fight! Sun Tzu said that, and I'd say he knows a little bit more about fighting than you do, pal, because he invented it, and then he perfected it so that no living man could best him in the ring of honor. Then, he used his fight money to buy two of every animal on earth, and then he herded them onto a boat, and then he beat the crap out of every single one. And from that day forward any time a bunch of animals are together in one place it's called a zoo! (Beat) Unless it's a farm!"
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Re: The aliens are silent because they're dead

Post by Anaxagoras »

gnome wrote: Mon Oct 12, 2020 2:11 pm
Anaxagoras wrote: Mon Oct 12, 2020 12:46 pm
gnome wrote: Mon Oct 12, 2020 5:03 am So if, by inside reckoning, I am accelerating at 1G, once relativistic effects become non-trivial, what does that look like from outside?
From the outside? I assume you mean a stationary observer.

Rulers get shorter (and of course, everything else too, including the spaceship) in the direction of travel. And clocks run slower.
That part I get--more the question of, which frame of reference most directly feels the problem of increasing mass requiring more force for acceleration?
That would be the one that isn't moving. The mass doesn't really change from the perspective of people on the spaceship.
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Re: The aliens are silent because they're dead

Post by robinson »

These questions are some of the really hard questions, just in case there is any question about that
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Re: The aliens are silent because they're dead

Post by gnome »

Anaxagoras wrote: Mon Oct 12, 2020 2:20 pm
gnome wrote: Mon Oct 12, 2020 2:11 pm
Anaxagoras wrote: Mon Oct 12, 2020 12:46 pm
gnome wrote: Mon Oct 12, 2020 5:03 am So if, by inside reckoning, I am accelerating at 1G, once relativistic effects become non-trivial, what does that look like from outside?
From the outside? I assume you mean a stationary observer.

Rulers get shorter (and of course, everything else too, including the spaceship) in the direction of travel. And clocks run slower.
That part I get--more the question of, which frame of reference most directly feels the problem of increasing mass requiring more force for acceleration?
That would be the one that isn't moving. The mass doesn't really change from the perspective of people on the spaceship.
Right so my point being, is that an obstacle to my scheme of maintaining 1G and traveling so far from my own point of view, even if it's taking millenia from a stationary frame of reference?
"If fighting is sure to result in victory, then you must fight! Sun Tzu said that, and I'd say he knows a little bit more about fighting than you do, pal, because he invented it, and then he perfected it so that no living man could best him in the ring of honor. Then, he used his fight money to buy two of every animal on earth, and then he herded them onto a boat, and then he beat the crap out of every single one. And from that day forward any time a bunch of animals are together in one place it's called a zoo! (Beat) Unless it's a farm!"
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Re: The aliens are silent because they're dead

Post by ed »

Avoid my really hard questions.
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Re: The aliens are silent because they're dead

Post by gnome »

I liked them. I just have no idea.
"If fighting is sure to result in victory, then you must fight! Sun Tzu said that, and I'd say he knows a little bit more about fighting than you do, pal, because he invented it, and then he perfected it so that no living man could best him in the ring of honor. Then, he used his fight money to buy two of every animal on earth, and then he herded them onto a boat, and then he beat the crap out of every single one. And from that day forward any time a bunch of animals are together in one place it's called a zoo! (Beat) Unless it's a farm!"
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Re: The aliens are silent because they're dead

Post by ed »

makes you think
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Re: The aliens are silent because they're dead

Post by Witness »

I posted a small Relativity puzzle, just so we know what we're talking about. :mrgreen:
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Re: The aliens are silent because they're dead

Post by robinson »

Mass does not increase with speed or acceleration

There are no extra atoms, no increase in the size, no particles appear, this is just how it is. No matter how much you accelerate anything, more matter does not show up. What is being theorized is called relativistic mass.

And that is a touchy subject in physics, even when the majority agrees, that doesn’t mean it is settled, or even understood.


But no new “stuff” appears, so gravity does not change for an object moving or accelerating.
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Re: The aliens are silent because they're dead

Post by robinson »

As for being “struck”, it’s the same as if the objects are moving and you are stationary. If you are moving relative to an object at very high velocity, it’s the same as if you are still and the object is hitting you at high velocity
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