The aliens are silent because they're dead
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Re: The aliens are silent because they're dead
The fears of a clown
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Re: The aliens are silent because they're dead
Funny enough to leave it in
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Re: The aliens are silent because they're dead
Something I never got to asking about related to this--Anax points to increasing energy requirements to keep up with the increased mass of the ship. If the whole ship is increasing in mass, then the fuel is too. Do you get more output from it as a result? Is the propellant also gaining mass, and thus more effective at pushing the ship? The laws of thermodynamics being the buzzkill that they are, maintaining some kind of parity between thrust and mass gain is probably wishful thinking. But has someone worked out that aspect of it before?Anaxagoras wrote: ↑Mon Feb 19, 2018 2:15 am
I think there's also a corresponding mass increase such that if time dilation is 2:1, for example, your mass has effectively doubled, and at 40:1 your mass is 40 times heavier. (This is what I'm relying on.) Thus, the closer you approach to C, the more energy you need to get additional acceleration. I do wonder if some kind of electromagnetic field around the ship could deflect those micrometeoroids?
"If fighting is sure to result in victory, then you must fight! Sun Tzu said that, and I'd say he knows a little bit more about fighting than you do, pal, because he invented it, and then he perfected it so that no living man could best him in the ring of honor. Then, he used his fight money to buy two of every animal on earth, and then he herded them onto a boat, and then he beat the crap out of every single one. And from that day forward any time a bunch of animals are together in one place it's called a zoo! (Beat) Unless it's a farm!"
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Re: The aliens are silent because they're dead
You don't get relativity. On board of the ship nothing changes. (Good luck to your heart trying to pump blood 40x more massive…) So the Δv from some fuel expenditure would be strictly the same – as measured by on-board instruments.
But seen from outside, by an observer supposed to be "at rest", velocities don't add in the simple Galilean fashion, you have to use:
new speed = (old speed + Δv)/(1 + (old speed)*Δv /c2)
See: Velocity-addition formula.
But seen from outside, by an observer supposed to be "at rest", velocities don't add in the simple Galilean fashion, you have to use:
new speed = (old speed + Δv)/(1 + (old speed)*Δv /c2)
See: Velocity-addition formula.
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Re: The aliens are silent because they're dead
So if, by inside reckoning, I am accelerating at 1G, once relativistic effects become non-trivial, what does that look like from outside?
"If fighting is sure to result in victory, then you must fight! Sun Tzu said that, and I'd say he knows a little bit more about fighting than you do, pal, because he invented it, and then he perfected it so that no living man could best him in the ring of honor. Then, he used his fight money to buy two of every animal on earth, and then he herded them onto a boat, and then he beat the crap out of every single one. And from that day forward any time a bunch of animals are together in one place it's called a zoo! (Beat) Unless it's a farm!"
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Re: The aliens are silent because they're dead
Nobody actually knows, because observation also depends on your relative motion. By "knows" I mean nobody has an image to show, and considering the distances and relative velocity, I wouldn't hold your breath waiting for a Youtube video.
Math and theory tell us things get much more massive as they "go faster", that shit actually swells up, but nobody observes this actually happening.
Math and theory tell us things get much more massive as they "go faster", that shit actually swells up, but nobody observes this actually happening.
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Re: The aliens are silent because they're dead
That opinion is of course, just my opinion. I would love to be proven wrong, and somebody slaps a video into this thread of a spaceship changing size as it goes faster. But I'm not waiting up nights.
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Re: The aliens are silent because they're dead
I use "look" kind of loosely. I'd be satisfied with a description based on theory. And it's more about what kind of progress the ship looks like it's making from the observer's point of view. I'm told that the mass of the ship increases but you can't tell from inside. Does that mean that from inside it doesn't seem to be impeding progress or escalating the energy needed to maintain acceleration?
I have a grasp on a lot of relativity, just this point I get stuck on.
I have a grasp on a lot of relativity, just this point I get stuck on.
"If fighting is sure to result in victory, then you must fight! Sun Tzu said that, and I'd say he knows a little bit more about fighting than you do, pal, because he invented it, and then he perfected it so that no living man could best him in the ring of honor. Then, he used his fight money to buy two of every animal on earth, and then he herded them onto a boat, and then he beat the crap out of every single one. And from that day forward any time a bunch of animals are together in one place it's called a zoo! (Beat) Unless it's a farm!"
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Re: The aliens are silent because they're dead
From the outside? I assume you mean a stationary observer.
Rulers get shorter (and of course, everything else too, including the spaceship) in the direction of travel. And clocks run slower.
A fool thinks himself to be wise, but a wise man knows himself to be a fool.
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Re: The aliens are silent because they're dead
If I accelerate a gram of matter and direct it at an object, how much energy is released?
What are the implications for a craft being struck by atoms/molecules as it moves at high speeds?
If the mass of the object increases as it accelerates, does it not create a gravity depression that will tend to draw matter towards it?
Will the very act of accelerating provide an unavoidable quietus for the craft?
Could it be that every black hole that we observe is a failed effort a light speed by other civilizations?
I am turning into Robinson. Help me.
What are the implications for a craft being struck by atoms/molecules as it moves at high speeds?
If the mass of the object increases as it accelerates, does it not create a gravity depression that will tend to draw matter towards it?
Will the very act of accelerating provide an unavoidable quietus for the craft?
Could it be that every black hole that we observe is a failed effort a light speed by other civilizations?
I am turning into Robinson. Help me.
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Re: The aliens are silent because they're dead
That part I get--more the question of, which frame of reference most directly feels the problem of increasing mass requiring more force for acceleration?Anaxagoras wrote: ↑Mon Oct 12, 2020 12:46 pmFrom the outside? I assume you mean a stationary observer.
Rulers get shorter (and of course, everything else too, including the spaceship) in the direction of travel. And clocks run slower.
"If fighting is sure to result in victory, then you must fight! Sun Tzu said that, and I'd say he knows a little bit more about fighting than you do, pal, because he invented it, and then he perfected it so that no living man could best him in the ring of honor. Then, he used his fight money to buy two of every animal on earth, and then he herded them onto a boat, and then he beat the crap out of every single one. And from that day forward any time a bunch of animals are together in one place it's called a zoo! (Beat) Unless it's a farm!"
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Re: The aliens are silent because they're dead
That would be the one that isn't moving. The mass doesn't really change from the perspective of people on the spaceship.gnome wrote: ↑Mon Oct 12, 2020 2:11 pmThat part I get--more the question of, which frame of reference most directly feels the problem of increasing mass requiring more force for acceleration?Anaxagoras wrote: ↑Mon Oct 12, 2020 12:46 pmFrom the outside? I assume you mean a stationary observer.
Rulers get shorter (and of course, everything else too, including the spaceship) in the direction of travel. And clocks run slower.
A fool thinks himself to be wise, but a wise man knows himself to be a fool.
William Shakespeare
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Re: The aliens are silent because they're dead
These questions are some of the really hard questions, just in case there is any question about that
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Re: The aliens are silent because they're dead
Right so my point being, is that an obstacle to my scheme of maintaining 1G and traveling so far from my own point of view, even if it's taking millenia from a stationary frame of reference?Anaxagoras wrote: ↑Mon Oct 12, 2020 2:20 pmThat would be the one that isn't moving. The mass doesn't really change from the perspective of people on the spaceship.gnome wrote: ↑Mon Oct 12, 2020 2:11 pmThat part I get--more the question of, which frame of reference most directly feels the problem of increasing mass requiring more force for acceleration?Anaxagoras wrote: ↑Mon Oct 12, 2020 12:46 pmFrom the outside? I assume you mean a stationary observer.
Rulers get shorter (and of course, everything else too, including the spaceship) in the direction of travel. And clocks run slower.
"If fighting is sure to result in victory, then you must fight! Sun Tzu said that, and I'd say he knows a little bit more about fighting than you do, pal, because he invented it, and then he perfected it so that no living man could best him in the ring of honor. Then, he used his fight money to buy two of every animal on earth, and then he herded them onto a boat, and then he beat the crap out of every single one. And from that day forward any time a bunch of animals are together in one place it's called a zoo! (Beat) Unless it's a farm!"
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Re: The aliens are silent because they're dead
I liked them. I just have no idea.
"If fighting is sure to result in victory, then you must fight! Sun Tzu said that, and I'd say he knows a little bit more about fighting than you do, pal, because he invented it, and then he perfected it so that no living man could best him in the ring of honor. Then, he used his fight money to buy two of every animal on earth, and then he herded them onto a boat, and then he beat the crap out of every single one. And from that day forward any time a bunch of animals are together in one place it's called a zoo! (Beat) Unless it's a farm!"
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Re: The aliens are silent because they're dead
I posted a small Relativity puzzle, just so we know what we're talking about. 

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Re: The aliens are silent because they're dead
Mass does not increase with speed or acceleration
There are no extra atoms, no increase in the size, no particles appear, this is just how it is. No matter how much you accelerate anything, more matter does not show up. What is being theorized is called relativistic mass.
And that is a touchy subject in physics, even when the majority agrees, that doesn’t mean it is settled, or even understood.
But no new “stuff” appears, so gravity does not change for an object moving or accelerating.
There are no extra atoms, no increase in the size, no particles appear, this is just how it is. No matter how much you accelerate anything, more matter does not show up. What is being theorized is called relativistic mass.
And that is a touchy subject in physics, even when the majority agrees, that doesn’t mean it is settled, or even understood.
But no new “stuff” appears, so gravity does not change for an object moving or accelerating.
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Re: The aliens are silent because they're dead
As for being “struck”, it’s the same as if the objects are moving and you are stationary. If you are moving relative to an object at very high velocity, it’s the same as if you are still and the object is hitting you at high velocity
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Re: The aliens are silent because they're dead
If you are hammering down the road at 100 mph, hitting a stationary object, like a bowling ball hanging from a rope, is the same as the bowling ball hitting you at 100mph
Spaceships and grains of matter is no different, and gravity does not change
Spaceships and grains of matter is no different, and gravity does not change
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Re: The aliens are silent because they're dead
You are avoiding my fucking question with arm waving misdirection.
Apologize immediately.
Apologize immediately.
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Re: The aliens are silent because they're dead
Accelerating a craft does not mean it is doomed. You just have to have a lot of expendable mass to take the hits, a shit ton of ice would work. Using h bombs as the driving force would be the greatest bang for the mass, so it’s theoretically possible to accelerate a huge space ship and protect it from impacts. Slowing it back down is the far bigger problem, but with enough h bombs you could reach another star in a reasonable amount of time, and have plenty of water when you get there.
The people starting off won’t live long enough, but their great grandkids will
The people starting off won’t live long enough, but their great grandkids will
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Re: The aliens are silent because they're dead
None of this is original, it’s been in a sci-fi story or three already, in various forms
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Re: The aliens are silent because they're dead
The secret knock might be launching multiple ships, like stages, each launched ship is already going very fast relatively speaking, but the ship doesn’t “know” it’s moving at high speed, so as it accelerates away it’s just accelerating from a rest state, then another one launched from it, and then another one, you could reach speeds enough to reach the nearest star in a 100 years or so.
But, slowing down is the real problem at that point
But, slowing down is the real problem at that point
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Re: The aliens are silent because they're dead
Since you have to turn the ship around to brake, now your giant ass steel plate you have been using for the h bombs to push you along is going to be taking the hits, and that’s a problem not solved
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Re: The aliens are silent because they're dead
Actually, I think that's possible. From the point of view of people on the spaceship, a very long journey could happen in very little time.gnome wrote: ↑Mon Oct 12, 2020 4:34 pmRight so my point being, is that an obstacle to my scheme of maintaining 1G and traveling so far from my own point of view, even if it's taking millenia from a stationary frame of reference?Anaxagoras wrote: ↑Mon Oct 12, 2020 2:20 pmThat would be the one that isn't moving. The mass doesn't really change from the perspective of people on the spaceship.gnome wrote: ↑Mon Oct 12, 2020 2:11 pmThat part I get--more the question of, which frame of reference most directly feels the problem of increasing mass requiring more force for acceleration?Anaxagoras wrote: ↑Mon Oct 12, 2020 12:46 pmFrom the outside? I assume you mean a stationary observer.
Rulers get shorter (and of course, everything else too, including the spaceship) in the direction of travel. And clocks run slower.
Of course, there are still very difficult, probably insurmountable, practical problems with this, but General Relativity doesn't prevent it in principle.
From our perspective back here on earth, a light year is a light year, but from the perspective of those on this imaginary spaceship, the distances to other stars effectively shrink as time slows down. They would not experience it at time slowing down, but as outside distances getting shorter. At least that's my layman's understanding of it.
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Re: The aliens are silent because they're dead
Day after day year after year your ice has been wearing away, but to slow down you can’t use ice against h bombs, they would destroy your mile thick shield, and you are fucked, shooting past your target at 1000 miles a second
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Re: The aliens are silent because they're dead
And that’s why the aliens are all dead
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Re: The aliens are silent because they're dead
Yeah, like I said. To stop again, you would need to spend as much time and distance decelerating as you did to accelerate in the first part of the trip.
A fool thinks himself to be wise, but a wise man knows himself to be a fool.
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Re: The aliens are silent because they're dead
Do I still gain the benefits of time dilation while decelerating?

"Ferris? It's not working. The miles aren't coming off, running it in reverse."

"Ferris? It's not working. The miles aren't coming off, running it in reverse."
"If fighting is sure to result in victory, then you must fight! Sun Tzu said that, and I'd say he knows a little bit more about fighting than you do, pal, because he invented it, and then he perfected it so that no living man could best him in the ring of honor. Then, he used his fight money to buy two of every animal on earth, and then he herded them onto a boat, and then he beat the crap out of every single one. And from that day forward any time a bunch of animals are together in one place it's called a zoo! (Beat) Unless it's a farm!"
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Re: The aliens are silent because they're dead
I believe that you would gradually revert to normal time as your velocity decreased.
A fool thinks himself to be wise, but a wise man knows himself to be a fool.
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Re: The aliens are silent because they're dead
Great then! I'm still confident that if we can get over the relativity hurdle the rest is a matter of innovation.
Even if only my descendants find out I made it back.
Even if only my descendants find out I made it back.
"If fighting is sure to result in victory, then you must fight! Sun Tzu said that, and I'd say he knows a little bit more about fighting than you do, pal, because he invented it, and then he perfected it so that no living man could best him in the ring of honor. Then, he used his fight money to buy two of every animal on earth, and then he herded them onto a boat, and then he beat the crap out of every single one. And from that day forward any time a bunch of animals are together in one place it's called a zoo! (Beat) Unless it's a farm!"
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Re: The aliens are silent because they're dead
Time does not change for an observer
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Re: The aliens are silent because they're dead
Just as the speed of light ( C ) does not change
No matter what your “motion” is, if you turn on a light the photons move away from you at C
No matter what your “motion” is, if you turn on a light the photons move away from you at C
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Re: The aliens are silent because they're dead
A fool thinks himself to be wise, but a wise man knows himself to be a fool.
William Shakespeare
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Re: The aliens are silent because they're dead
The aliens are silent because they've put us on ignore and have wished us into the cornfield.
The flash of light you saw in the sky was not a UFO. Swamp gas from a weather balloon was trapped in a thermal pocket and reflected the light from Venus.
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Re: The aliens are silent because they're dead
I can't be bothered to read the entire thread but I really, really, really believe that the reason no aliens have visited us is because we are first.
Somebody has to be.
Somebody has to be.
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Re: The aliens are silent because they're dead
The new world natives could have been explaining in 1491 that the reason the mythical people from across the sea haven't shown up, is because they are all dead
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Re: The aliens are silent because they're dead
They really should have had kids and some dogs in the pic
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