Chemists help please

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SquishyDave
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Chemists help please

Post by SquishyDave »

I was thinking making Strontium nitrate Sr(NO3)2 by combining nitric acid HNO3 and strontium carbonate SrCO3.

I was wondering what will be left over? Anything toxic?

So

HNO3 + SrCO3 = Sr(NO3)2 + something I don't know

The by product I am guessing will be made up of H C and O in some form, but don't forget I won't mix them in a vacuum, but in earths atmosphere.

Any clue whether I should worry about death from the fumes?
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Post by Loon »

At first glance, it looks like the byproducts would be water and carbon dioxide. But I don't know how endothermic or exothermic the reaction might be. In fact, there's a lot I don't know about it. But if noone else answers, at least you get a reply from someone w/ a chem degree. For what that's worth.
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Post by SquishyDave »

Thanks, I only did highschool chemistry, but I figured out if you make 2 nitric acid molecules for every one strontium carbonate there is exactly enough left over to make one water and one carbon dioxide molecule, but I don't wanna trust chemistry I took like 9 years ago with my fully working non-smoking lungs, I would much rather trust the word of a stranger. :mrgreen:
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LibraryFox
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Post by LibraryFox »

Well, if you're looking at the basic reaction, those ions aren't going to break up.
You'd have SrCO3 + 2(HNO3) <=> Sr(NO3)2 + 2(HCO3)
But, the problem is that it won't drive the way you want. The SrCO3 wont substantially disolve in solution, so you're likely to end up with what you started with. You need to use something like Magnesium Nitrate because MgCO3 is even less soluble than SrCO3. This will drive things the way you want them to go.

Edited to add somelreferences:
http://www.newton.dep.anl.gov/askasci/c ... m00209.htm Ask a Scientist archive question about SrCO3 and BaNo3

http://www.northland.cc.mn.us/Chemistry ... oducts.htm A handy table of Solubility products for a number of ionic pairs.
Last edited by LibraryFox on Thu Jun 17, 2004 7:07 am, edited 2 times in total.
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SquishyDave
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Post by SquishyDave »

DOH!

Well thanks for that, maybe you might know Fox, if I put some SrCO3 on a fire, will it turn the flame red? And can I do this safely? That's really my main goal from this, but I don't really need Sr(NO2)3 if the other one will do what I want fine.
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Post by LibraryFox »

I think it should work fine as is.
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Post by Hamish »

LibraryFox wrote:Well, if you're looking at the basic reaction, those ions aren't going to break up.
Are you sure? I was always taught that "acid plus carbonate gives CO2" (part of a mnemonic rhyme).

I've been teaching 12 year old kids that nitric acid plus calcium carbonate gives CO2 and water:

CaCO3 + 2(HNO3) => C(NO3)2 + H2O + CO2

(Acid rain reaction with limestone/marble).

Now I only did chemistry to A-level but shouldn't strontium be chemically similar to calcium, being one place below in the same group of the periodic table?

The Strontium carbonate doesn't have to dissolve for the reaction does it?

Have I got the wrong end of the stick?
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Post by LibraryFox »

I wasn't even thinking about he acid situation. Good Call.
Nitric should drive the reaction forward as Carbon Dioxide vents from the reaction. Lower pressures will drop the solubility of the Caron Dioxide, and drive the reaction further to the right though, so near vaccuum is actually useful.
But... I'd still just use the Stronium Carbonate and skip having to handle Nitric Acid. Acetic acid should do fine or Sulferic if you need to produce a stronger solution.
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SquishyDave
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Post by SquishyDave »

Yeah, I'll see how pretty the Strontium Carbonate is in fire, then if it sux I will start throwing acid around.
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Post by Rolfe »

PM Geni. He's studying Chemistry at uni right now.

Rolfe.
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Geni
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Post by Geni »

I'm not arguing with whats here. I suspose If you really wanted to know what would happen you could dig out some tables but since I can't see any reason why Strontium Carbonate shouldn't work as well as Strontium nitrate (I suspect that for best results you want strontium chloride).

Video of strontium chloride:

http://turing.bear.uncw.edu/iLumina/par ... sp?rid=654
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Bruce
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Re: Chemists help please

Post by Bruce »

SquishyDave wrote:I was thinking making Strontium nitrate Sr(NO3)2 by combining nitric acid HNO3 and strontium carbonate SrCO3.

I was wondering what will be left over? Anything toxic?

So

HNO3 + SrCO3 = Sr(NO3)2 + something I don't know

The by product I am guessing will be made up of H C and O in some form, but don't forget I won't mix them in a vacuum, but in earths atmosphere.
Chemist to the rescue. I'm always late for these things.

My question would be:
Why don't you just buy strontium nitrate? It's about as cheap as strontium carbonate anyway.

What is your concentration of strontium carbonate and nitric acid? If you balance the equation and add one molar equivalent of each, you will get a solution of carbonic acid, strontium ions, and nitrate ions. If you heat it up, you will drive off carbon dioxide, leaving the solution of strontium nitrate. If you want the pure compound, you would then boil off the water.

Seems like a lot of trouble for stontium nitrate crystals. Just buy it, dude.

It's the strontium ions that make the red flame, not the anions, so if it's the red flame you want, just burn your stronium carbonate.

Try some calcium chloride for a brilliant dark orange!
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SquishyDave
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Re: Chemists help please

Post by SquishyDave »

Bruce wrote: Chemist to the rescue. I'm always late for these things.

My question would be:
Why don't you just buy strontium nitrate? It's about as cheap as strontium carbonate anyway.

What is your concentration of strontium carbonate and nitric acid? If you balance the equation and add one molar equivalent of each, you will get a solution of carbonic acid, strontium ions, and nitrate ions. If you heat it up, you will drive off carbon dioxide, leaving the solution of strontium nitrate. If you want the pure compound, you would then boil off the water.

Seems like a lot of trouble for stontium nitrate crystals. Just buy it, dude.

It's the strontium ions that make the red flame, not the anions, so if it's the red flame you want, just burn your stronium carbonate.

Try some calcium chloride for a brilliant dark orange!
Why don't I just buy strontium nitrate? Well it turns out I may not need to, as you say I just need the strontium, but where oh where do I go to buy these chemicals? Where can I get calcium chloride for pretty dark orange? Where can I buy copper something to get green? what other chemicals can I buy to make the flame bright yellow? As a not-chemist, I may it find it harder to get the chemicals I want than you can. Unless you know something I don't?
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Bruce
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Re: Chemists help please

Post by Bruce »

SquishyDave wrote:
Bruce wrote: Why don't I just buy strontium nitrate? Well it turns out I may not need to, as you say I just need the strontium, but where oh where do I go to buy these chemicals? Where can I get calcium chloride for pretty dark orange? Where can I buy copper something to get green? what other chemicals can I buy to make the flame bright yellow? As a not-chemist, I may it find it harder to get the chemicals I want than you can. Unless you know something I don't?
Where did you get the strontium carbonate? Maybe you know something I don't. I'm not sure if Aldrich sells to private individuals. I doubt it. Here are some common, off-the-shelf stuff you can buy to make pretty colors:

Muriatic acid: it's actually hydrochloric acid. You can get it at hardware stores in the paint section. It will dissolve most metals.

Rock Salt: actually calcium chloride, bright orange
Copper: dissolve in concentrated nitric acid, dilute, drive off the nitrates with hydrochoric, then boil away the chlorides while continually replenishing with water. Then boil away the water. You'll get copper chloride - greenish yellow
Salt substitue: Usually potassium chloride - purple
Vitamin/mineral suppliments: You can get iron - greenish, and probably magnesium- yellow?
Table salt: sodium, orange
Other metals that I'm not sure you can get at the store but make cool colors:
Barium, molybdenum, cobalt, manganese, tungsten

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Skeptoid
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Post by Skeptoid »

Calcium chloride is found in many ice melting products.

You can buy copper wire by the foot at a hardware store; wad up 10 or 20 feet of it and throw it on the fire.

Strontium nitrate is a strong oxidizer and is corrosive. It will burn your skin or other areas of contact. It is also a respiratory irritant. I wouldn't mess around with it.
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Post by SquishyDave »

I was told strontium carbonate is used in ceramics, so an art supply shop would have it, I haven't tried to buy it yet though.

I tried iodized table salt, and it didn't do anything, I don't think. I will re test.

Rock salt eh, that one was already suggested to me, but I haven't had a chance to get it yet.

I will see how I go with some of these. Looks like a trip to the hardware shop is call for. I will just try putting the copper wire on the fire, I won't try the acid thing, besides which I don't have any acid.

If I can make pretty flames without using acid I will. It seems safer.

In Australia, we don't have ice, so we don't really have any ice melting products for sale. And here we buy copper wire by the metre :mrgreen:
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Bruce
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Post by Bruce »

The fire you are using is probably already orange because wood already has sodium in it. To see the orange color, you have to start with a clean blue flame, like from a blow torch.

I seriously doubt that you will see any color from metallic copper. It's the valence shell electrons in ionic metals that cause the colors. If you can find some copper that has corroded, you would have a better chance. Look for some corroded copper pipes or find a copper statue. Scrape off some of the green copper oxide and give it a go.

I wonder what a Centrum tablet would look like if thrown in a fire. That has all kinds of ionic metals in it. I don't know if you have Centrum in Australia, but you should have some kind of multi-vitamin tablet.
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Post by Skeptoid »

Bruce wrote:I seriously doubt that you will see any color from metallic copper.
Sure you can. I do it all the time. Copper wire quickly corrodes in the heat of the fire. Best results are obtained when the wire is in contact with the glowing embers of a campfire. Stranded wire like lamp cord also works better than solid wire of the same guage.
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Post by SquishyDave »

We have centrum here, I will see about giving that a go.

Stranded copper wire I will certainly try.
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Post by Bruce »

Skeptoid wrote:
Bruce wrote:I seriously doubt that you will see any color from metallic copper.
Sure you can. I do it all the time. Copper wire quickly corrodes in the heat of the fire. Best results are obtained when the wire is in contact with the glowing embers of a campfire. Stranded wire like lamp cord also works better than solid wire of the same guage.
Cool! Didn't know it could oxidize that easily. Learn something new everyday.