Academic scientists' dropout

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Witness
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Academic scientists' dropout

Post by Witness » Wed Dec 12, 2018 12:24 am

'Dropout' rate for academic scientists has risen sharply in past 50 years, IU study finds

BLOOMINGTON, Ind. -- Half of the people pursuing careers as scientists at higher education institutions will drop out of the field after five years, according to a new analysis from researchers at Indiana University Bloomington.

That number contrasts sharply with the departure rate of scientists in the 1960s, when a much higher fraction spent their full careers in academia. Back then, it took 35 years for half of the people entering the field at the same time to drop out.

The statistics come from a study published today in the journal of the Proceedings of the National Academy of Sciences that tracked more than 100,000 scientific careers over 50 years to also reveal a steadily growing "temporary workforce" of lab technicians, research associates, postdoctoral researchers and other supporting scientists.

"Between 1960 and 2010, we found the number of scientists who spent their entire career in academia as supporting scientists -- rather than a faculty scientist -- has risen from 25 percent to 60 percent," said Staša Milojević, an associate professor in the IU School of Informatics, Computing and Engineering, who led the study. "There seems to be a broad trend across fields in science: It's increasingly a revolving door."
https://news.iu.edu/stories/2018/12/iub ... years.html

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Abdul Alhazred
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Re: Academic scientists' dropout

Post by Abdul Alhazred » Wed Dec 12, 2018 12:48 am

Hostile work environment, perhaps?
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ed
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Re: Academic scientists' dropout

Post by ed » Wed Dec 12, 2018 1:14 am

I left academia in 1975 to go to work in the ad biz. The reasons were sorta simple. I looked and saw that starting salaries were horrid and that one could not look forward to glittering prizes. I was beginning to come out of the hippie closet to embrace my avaricious self. I realized that I like "things" and that I wouldn't get them if I followed my course at the time. Another thing was the peripatetic nature of the profession. 7 years? No tenure? Hop a goddamn bus to Cincinnati. 7 years? No tenure? Hop a goddamn bus to Ft. Worth. Not for me.

I loved the work but the job sucked.
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Re: Academic scientists' dropout

Post by sparks » Wed Dec 12, 2018 3:22 am

Pursuit of science and academia doesn't pay. You've really got to love what you're doing. 'Cause you ain't gonna do it for money.

Strange how we owe our current technical civilization to folks who didn't give a shit about money.



Not that you sold out ed, hell, I'd have done the same bloody thing myself. I just opted for a middle ground. Something I could live with in terms of both pay and liking what I was doing.
You can lead them to knowledge, but you can't make them think.

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Re: Academic scientists' dropout

Post by Anaxagoras » Wed Dec 12, 2018 3:25 am

ed wrote:
Wed Dec 12, 2018 1:14 am
Another thing was the peripatetic nature of the profession.
Peripatetic is a good word. Raises the tenor or the forum. :figamagee:
A fool thinks himself to be wise, but a wise man knows himself to be a fool.
William Shakespeare

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Re: Academic scientists' dropout

Post by xouper » Wed Dec 12, 2018 3:57 am

sparks wrote:
Wed Dec 12, 2018 3:22 am
Strange how we owe our current technical civilization to folks who didn't give a shit about money.
Bell Labs?
Thomas Edison?
Jack Kilby & Robert Noyce?
Wright Brothers?
Nikola Tesla?
etc
etc

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Re: Academic scientists' dropout

Post by sparks » Wed Dec 12, 2018 4:06 am

Those are interlopers! :)

Interlopers who stole other peoples work. MY WORK!!

No. wait.

Seriously, Bell made lots of money, no question about that. Did Edison? Don't know Kilby and Noyce. But did the Wright Brothers ever pay off their debts? And Tesla was a fucking goofball, not a True Scientist(tm).

Thinking more of folks like Maxwell, Einstein, Bohr, Planck, etc. who were merely wondering about the nature of reality.
You can lead them to knowledge, but you can't make them think.

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Re: Academic scientists' dropout

Post by Witness » Wed Dec 12, 2018 4:09 am

Einstein held a patent for a new kind of (acoustically powered?) refrigerator.

Greedy! (Where is that unmentionable Abdul cartoon?) :x

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Re: Academic scientists' dropout

Post by sparks » Wed Dec 12, 2018 4:19 am

By and large, wouldn't you all agree that it's the scientists who find things out about reality and make very little money comparatively with the folks, the engineers, who pick it up and figure out how to exploit the knowledge (for good or evil, of course)?
You can lead them to knowledge, but you can't make them think.

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Re: Academic scientists' dropout

Post by xouper » Wed Dec 12, 2018 6:11 am

sparks wrote:
Wed Dec 12, 2018 3:22 am
Strange how we owe our current technical civilization to folks who didn't give a shit about money.
xouper wrote:
Wed Dec 12, 2018 3:57 am
Bell Labs?
Thomas Edison?
Jack Kilby & Robert Noyce?
Wright Brothers?
Nikola Tesla?
etc
etc
sparks wrote:
Wed Dec 12, 2018 4:06 am
Seriously, Bell made lots of money, no question about that. Did Edison? Don't know Kilby and Noyce. But did the Wright Brothers ever pay off their debts? And Tesla was a fucking goofball, not a True Scientist(tm).
I was addressing your comment (in yellow) about those who gave shit about money, not whether they became filthy rich.

Tesla may have been a goofball, but he gave us alternating current induction motors, ac power generation and transmission, remote radio control, among other things.

sparks wrote:
Wed Dec 12, 2018 3:22 am
Don't know Kilby and Noyce.
You have not earned your username. :wink:


sparks wrote:
Wed Dec 12, 2018 3:22 am
Thinking more of folks like Maxwell, Einstein, Bohr, Planck, etc. who were merely wondering about the nature of reality.
None of which were necessary for the inventions by the people I mentioned. Except possibly for the transistor, and even that one is debatable. Perhaps more importantly, if not for the engineers, none of what folks like Maxwell, Einstein, Bohr, Planck discovered would have had any effect on our daily lives. Theoretical science is a worthy pursuit, for sure, but it is applied science (as practiced by money seeking inventors) that we "owe our current technical civilization".

As always, Your Mileage May Vary™.

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ed
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Re: Academic scientists' dropout

Post by ed » Wed Dec 12, 2018 12:36 pm

ed wrote:
Wed Dec 12, 2018 1:14 am
I left academia in 1975 to go to work in the ad biz. The reasons were sorta simple. I looked and saw that starting salaries were horrid and that one could not look forward to glittering prizes. I was beginning to come out of the hippie closet to embrace my avaricious self. I realized that I like "things" and that I wouldn't get them if I followed my course at the time. Another thing was the peripatetic nature of the profession. 7 years? No tenure? Hop a goddamn bus to Cincinnati. 7 years? No tenure? Hop a goddamn bus to Ft. Worth. Not for me.

I loved the work but the job sucked.
There is a little "here's the rest of the story" piece to this. There was a budget freeze/salary thing in 1974 I think. The professors were up in arms about not getting raises. The precise nature of the event escapes me. Point was I remember them in the hall of the science building being very very avaricious. They refused to teach for a while. Point is that their actions were certainly not like selfless paragons in search of wisdom. Down right hypocritical was the way it seemed.

It was a witches brew for me I think.
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Re: Academic scientists' dropout

Post by Abdul Alhazred » Wed Dec 12, 2018 1:40 pm

Witness wrote:
Wed Dec 12, 2018 4:09 am
Einstein held a patent for a new kind of (acoustically powered?) refrigerator.

Greedy! (Where is that unmentionable Abdul cartoon?) :x
Einstein and Dirac teamed up. It used water as a working fluid instead of ammonia.

FreonTM made the scene before they could market it properly.

Just think. If it weren't for FreonTM, Einstein and Dirac would be famous as industrialists.

And the Nazis would get the bomb first.
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Re: Academic scientists' dropout

Post by Anaxagoras » Thu Dec 13, 2018 12:11 am

Famously Einstein's "day job" was as a patent examiner before he got famous. So from that perhaps it's not so odd that he would patent something himself.
A fool thinks himself to be wise, but a wise man knows himself to be a fool.
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Re: Academic scientists' dropout

Post by Witness » Thu Dec 13, 2018 12:31 am

Abdul Alhazred wrote:
Wed Dec 12, 2018 1:40 pm
Einstein and Dirac teamed up.
Szilard, not Dirac:

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Re: Academic scientists' dropout

Post by sparks » Thu Dec 13, 2018 12:57 am

xouper wrote:
Wed Dec 12, 2018 6:11 am
sparks wrote:
Wed Dec 12, 2018 3:22 am
Strange how we owe our current technical civilization to folks who didn't give a shit about money.
xouper wrote:
Wed Dec 12, 2018 3:57 am
Bell Labs?
Thomas Edison?
Jack Kilby & Robert Noyce?
Wright Brothers?
Nikola Tesla?
etc
etc
sparks wrote:
Wed Dec 12, 2018 4:06 am
Seriously, Bell made lots of money, no question about that. Did Edison? Don't know Kilby and Noyce. But did the Wright Brothers ever pay off their debts? And Tesla was a fucking goofball, not a True Scientist(tm).
I was addressing your comment (in yellow) about those who gave shit about money, not whether they became filthy rich.

Tesla may have been a goofball, but he gave us alternating current induction motors, ac power generation and transmission, remote radio control, among other things.

sparks wrote:
Wed Dec 12, 2018 3:22 am
Don't know Kilby and Noyce.
You have not earned your username. :wink:


sparks wrote:
Wed Dec 12, 2018 3:22 am
Thinking more of folks like Maxwell, Einstein, Bohr, Planck, etc. who were merely wondering about the nature of reality.
None of which were necessary for the inventions by the people I mentioned. Except possibly for the transistor, and even that one is debatable. Perhaps more importantly, if not for the engineers, none of what folks like Maxwell, Einstein, Bohr, Planck discovered would have had any effect on our daily lives. Theoretical science is a worthy pursuit, for sure, but it is applied science (as practiced by money seeking inventors) that we "owe our current technical civilization".

As always, Your Mileage May Vary™.
Cannot agree with you. Let's leave it at that.
You can lead them to knowledge, but you can't make them think.

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Re: Academic scientists' dropout

Post by xouper » Thu Dec 13, 2018 2:27 am

sparks wrote:
Thu Dec 13, 2018 12:57 am
Cannot agree with you. Let's leave it at that.
Not a problem. You made a good case. We simply have a difference of opinion who deserves more credit for our current technical civilization. No big deal. :)