Natural selection has collateral damage.

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Abdul Alhazred
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Natural selection has collateral damage.

Post by Abdul Alhazred » Fri Feb 15, 2019 7:34 pm

gnome wrote:
Fri Feb 15, 2019 5:33 pm
Unfortunately "natural selection" has collateral damage. ...
Inspired by but really unrelated to a comment by gnome in another thread (follow the little arrow).

Think of the evolution from Ape to ManTM.

Unlike my Intelligent Icky Design examples every little increment confers obvious immediate advantage to the individual.

Every little improvement in walking upright, every little improvement in ability to handle tools, every little improvement in ability to make tools, etc.

And yet it has the side effects of producing a creature that has the ability to know it is dying, see ghosts, agonize over existence, invent Nobodaddy, etc.

:)
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Re: Natural selection has collateral damage.

Post by Witness » Sat Feb 16, 2019 3:03 am

You're under the illusion that life is somehow meant to be enjoyed.

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Re: Natural selection has collateral damage.

Post by Abdul Alhazred » Sat Feb 16, 2019 3:05 am

Witness wrote:
Sat Feb 16, 2019 3:03 am
You're under the illusion that life is somehow meant to be enjoyed.
Or understood. :BigGrin3:
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Re: Natural selection has collateral damage.

Post by Witness » Sat Feb 16, 2019 3:15 am

↑ Indeed.

If some stupid molecules hadn't started reproducing in the primeval ooze, there would be no suffering.

Collateral benefit: and nobody to wonder about it.

Win/win. :BigGrin3:


[Typo corrected.]
Last edited by Witness on Mon Feb 18, 2019 2:06 am, edited 1 time in total.

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Re: Natural selection has collateral damage.

Post by sparks » Sat Feb 16, 2019 4:50 pm

We're on our way back to the ooze. Hence, and end to suffering, which after all, was just an illusion. Like all the other shit.
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Re: Natural selection has collateral damage.

Post by Anaxagoras » Mon Feb 18, 2019 2:04 am

Evolution has collateral damage. Sure, absolutely.

We pay a price for having big brains. Like, human babies are completely helpless had dependent on their parents for much longer than animal babies. We are not as strong as our cousins, the chimpanzees and the gorillas. I do think that animals suffer, however. Not quite in the same ways we do, but they suffer.
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Re: Natural selection has collateral damage.

Post by Witness » Mon Feb 18, 2019 2:28 am

↑ Most animals never see their parents.

And yet they "know" what to do. (E. g. parasitic wasps who hunt spiders, sting them in exactly the right places to keep them alive but helpless, and the larvae feeding on essential organs last. Which incidentally proves gOD's benevolence for hIS creation…)

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Re: Natural selection has collateral damage.

Post by Abdul Alhazred » Mon Feb 18, 2019 10:46 am

Witness wrote:
Mon Feb 18, 2019 2:28 am
↑ Most animals never see their parents.

And yet they "know" what to do. (E. g. parasitic wasps who hunt spiders, sting them in exactly the right places to keep them alive but helpless, and the larvae feeding on essential organs last. Which incidentally proves gOD's benevolence for hIS creation…)
The perfect example of Intelligent Icky Design.

Just too icky to have evolved naturally, unlike our godlike selves. :coolspecs:
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Re: Natural selection has collateral damage.

Post by Witness » Mon Feb 18, 2019 11:05 pm

Abdul Alhazred wrote:
Mon Feb 18, 2019 10:46 am
Just too icky to have evolved naturally, unlike our godlike selves. :coolspecs:
I'd prefer then not to meet the designer's designer. :|

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Re: Natural selection has collateral damage.

Post by Abdul Alhazred » Mon Feb 18, 2019 11:33 pm

Bear in mind the concept of "collateral damage" is a value judgement. :mrgreen:
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Re: Natural selection has collateral damage.

Post by sparks » Tue Feb 19, 2019 12:01 am

But you insist on using same in a scientific context. Knock that shit off. If you please. :)
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Re: Natural selection has collateral damage.

Post by Abdul Alhazred » Tue Feb 19, 2019 2:58 am

"Icky" is also a value judgement, yet it is built into the structure of the universe.

Evidences, my friend. :coolspecs:
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Re: Natural selection has collateral damage.

Post by Anaxagoras » Tue Feb 19, 2019 4:20 am

sparks wrote:
Tue Feb 19, 2019 12:01 am
But you insist on using same in a scientific context. Knock that shit off. If you please. :)
True. None of this is really "science".

Nature doesn't care if something is "icky" if it gets the job done.

Why do dogs sometimes eat their own poop? Who the fuck knows. I'm guessing that the question has been asked and studied by gen-u-ine scientists, but I'd rather not think about it too much myself, because it's icky.
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Re: Natural selection has collateral damage.

Post by sparks » Tue Feb 19, 2019 5:14 am

That is why you are not a True Scientist(tm) :)

https://www.google.com/search?client=fi ... wn+shit%3F

One must face the facts of this goddamned mess called life and get on with it regardless of the 'icky', dipshit. :)
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Re: Natural selection has collateral damage.

Post by Abdul Alhazred » Tue Feb 19, 2019 9:24 am

Why do you hate evidences? :poutpout:
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Re: Natural selection has collateral damage.

Post by Anaxagoras » Thu Feb 21, 2019 12:25 pm

The Surprising Reason Zebras Have Stripes

Can you guess? Maybe the word "surprising" is a clue.
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Re: Natural selection has collateral damage.

Post by Anaxagoras » Fri Apr 05, 2019 7:49 am

Another transitional species discovered:

Ancient four-legged whale thrived both in sea and on land

Image
WASHINGTON – Scientists have unearthed fossils in a coastal desert of southern Peru of a four-legged whale that thrived both in the sea and on land about 43 million years ago in a discovery that illuminates a pivotal stage in early cetacean evolution.

The 13-foot-long mammal, named Peregocetus pacificus, represents a crucial intermediate step before whales became fully adapted to a marine existence, the scientists said on Thursday.
You've got animals like the Hippopotamus that can move on land if it needs to but usually prefers to be in the water most of the time. I suspect this was a bit like that. Eventually it ended up spending its whole life in the ocean, so the legs turned into fins or disappeared.
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Re: Natural selection has collateral damage.

Post by Doctor X » Fri Apr 05, 2019 8:05 am

THEN Y R THEIR WALES?!!1!!!!

EXPAIN THAT!!11!!!

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Re: Natural selection has collateral damage.

Post by Witness » Fri Apr 05, 2019 11:29 am

Snipping out a lot:
Anaxagoras wrote:
Fri Apr 05, 2019 7:49 am
The 13-foot-long mammal, named Peregocetus pacificus, represents a crucial intermediate step before whales became fully adapted to a marine existence, the scientists said on Thursday.
It's not "crucial", or only in a very general sense, as whales' ancestry is already well known. The original paper says it nicely:
Summary

Cetaceans originated in south Asia more than 50 million years ago (mya), from a small quadrupedal artiodactyl ancestor. Amphibious whales gradually dispersed westward along North Africa and arrived in North America before 41.2 mya. However, fossil evidence on when, through which pathway, and under which locomotion abilities these early whales reached the New World is fragmentary and contentious. Peregocetus pacificus gen. et sp. nov. is a new protocetid cetacean discovered in middle Eocene (42.6 mya) marine deposits of coastal Peru, which constitutes the first indisputable quadrupedal whale record from the Pacific Ocean and the Southern Hemisphere. Preserving the mandibles and most of the postcranial skeleton, this unique four-limbed whale bore caudal vertebrae with bifurcated and anteroposteriorly expanded transverse processes, like those of beavers and otters, suggesting a significant contribution of the tail during swimming. The fore- and hind-limb proportions roughly similar to geologically older quadrupedal whales from India and Pakistan, the pelvis being firmly attached to the sacrum, an insertion fossa for the round ligament on the femur, and the retention of small hooves with a flat anteroventral tip at fingers and toes indicate that Peregocetus was still capable of standing and even walking on land. This new record from the southeastern Pacific demonstrates that early quadrupedal whales crossed the South Atlantic and nearly attained a circum-equatorial distribution with a combination of terrestrial and aquatic locomotion abilities less than 10 million years after their origin and probably before a northward dispersal toward higher North American latitudes.
https://www.cell.com/current-biology/fu ... 19)30220-9

So it's mostly about "how did they get to the New World?"


A family tree from the same paper (lots of "transitional species"):

Image

(Artiodactyls, BTW, are the even-hoofed beasties: "The roughly 220 land-based even-toed ungulate species include pigs, peccaries, hippopotamuses, camels, llamas, alpacas, mouse deer, deer, giraffes, antelopes, sheep, goats, and cattle." They digest cellulose in their chambered stomachs, while their uneven-hoofed cousins (horses, rhinos, &c.) use their intestines for that. (From Wikipedia))


I think the press likes the "transitional species" because creationists are convinced that "show me the transitional species!" is a terribly clever argument. When you do that it of course creates two new gaps (sadly, we don't know everything) and they can snigger some more.

And gOD is in the gaps, as we know. :mrgreen:


All that being pedantically said, I see no "collateral damage" here. But to contribute to the "icky" part à la Abdul, hippos have a worm living happily under their eyelids. Blargh!

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Re: Natural selection has collateral damage.

Post by Abdul Alhazred » Fri Apr 05, 2019 10:22 pm

Not sure if this is the right thread, but it doesn't need its own thread and it has something to do with natural selection. :notsure:

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