MAKE THE LITTLE BASTARDS SUFFER! Science now says it's possible.

We are the Borg.
User avatar
Abdul Alhazred
Posts: 78037
Joined: Mon Jun 07, 2004 1:33 pm
Title: Yes, that one.
Location: Chicago

MAKE THE LITTLE BASTARDS SUFFER! Science now says it's possible.

Post by Abdul Alhazred » Sat Jul 13, 2019 12:17 pm

Insects feel persistent pain after injury, evidence suggests
Science Daily
Scientists have known insects experience something like pain since 2003, but new research published today from Associate Professor Greg Neely and colleagues at the University of Sydney proves for the first time that insects also experience chronic pain that lasts long after an initial injury has healed.

...


As Bill Nye the science guy once said (not a scientist but plays one on TV an has a way with words) --

Image Jesus titty fucking Christ I just fucking love fucking science and shit. :coolspecs:

The bowtie is an especially inspired touch. Very scientisty. :mrgreen:
Image "If I turn in a sicko, will I get a reward?"

"Yes! A BIG REWARD!" ====> Click here to turn in a sicko
The arc of the moral universe bends towards chaos.
People who believe God or History are on their side provide the chaos.

User avatar
Rob Lister
Posts: 21187
Joined: Sun Jul 18, 2004 7:15 pm
Title: Incipient toppler
Location: Swimming in Lake Ed

Re: MAKE THE LITTLE BASTARDS SUFFER! Science now says it's possible.

Post by Rob Lister » Sat Jul 13, 2019 4:17 pm

...long after an initial injury has healed
I didn't even know insects could heal.

It appears I was mistaken.
https://www.sciencenewsforstudents.org/ ... oken-bones

Beware, the scientist in that link has, with gleeful malice aforethought, broken the legs of thousands of critters.

User avatar
Anaxagoras
Posts: 25383
Joined: Wed Mar 19, 2008 5:45 am
Location: Yokohama/Tokyo, Japan

Re: MAKE THE LITTLE BASTARDS SUFFER! Science now says it's possible.

Post by Anaxagoras » Wed Jul 17, 2019 4:37 am

So insects feel pain too.

That's kind of horrifying if you dwell on it. Mother nature is horrifying.

It makes perfect sense though, as a survival adaptation. The fact that we feel pain and the pain is unpleasant makes us more likely to survive. To avoid things that cause pain.

There's a rare condition in which some people are born without sensitivity to pain. They tend to die at a young age. This proves the survival advantage of pain.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Congenita ... ty_to_pain
Congenital insensitivity to pain (CIP), also known as congenital analgesia, is one or more rare conditions in which a person cannot feel (and has never felt) physical pain.[1] . . .
Because feeling physical pain is vital for survival, CIP is an extremely dangerous condition.[1] It is common for people with the condition to die in childhood due to injuries or illnesses going unnoticed.[1][2] Burn injuries are among the more common injuries.[2]
Touching a hot stove does not hurt. Thus, the child does not learn to avoid that sort of behavior.

I don't know how much of insect behavior is pure instinct and if they ever really "learn" anything through experience the way we do. Still, seems like pain would be a useful stimulus.
A fool thinks himself to be wise, but a wise man knows himself to be a fool.
William Shakespeare

User avatar
Doctor X
Posts: 71302
Joined: Fri Jun 04, 2004 8:09 pm
Title: Collective Messiah
Location: Your Mom

Re: MAKE THE LITTLE BASTARDS SUFFER! Science now says it's possible.

Post by Doctor X » Wed Jul 17, 2019 6:02 am

Anaxagoras wrote:
Wed Jul 17, 2019 4:37 am
So insects feel pain too.
To "feel" it they would have to be conscious. Even eukaryotes have nociception.
That's kind of horrifying if you dwell on it. Mother nature is horrifying.

There's a rare condition in which some people are born without sensitivity to pain. They tend to die at a young age. This proves the survival advantage of pain.
See poorly controlled diabetics. They can fail to suffer the agony of defeet, but succumb to the sequeli.

Too long ago on a Board Far Far Not in the Japanese Original, I dealt with a truly odious Cunt who tried to justify horrible things by declaring that "suffering" as in feeling and understanding pain is "necessary to be human." He was trying to skirt around the recognition that some suffering is "unjust" between bouts of celebrating Hitler and blaming the Jews and gays for AIDS while being openly homosexual. Last I looked, he got tossed in jail since that is "what they do" when you try to attack a Jewish school.

Not so much for him but to those eating popcorn throughout the Upside Down, I explained that with a very tiny lesion, usually resulting from an infarct from a very wee distal capillary deciding to visit Disney World, you can remove a persons ability to suffer from pain. They feel the pain as they always did.

They understand it and recognize the pain as pain as they always experienced it.

They just no longer suffer from it.

He went into a Tinkerbellesque incontinent tirade over that, trying to deny it in the face of the actual SCIENCE that says otherwise.

I could have used the odd congenital insensitivity, and some do live into adulthood and beyond provided they take care, but I wanted to attack his idiotic claim that suffering is necessary.

The pain pathways are tremendously complex, and the ones you find in most non-specialist textbooks, are over simplified. There is, as you suggest, huge evolutionary advantages to a system that helps you avoid injury and lethal situations. This is why, ignored by a lot of basic text books, a lot of pathways go to various brain stem nuclei. As one specialist put it, "pain is the language of the ascending reticular activating system." Why it is pain that can bring someone to consciousness and is sometimes necessary to maintain it: true "stupor."

There are also attention reflexes not necessarily based on pain but on noise. You see this in the creepy "coma vigil" where a someone in a permanent vegetative state will turn and look at the door when opened. This gives you the "he looks at me!" problem from family. Wait a bit, and the patient ceases tracking.

Which is why I asked if an insect is conscious. The unconscious do not suffer pain because they cannot process it.

Image

--J.D.
Mob of the Mean: Free beanie, cattle-prod and Charley Fan Club!
"Doctor X is just treating you the way he treats everyone--as subhuman crap too dumb to breathe in after you breathe out."--Don
DocX: FTW.--sparks
"Doctor X wins again."--Pyrrho
"Never sorry to make a racist Fucktard cry."--His Humble MagNIfIcence
"It was the criticisms of Doc X, actually, that let me see more clearly how far the hypocrisy had gone."--clarsct
"I'd leave it up to Doctor X who has been a benevolent tyrant so far."--Grammatron
"Indeed you are a river to your people.
Shit. That's going to end up in your sig."--Pyrrho
"Try a twelve step program and accept Doctor X as your High Power."--asthmatic camel
"just like Doc X said." --gnome

ImageWS CHAMPIONS X4!!!! ImageNBA CHAMPIONS!! Stanley Cup!Image SB CHAMPIONS X6!!!!!! Image

User avatar
Anaxagoras
Posts: 25383
Joined: Wed Mar 19, 2008 5:45 am
Location: Yokohama/Tokyo, Japan

Re: MAKE THE LITTLE BASTARDS SUFFER! Science now says it's possible.

Post by Anaxagoras » Wed Jul 17, 2019 6:27 am

Well, that's a good point I guess. We don't really know whether an insect is conscious like we are, or if it can suffer like we do. Perhaps the small size of its brain suggests not. I don't know. I imagine that the closer you get to a human, large mammals for example, the more likely they are to be conscious and experience things in a similar way to how we do.
A fool thinks himself to be wise, but a wise man knows himself to be a fool.
William Shakespeare

User avatar
Doctor X
Posts: 71302
Joined: Fri Jun 04, 2004 8:09 pm
Title: Collective Messiah
Location: Your Mom

Re: MAKE THE LITTLE BASTARDS SUFFER! Science now says it's possible.

Post by Doctor X » Wed Jul 17, 2019 7:25 am

As far as I am aware, there is no evidence that insects display conscious activity. All behaviors are reflexive including ones that can be learned. So you can condition flies, for example, to stick out their . . . whatever . . . for something sweet when matched to another stimulus: classic conditioning. This behavior will extinct.

The thing with consciousness is there appears to be a "yes or no" between whether one is or is not, but "is" contains a rather broad range of levels. So a minimally conscious is able to react purposefully to internal/external stimuli. Yay. There is a huge difference between a non-reflexive grimace and leaping out of the bed and beating you with a large fish.

So how does one test that? I am sure that $$$ will go into functional MRI of, say, YOUR MOM!!!!!, to see if areas of the brain activate similar to humans. Yay. What does that mean? You are still stuck with proving that at behavior is not a reflexive reaction. Nevertheless, Wiki gives a nice summary of the Mirror Test. One can still try to argue for reflex as well as the limitations of the test. You will note that one issue is the presence or absence of a neocortex: can an animal be conscious without one? Humans cannot, though you have to globally "turn off" pretty much the whole thing or disconnect it from the ascending reticular activating system.

That does not apply to birds, scallops, fruit bats, or breakfast cereals.

As you can see, it remains a very difficult problem since we, as individuals {I'm not!} Shhh! can only think and perceive in our own minds. A lot of bad science derives from researchers stuck in their own mind: like claiming you cannot dream in color. What is "normal" will depend on the person, and a truly abnormal person may not know he is abnormal as quotes from schizophrenics on medicine or those between manic and depressive states will indicate: they feel "normal" in those states.

So how do you understand how a gorilla thinks?

Aside from asking shemp's Mom?

--J.D.
Mob of the Mean: Free beanie, cattle-prod and Charley Fan Club!
"Doctor X is just treating you the way he treats everyone--as subhuman crap too dumb to breathe in after you breathe out."--Don
DocX: FTW.--sparks
"Doctor X wins again."--Pyrrho
"Never sorry to make a racist Fucktard cry."--His Humble MagNIfIcence
"It was the criticisms of Doc X, actually, that let me see more clearly how far the hypocrisy had gone."--clarsct
"I'd leave it up to Doctor X who has been a benevolent tyrant so far."--Grammatron
"Indeed you are a river to your people.
Shit. That's going to end up in your sig."--Pyrrho
"Try a twelve step program and accept Doctor X as your High Power."--asthmatic camel
"just like Doc X said." --gnome

ImageWS CHAMPIONS X4!!!! ImageNBA CHAMPIONS!! Stanley Cup!Image SB CHAMPIONS X6!!!!!! Image

User avatar
Abdul Alhazred
Posts: 78037
Joined: Mon Jun 07, 2004 1:33 pm
Title: Yes, that one.
Location: Chicago

Re: MAKE THE LITTLE BASTARDS SUFFER! Science now says it's possible.

Post by Abdul Alhazred » Wed Jul 17, 2019 12:05 pm

So no point in being sadistic about insect pain, because although they feel it they cannot think about it.

So God is merciful after all. :BigGrin3:
Image "If I turn in a sicko, will I get a reward?"

"Yes! A BIG REWARD!" ====> Click here to turn in a sicko
The arc of the moral universe bends towards chaos.
People who believe God or History are on their side provide the chaos.