## Relativity puzzle

We are the Borg.
robinson
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### Re: Relativity puzzle

robinson wrote: Tue Oct 13, 2020 7:45 am The real puzzle is when you realize the lab can be the stationary object and the observer is moving. And the math is exactly the same.
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Witness
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### Re: Relativity puzzle

robinson wrote: Fri Nov 13, 2020 2:05 pm
robinson wrote: Tue Oct 13, 2020 7:45 am The real puzzle is when you realize the lab can be the stationary object and the observer is moving. And the math is exactly the same.
Great! Show us…
robinson
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### Re: Relativity puzzle

There is no way to prove (know) if it’s the lab moving or the observer

So the math is exactly the same

Everyone moving in relation to somebody else sees the other persons clock running slower

It doesn’t matter which person you pick as the observer

If you think about it, it can’t be any other way
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robinson
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### Re: Relativity puzzle

It’s why the speed of light is always the same for every observer, no matter how “fast” or “slow” they are moving, which of course is in relation to something else that is moving, it doesn’t matter to the observer, they are always not moving from their perspective

(Remember this is movement, not acceleration)
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robinson
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### Re: Relativity puzzle

It’s why the speed of light is always the same for every observer, no matter how “fast” or “slow” they are moving, which of course is in relation to something else that is moving, it doesn’t matter to the observer, they are always not moving from their perspective

(Remember this is movement, not acceleration)
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robinson
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### Re: Relativity puzzle

The light bouncing back and forth between the mirrors doesn’t know there is any motion

Nor does it ever travel farther, no matter what the relative motion

It helps to realize the stationary lab with the two mirrors might be moving at a fraction of the speed of light, from some observers POV

But it’s relative motion

The lab and the mirrors are not actually moving at all, according to them
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robinson
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### Re: Relativity puzzle

The light bouncing back and forth between the mirrors doesn’t know there is any motion

Nor does it ever travel farther, no matter what the relative motion

It helps to realize the stationary lab with the two mirrors might be moving at a fraction of the speed of light, from some observers POV

But it’s relative motion

The lab and the mirrors are not actually moving at all, according to the mirrors and the light between them
still working on Sophrosyne, but I will no doubt end up with Hubris
Witness
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### Re: Relativity puzzle

robinson wrote: Sat Nov 14, 2020 2:27 am There is no way to prove (know) if it’s the lab moving or the observer

So the math is exactly the same
I don't disagree. Just show us that "the math is exactly the same", without hand waving. I. e. we need proof.
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### Re: Relativity puzzle

robinson wrote: Sat Nov 14, 2020 2:31 am It’s why the speed of light is always the same for every observer, no matter how “fast” or “slow” they are moving, which of course is in relation to something else that is moving, it doesn’t matter to the observer, they are always not moving from their perspective
You have your implications backwards: it is because all experiments showed the constancy of the speed of light (in a vacuum) that the ether theory was ditched and special relativity introduced.

robinson wrote: Sat Nov 14, 2020 2:31 am (Remember this is movement, not acceleration)
Are you implying that an accelerated observer measures a different light speed?
Witness
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### Re: Relativity puzzle

I'm sure you could, with some effort, even triple post.
robinson
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### Re: Relativity puzzle

Only losers triple post lol
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robinson
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### Re: Relativity puzzle

Not if you are doing the maths
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Witness
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### Re: Relativity puzzle

robinson wrote: Sat Nov 14, 2020 2:22 pm Not if you are doing the maths
Still waiting…
robinson
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### Re: Relativity puzzle

The math is exactly the same

https://www.pitt.edu/~jdnorton/teaching ... index.html

What happens depends on the observer, the unmoving observer in the thought experiment sees light traveling farther, but if you think about it, the lab can be stationary and the observer is moving

It has to be that way

The “moving” clock is not moving to the observer in the lab

Time is perfect and the light doesn’t travel any farther, even as the moving observer sees it does
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robinson
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### Re: Relativity puzzle

Which is why it’s so puzzling
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robinson
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### Re: Relativity puzzle

It helps to realize no matter what the movement we ascribe to the lab and the observer, they are both moving in respect to something else

To an observer “not moving” at the center of the galaxy, they are both moving really really fast, which is why that observer sees both of them with slower clocks

Then there is the motion around the sun, and the entire frame is moving toward another galaxy, and that frame is rushing towards a great attractor

So the math gets more complicated

But to the lab, nothing is moving in the lab, except photons, at the speed of light
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Witness
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### Re: Relativity puzzle

robinson wrote: Sun Nov 15, 2020 3:33 am The math is exactly the same

https://www.pitt.edu/~jdnorton/teaching ... index.html
Zero math there. Still waiting…
robinson
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### Re: Relativity puzzle

shemp wrote: Tue Oct 13, 2020 3:28 am "Who gives a fuck?"
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Witness
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### Re: Relativity puzzle

robinson wrote: Sun Nov 15, 2020 8:43 am
shemp wrote: Tue Oct 13, 2020 3:28 am "Who gives a fuck?"
Begs the question: why did you show up to comment in this thread then?

Still got nothing about "exactly the same math", eh? Quelle surprise.
robinson
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### Re: Relativity puzzle

I showed up? That's not how this works, that's not how any of this works
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robinson
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### Re: Relativity puzzle

robinson wrote: Tue Oct 13, 2020 7:45 am The real puzzle is when you realize the lab can be the stationary object and the observer is moving. And the math is exactly the same.
This is a basic part of the theory. Since there is no way to actually say, or know, who is moving or at rest, (everyone is actually), and the idealized rest state or observer location is a fiction, used to do maths, it doesn't matter which you say is moving.

The math is the same.

The perceived motion of the lab, (with the mirrors, the light, the time and distance), it is all dependant on the observer. And it doesn't matter if the lab is "stationary" and the observe is moving, the calculations are the same.
still working on Sophrosyne, but I will no doubt end up with Hubris
Witness
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### Re: Relativity puzzle

robinson wrote: Mon Nov 16, 2020 4:26 am
robinson wrote: Tue Oct 13, 2020 7:45 am The real puzzle is when you realize the lab can be the stationary object and the observer is moving. And the math is exactly the same.
This is a basic part of the theory. Since there is no way to actually say, or know, who is moving or at rest, (everyone is actually), and the idealized rest state or observer location is a fiction, used to do maths, it doesn't matter which you say is moving.

The math is the same.

The perceived motion of the lab, (with the mirrors, the light, the time and distance), it is all dependant on the observer. And it doesn't matter if the lab is "stationary" and the observe is moving, the calculations are the same.
You already wrote that, twice, and I still don't disagree,

Yet no math. Prove your claim that it is "exactly the same" or admit that you're unable to do it.
robinson
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### Re: Relativity puzzle

Whatever the relative velocity of the observer is, just plug it in

You can have multiple observers at different velocities, observing the same lab

Each observer gets a different answer
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Witness
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### Re: Relativity puzzle

Just show how it's done.
robinson
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### Re: Relativity puzzle

Just re-invent the wheel
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robinson
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### Re: Relativity puzzle

The observer in the moving lab sees the exact same thing if the stationary observer also has mirrors and a light, and the moving lab is measuring the distance looking at the unmoving observer

The math is exactly the same
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robinson
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### Re: Relativity puzzle

Which is from the theory of relativity
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Witness
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### Re: Relativity puzzle

robinson
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### Re: Relativity puzzle

Let’s cut to the chase

Does an observer in the lab see clocks running slower for the non moving observer! There is another light mirror set up where the non moving observer is

What does the lab observer see? The non moving observer appears to be moving

Which they are of course, relative to the lab
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robinson
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### Re: Relativity puzzle

It’s a simple question
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Witness
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### Re: Relativity puzzle

robinson wrote: Fri Nov 20, 2020 3:52 am Balls in your court
robinson
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### Re: Relativity puzzle

Avoidance noted
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Witness
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### Re: Relativity puzzle

Lol.

Still nothing, eh?
robinson
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### Re: Relativity puzzle

It’s all relative man
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Anaxagoras
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### Re: Relativity puzzle

I think you're letting yourself be trolled Witness. I'll admit that I just don't know how to do the math.
A fool thinks himself to be wise, but a wise man knows himself to be a fool.
William Shakespeare
robinson
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### Re: Relativity puzzle

Trolling robinson is never a good idea

You think you will get a bite (trolling in the sense of fishing for attention), but what actually happens is a great white eats your entire boat
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robinson
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### Re: Relativity puzzle

I’ve read Einstein and a lot of works on his theories, the reciprocal math is a fundamental thing, that is called In physics, the principle of relativity. It is the requirement that the equations describing the laws of physics have the same form in all admissible frames of reference.

I say the math used to calculate is the same for both frames of reference, in this puzzle.
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robinson
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### Re: Relativity puzzle

Now I could be wrong, but I very much doubt it
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Witness
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### Re: Relativity puzzle

Anaxagoras wrote: Sat Nov 21, 2020 2:52 pm I think you're letting yourself be trolled Witness. I'll admit that I just don't know how to do the math.
Made me laugh. Hint: I don't interact with Roby outside of this thread.