## Venezuela Meltdown

Lies, damned lies, and statistics.
Abdul Alhazred
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### Re: Venezuela Meltdown

The Venezuelan authorities are adding zeroes to the minimum wage to keep up with their degradation of their currency (and not quite making it).

This obviously has nothing to do with any debates about the minimum wage in the USA.
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gnome
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### Re: Venezuela Meltdown

I wonder if part of the issue is legally mandatory treasury payouts, which obviously don't care about the money supply. But, as far as I can tell, they just make the inflation worse and do nothing much for the people receiving the soon-to-be-worthless payments.

Could you bulwark against hyperinflation by having some kind of trigger that freezes payments made in domestic currency, as well as the obligation to accept it? If the government owed me money, I'd rather it go into default and still owe me, than discharge the obligation with currency that is useless. It would open the door to negotiated settlements using alternative tender--a foreign currency, goods, hell even cryptocurrency. The government would have reason to offer deals because they will still need to purchase services--and people would have reason to accept them because they still need income. Those might be less damaging options for both the debtors, the government, and the nation's economy.
Last edited by gnome on Sun Sep 16, 2018 12:01 am, edited 1 time in total.
"If fighting is sure to result in victory, then you must fight! Sun Tzu said that, and I'd say he knows a little bit more about fighting than you do, pal, because he invented it, and then he perfected it so that no living man could best him in the ring of honor. Then, he used his fight money to buy two of every animal on earth, and then he herded them onto a boat, and then he beat the crap out of every single one. And from that day forward any time a bunch of animals are together in one place it's called a zoo! (Beat) Unless it's a farm!"
--Soldier, TF2

Abdul Alhazred
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### Re: Venezuela Meltdown

... legally mandatory ...
As if such a consideration means anything at this point.
Any man writes a mission statement spends a night in the box.
-- our mission statement plappendale

gnome
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Location: New Port Richey, FL

### Re: Venezuela Meltdown

Abdul Alhazred wrote:
Sun Sep 16, 2018 12:01 am
... legally mandatory ...
As if such a consideration means anything at this point.
Well, not NOW, no. It's too late there.

At an earlier stage.
"If fighting is sure to result in victory, then you must fight! Sun Tzu said that, and I'd say he knows a little bit more about fighting than you do, pal, because he invented it, and then he perfected it so that no living man could best him in the ring of honor. Then, he used his fight money to buy two of every animal on earth, and then he herded them onto a boat, and then he beat the crap out of every single one. And from that day forward any time a bunch of animals are together in one place it's called a zoo! (Beat) Unless it's a farm!"
--Soldier, TF2

Skeeve
Posts: 10645
Joined: Wed Jun 09, 2004 7:35 am

### Re: Venezuela Meltdown

Why some Venezuelans fear Maduro is selling them out to China
Venezuela's President Nicolas Maduro took his exhausted country by surprise on Wednesday by boarding a flight to China.

The visit — widely believed to be a pitch by Maduro's fiscally-crippled government for a loan — is likely to sound alarms in capitals around the hemisphere as governments try to guess what Venezuela is offering China and what China's motives might be for lending money to a country that can't pay its debts now.

Beijing knows about Venezuela's solvency crisis better than most. Three years ago, China turned off the credit taps after lending Venezuela more than US$50 billion. It later had to grant the Latin nation a grace period for repayment. Venezuela watchers say that if China is reopening those taps, it can only be in return for far-reaching concessions, leading some to ask whether Beijing is about to establish its first real beachhead here in the Americas. Could it possibly be any worse than what they already have? I suppose so... Then Skank Of America could start in... xouper Posts: 9118 Joined: Fri Jun 11, 2004 4:52 am Location: HockeyTown USA ### Re: Venezuela Meltdown gnome wrote: Sat Sep 15, 2018 5:36 pm shuize wrote: Sat Sep 15, 2018 2:25 am First of all, that's impossible. We've been assured by some American stupid leftists that no harm can ever come from raising the minimum wage. Fixed that for you. Straw is too easy a target. The two qualifiers you added were unnecessary and redundant, since they are already assumed. It is clear from the context that shuize was not claiming that all leftists have done that. Shuize is merely saying that the assurances were given by American leftists, which is an accurate statement even without the qualifiers you added. gnome wrote: Sat Sep 15, 2018 5:36 pm Obviously it is possible to raise the minimum wage too high. You can probably find some dumbos that literally do not think so, but why only debate them? You are correct, but that is not the problem, and I assume is not what shuize was talking about anyway. In the US, I have seen no one argue for$200 minimum wage, for all the obvious reasons. The problem is raising it by any amount, no matter how small. The problem is that the same reasons why \$200 is a bad idea also apply to any minimum wage at all.

In general, it is not possible to legislate revisions to the The Law of Supply and Demand, no matter how hard leftist politician try. Anyone who thinks they can do so by legislating any kind of minimum wage without negative consequences is, to use your word, stupid. And yet they never seem to learn that simple economic lesson, but then the stupid leftist politicians don't seem to understand much about economics anyway. Find some other way to solve the problem.

WildCat
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Location: The 33rd Ward, Chicago

### Re: Venezuela Meltdown

xouper wrote:
Sun Sep 16, 2018 11:02 am
In general, it is not possible to legislate revisions to the The Law of Supply and Demand, no matter how hard leftist politician try. Anyone who thinks they can do so by legislating any kind of minimum wage without negative consequences is, to use your word, stupid. And yet they never seem to learn that simple economic lesson, but then the stupid leftist politicians don't seem to understand much about economics anyway. Find some other way to solve the problem.
I think it's possible to raise the national minimum wage without long-tern negative consequences. However, there will never be long-term positive consequences in raising minimum wage. Quite simply raising minimum wage cannot, will not, and never has raised the standard of living for those at the low end of the wage scale.
Do you have questions about God?

you sniveling little right-wing nutter - jj

xouper
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Location: HockeyTown USA

### Re: Venezuela Meltdown

WildCat wrote:
Sun Sep 16, 2018 5:49 pm
xouper wrote:
Sun Sep 16, 2018 11:02 am
In general, it is not possible to legislate revisions to the The Law of Supply and Demand, no matter how hard leftist politician try. Anyone who thinks they can do so by legislating any kind of minimum wage without negative consequences is, to use your word, stupid. And yet they never seem to learn that simple economic lesson, but then the stupid leftist politicians don't seem to understand much about economics anyway. Find some other way to solve the problem.
I think it's possible to raise the national minimum wage without long-tern negative consequences.
One of the negative consequences of raising the minimum wage (or even having a minimum wage at all) is that some people will lose their jobs. Some jobs are simply not worth paying above a certain dollar amount, and thus those jobs will disappear for lack of a buyer. Even if someone is willing to sell his labor for less than the minimum wage, the law says he cannot do so, and thus for some people that means they cannot sell their labor at all*. I would call that a negative consequence.

One way the market has found to get around minimum wage is to stop using employees and instead use "independent contractors". Amazon and Uber, for example, do this. However, this tactic does not work for most jobs. For example, McDonald's can't use "independent contractors" to flip burgers.

_____________________________________________________
* Footnote: Not as an employee anyway. Independent contractors can sell their labor below the minimum wage if they wish.

ed
Posts: 33646
Joined: Tue Jun 08, 2004 11:52 pm
Title: Rhino of the Florida swamp

### Re: Venezuela Meltdown

McD prides itself as america's "first job" for kids.

The left will fix that
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gnome
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Joined: Tue Jun 29, 2004 12:40 am
Location: New Port Richey, FL

### Re: Venezuela Meltdown

For me it's hand in hand with having a social safety net. If people can survive on starvation wages because they're getting food from the government, employers are insulated from that wage pressure, so it's effectively getting a subsidy from the government by not having to pay the worker so much. I don't think it can be pretended that the lowest end is the true market value in that situation.
"If fighting is sure to result in victory, then you must fight! Sun Tzu said that, and I'd say he knows a little bit more about fighting than you do, pal, because he invented it, and then he perfected it so that no living man could best him in the ring of honor. Then, he used his fight money to buy two of every animal on earth, and then he herded them onto a boat, and then he beat the crap out of every single one. And from that day forward any time a bunch of animals are together in one place it's called a zoo! (Beat) Unless it's a farm!"
--Soldier, TF2

shuize
Posts: 547
Joined: Tue Nov 14, 2017 4:32 am

### Re: Venezuela Meltdown

I did not mean to derail the thread. I was just pointing out the two paragraphs I quoted contradict things I've been told in the past. First, from American leftists, that raising the minimum wage does not cost jobs. It does. Second, from the Venezuelan government, that there is no refugee crisis. There obviously is.

WildCat
Posts: 14245
Joined: Tue Jun 15, 2004 2:53 am
Location: The 33rd Ward, Chicago

### Re: Venezuela Meltdown

gnome wrote:
Sun Sep 16, 2018 11:20 pm
For me it's hand in hand with having a social safety net. If people can survive on starvation wages because they're getting food from the government, employers are insulated from that wage pressure, so it's effectively getting a subsidy from the government by not having to pay the worker so much. I don't think it can be pretended that the lowest end is the true market value in that situation.
Aren't the companies subsidizing the taxpayers by reducing the amount of welfare needed? Some jobs were never meant to be careers.

Because you assume that the government can dictate prices with no effect on the market, which is something they haven't been able to do in all of human history.
Do you have questions about God?

you sniveling little right-wing nutter - jj

Witness
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Joined: Thu Sep 19, 2013 5:50 pm

### Re: Venezuela Meltdown

shuize wrote:
Mon Sep 17, 2018 12:26 am
I did not mean to derail the thread. I was just pointing out the two paragraphs I quoted contradict things I've been told in the past. First, from American leftists, that raising the minimum wage does not cost jobs. It does. Second, from the Venezuelan government, that there is no refugee crisis. There obviously is.
Relax, just proof that socialism makes the impossible possible.

China: Our Cooperation With Venezuela Opens Up New Prospects

The comprehensive strategic partnership between China and Venezuela will step up to a new level and open up new prospects, a Chinese Ministry of Foreign Affairs official said Thursday.

Zhao Bentang, Director-General of the Department of Latin American and Caribbean Affairs of the Ministry of Foreign Affairs, said that during Venezuelan President Nicolas Maduro’s current visit, a number of significant cooperation agreements will be signed.

Zhao said that the re-election of President Maduro in May indicates that Venezuela has entered a new stage of seeking stability and promoting development.

The Venezuelan government has recently launched economic and financial reforms, which have received good public responses.

“What I want to stress is Venezuela’s steady development agrees with the interests of all sides. China hopes Venezuelan government and the people can handle their domestic affairs well within the framework of laws,” said Zhao.

Zhao also noted Venezuela is a comprehensive strategic partner of China and also one of China’s important trade and economic cooperation partners; no matter how the situation changes, China’s friendly policy towards Venezuela will not change.
https://todayvenezuela.com/2018/09/16/c ... prospects/

Perhaps related to:
OAS chief threatens military force against Venezuela

Secretary-General of the Organization of American States (OAS) Luis Almagro said Friday in the border city of Cucuta, Colombia that a “military intervention aimed at overthrowing the regime of Nicolas Maduro” shouldn’t be “excluded” as an option.
https://todayvenezuela.com/2018/09/16/o ... venezuela/

Witness
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Joined: Thu Sep 19, 2013 5:50 pm

### Re: Venezuela Meltdown

Nicolás Maduro, the president of Venezuela, has been heavily criticised for eating at Istanbul's famous Nusr-Et steakhouse run by Turkish chef Nusret Gökçe, better known as 'Salt Bae'. Maduro visited the restaurant on his way back from China through Turkey at a time when many in Venezuela are short of food

Anaxagoras
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### Re: Venezuela Meltdown

Love that image. There's your "man of the people".
A fool thinks himself to be wise, but a wise man knows himself to be a fool.
William Shakespeare

Witness
Posts: 17759
Joined: Thu Sep 19, 2013 5:50 pm

### Re: Venezuela Meltdown

↑ The cigar is objectively revolutionary, comrade!

ed
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Title: Rhino of the Florida swamp

### Re: Venezuela Meltdown

From Amnesty International
The 58-page report - This is no way to live: Public security and the right to life in Venezuela - shows how the Venezuelan government is failing to protect its people amidst alarming levels of insecurity in the country, instead implementing repressive and deadly measures.

Amnesty’s extensive study includes revealing the latest data into human rights abuses in the country, including:

8,292 extrajudicial executions took place in the last two years between 2015 and 2017.
4,667 (22%) of the homicides in 2016 were at the hands of security officials.
Last year, 95% of murder victims were men, 60% between 12 and 29 years old.
87% of people live in poverty.
There has been a 65% increase in maternal mortality.
There has been a 30% increase in infant mortality.
https://www.amnesty.org.uk/press-releas ... new-report
Wenn ich Kultur höre, entsichere ich meinen Browning!

Witness
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Joined: Thu Sep 19, 2013 5:50 pm

### Re: Venezuela Meltdown

Maduro’s huge salary hike deals fatal blow to 40 percent of Venezuelan stores

Nearly 40 percent of all Venezuelan stores have closed their doors — some of them perhaps permanently — after the government of President Nicolás Maduro increased the minimum salary by nearly 3,500 percent in one fell swoop, according the National Council of Commerce and Services of National Council of Commerce and Services of Venezuela.

Many of the companies, which had been barely surviving the gradual collapse of the economy, saw the salary increase and other changes announced last month as the fatal blow in a string of policies that have been gradually strangling their operations.

“It is a perfect storm,” said María Carolina Uzcátegui, president of the council. “These decisions are leading many business people to say, ‘No, I can’t do it any more.’”

The problem is that Venezuelan companies are being forced to sell at prices far below cost just as employee salaries are increasing by 60 times, Uzcátegui said.

What’s more, the regime has banned stores from increasing their prices in order to cover the increases in salaries, arguing that it is not necessary.

If they do increase prices, store owners or managers can wind up in prison, Uzcátegui said.
https://www.miamiherald.com/news/nation ... nk=SecList

Grammatron
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### Re: Venezuela Meltdown

How long before it's illegal to go out of business?

Witness
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### Re: Venezuela Meltdown

Venezuela crisis: Chinese hospital ship docks for a week

A Chinese hospital ship has docked in Venezuela, where for the next week it will provide free health care to local patients.
https://www.bbc.com/news/world-latin-america-45616736