Venezuela Meltdown

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ed
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Re: Venezuela Meltdown

Post by ed » Thu Jan 24, 2019 2:52 pm

We'll get blamed no matter what so fuck 'em.
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Re: Venezuela Meltdown

Post by Doctor X » Thu Jan 24, 2019 2:53 pm

I thought Trump was Putin's Puppet[Tm.--Ed.].

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Re: Venezuela Meltdown

Post by WildCat » Thu Jan 24, 2019 3:06 pm

Skeeve wrote:
Thu Jan 24, 2019 2:45 pm
Riddle me this then:
Where were these 'mass protests' if this has been brewing for a while?
Again, where is the army?
If Maduro is some 'ruthless dictator' wouldn't they be putting this shit down?
This is from 2013: Venezuela reports 7 dead in post-election protests

Mostly Maduro relies on militias armed by the government to do his dirty work. I don't think he could order the army to do it without creating a full-scale civil war, their loyalty only goes so far.
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Re: Venezuela Meltdown

Post by Abdul Alhazred » Thu Jan 24, 2019 3:14 pm

WildCat wrote:
Thu Jan 24, 2019 3:06 pm
... their loyalty only goes so far ...
... especially when they are running out of food.
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Re: Venezuela Meltdown

Post by Skeeve » Thu Jan 24, 2019 3:22 pm

WildCat wrote:
Thu Jan 24, 2019 3:06 pm
Skeeve wrote:
Thu Jan 24, 2019 2:45 pm
Riddle me this then:
Where were these 'mass protests' if this has been brewing for a while?
Again, where is the army?
If Maduro is some 'ruthless dictator' wouldn't they be putting this shit down?
This is from 2013: Venezuela reports 7 dead in post-election protests

Mostly Maduro relies on militias armed by the government to do his dirty work. I don't think he could order the army to do it without creating a full-scale civil war, their loyalty only goes so far.
So their military or para-military folks do this in a covert manner?
Okay, plausable.

It still does not explain why the mass protests waited until now, but okay...

SO do you think the international aspect of this is just Russia, China, et all giving Donald Trump a good bitch slap?

Meanwhile: Watch: Maduro faces off with US over Venezuela rival's power claim(Note: the video is no longer available for some reason)
Venezuelans headed into uncharted political waters Thursday, with the young leader of a newly united and combative opposition claiming to hold the presidency and socialist President Nicolas Maduro digging in for a fight with the Trump administration.

Violence flared again Wednesday during big anti-government demonstrations across Venezuela, and at least seven protesters were reported killed in the escalating confrontation with ]Maduro, who has been increasingly accused of undemocratic behaviour by the United States and many other nations in the region.

Juan Guaido, the new leader of the opposition-controlled National Assembly, turned up the heat by declaring himself interim president before a mass of demonstrators in Caracas. He said it is the only way to end the Maduro "dictatorship" in Venezuela, which has seen millions flee in recent years to escape sky-high inflation and food shortages.
...
Maduro fired back by breaking diplomatic relations with the U.S., the biggest trading partner for the oil-exporting country, and ordering American diplomats to get out of the country within 72 hours. Washington said it would ignore the order.

The socialist leader, who so far has been backed by the military, as well as the government-packed courts and a constituent assembly, recalled the long history of heavy-handed U.S. interventions in Latin America during the Cold War as he asked his allies for support.

"Don't trust the gringos," he thundered to a crowd of red-shirted supporters gathered at the presidential palace. "They don't have friends or loyalties. They only have interests, guts and the ambition to take Venezuela's oil, gas and gold."

China's Foreign Ministry called on the United States to stay out of the crisis, while Russia's deputy foreign minister warned the U.S. against any military intervention in Venezuela.
"Thus it remains, and the remainder thus."
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Re: Venezuela Meltdown

Post by Skeeve » Thu Jan 24, 2019 3:39 pm

Meanwhile, the stories keep coming in...
Venezuela and U.S. locked in tense standoff as Russia warns...
CARACAS, Venezuela — The United States and Venezuela were locked in a tense international standoff Thursday, as the Trump administration kept its embassy staff in the country despite an official order to eject them and Russia demanded that the Americans cease “intervention” in the teetering, oil-rich nation.

Moscow and Beijing have propped up the socialist South American state for years, investing billions through loans and energy deals and setting up what is now a dramatic global power play over Venezuela’s future. On Wednesday, Washington recognized Juan Guaidó, head of the U.S.-backed opposition, as the rightful leader of Venezuela, describing President Nicolás Maduro — a former union leader and bus driver accused of turning Venezuela into a narco-state — as a usurper.
Well, it sure looks like they have some 'skin in the game' as it were...
...
On Thursday, the scene outside U.S. Embassy in Caracas, normally abuzz with visa applicants, was eerily quiet, with embassy guards firmly preventing most access. The embassy issued a bulletin calling on staff to keep their children home from school, confine themselves to two neighborhoods in the capital and avoid any public demonstrations.

The embassy said it would remain open for U.S. citizens needing “emergency services,” but canceled most visa appointments for Venezuelans. People leaving the embassy early Thursday said the situation inside appeared normal.
...
Yet the Trump administration’s decision to keep the embassy open in defiance of Maduro amounted a risky gambit. Collective pressure from the United States and a host of regional nations including Brazil, Argentina and Colombia to force Maduro out has given new lift to the opposition, which brought hundreds of thousands of protesters into the streets this week.
Well, okay perhaps a plausable explination, and may explain the absence of the army, if the neighboring countrys are behind some of this shit, the army is most likely at or ready to deploy to the boarders... makes sense?

:Popcorn:
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Skeeve
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Re: Venezuela Meltdown

Post by Skeeve » Thu Jan 24, 2019 3:46 pm

And yet another....
The Latest: Venezuelan soldiers on air to back Maduro
CARACAS, Venezuela — The Latest on the political crisis in Venezuela (all times local):

10:05 a.m.

Military commanders across Venezuela are taking to the airwaves to vow loyalty to embattled President Nicolas Maduro.

Major General Victor Palacio said Thursday he categorically rejected any acts threatening stability in Venezuela.

Opposition leader Juan Guaido a day earlier spoke to masses of supporters crowding the streets of Caracas that he's assuming the presidency.

He called for new elections to restore democracy and appealed to members of the military to reject what he called Maduro's dictatorship.

Palacio is one of several generals who have been appearing on state TV, standing before dozens of soldiers in a show of military support.
Looks like they still support Maduro.
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Re: Venezuela Meltdown

Post by Doctor X » Thu Jan 24, 2019 3:48 pm

Trump standing up for principle.

Image

Are "Make Venezuela Great Again" hats racist?

--J.D.
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Shit. That's going to end up in your sig."--Pyrrho
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Re: Venezuela Meltdown

Post by Skeeve » Thu Jan 24, 2019 4:01 pm

U.S. rejects Maduro decision to sever diplomatic ties
WASHINGTON, Jan 23 (Reuters) - The United States on Wednesday rejected a move by Venezuela's Nicolas Maduro to break diplomatic ties, saying it did not think he had the authority to cut ties and it would conduct relations with a government led by opposition leader Juan Guaido.

"The United States maintains diplomatic relations with Venezuela and will conduct our relations with Venezuela through the government of interim President Guaido, who has invited our mission to remain in Venezuela," Secretary of State Mike Pompeo said in a statement.

"The United States does not recognize the Maduro regime as the government of Venezuela. Accordingly the United States does not consider former president Nicolas Maduro to have the legal authority to break diplomatic relations."
And Juan Guaido (according to the latest rumour) seems to be hiding out in the Columbian embassy...okay, I wonder how long this stalemate will keep going....

The Latest: Venezuelan lawyers seeking protection for Guaido
CARACAS, VENEZUELA
The latest on nationwide protests in Venezuela (all times local):

10:50 p.m.

Three Venezuelan lawyers are asking the Inter-American Commission on Human Rights to grant precautionary measures to protect opposition leader Juan Guaido, his wife and his daughter.
Hrm... that does not sound good....

Just an aside, it is hard to tell, but it sure looks like these "Venezualian protesters" havn't missed too many meals. For a country that is 'starving its people' they look fairly well fed....
Image
...must be the camera, adds 20 pounds right? Or maybe they are folks from other countries who have sneeked over the border to help with this 'grass roots' effort?

:Popcorn:
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Re: Venezuela Meltdown

Post by Skeeve » Thu Jan 24, 2019 5:42 pm

'Guys with guns' will determine what happens next ...
Venezuela is on the brink of a lasting change, according to Latin American leaders gathered at the World Economic Forum (WEF) in Davos.

The South American country is embroiled in fast-moving political crisis, after an opposition leader stood in the streets of Caracas on Wednesday and declared himself as the rightful interim president.
...
Maduro also dismissed Guaido's claim to the presidency, saying it was part of an American-led conspiracy to orchestrate a coup from afar.

"There is no doubt that the behavior of guys with guns will define much of what will happen in the coming days and shape politics in Venezuela," Moises Naim, a former Venezuelan minister now at the Carnegie Endowment for International Peace, said during a WEF panel session on Thursday.
...
When asked whether international military intervention would be the best approach to solve the crisis, Jose Valencia, Ecuador's foreign minister, replied: "We disagree with that option."

"We think it would have mostly negative impacts," he added.
So it is now a waiting game or stalemate...
:Popcorn:
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Re: Venezuela Meltdown

Post by Skeeve » Thu Jan 24, 2019 9:30 pm

UPDATE: Former top US military official: don’t invade Venezuela
President Donald Trump once openly considered a “military option” to oust Venezuelan President Nicolás Maduro — and now that the US has officially called on Maduro to step down amid massive protests against his rule, Trump says that option is back on the table.
...
But retired Air Force Gen. Douglas Fraser, who from June 2009 to November 2012 led US Southern Command — the part of the Defense Department responsible for overseeing Central and South America and the Caribbean — told me that US military intervention is the wrong course of action right now.

“I don’t see a good reason for the military to be employed in this situation,” he said.

Here’s why he thinks that, and why the Trump administration should prioritize other options instead.
...
Maduro still has control and the backing of major institutions in his country — including the military. On Thursday, Venezuela’s armed forces said they support their Maduro and will stop any coup attempts against him.

That means that any US military action aimed at toppling Maduro would likely be met with stiff resistance from the 515,000-strong Venezuelan military.

What’s more, even if the US military did succeed in toppling Maduro, the country would almost certainly be in a much worse state after even the most limited war — and Venezuela is already suffering from a dire humanitarian catastrophe caused by an economic collapse over the past several years.

That could pressure the US military to stay in the country long enough to stabilize it — potentially leading to yet another open-ended US military commitment abroad. (See: the Iraq War and the war in Afghanistan.)
Do we really want another flipping war?
We are (maybe) just now ending involvement in one of Obama's debacles in Syria...WTAF....

There is also Russia and China to consider. I think Russia may be serious, and we are still trying to work out a trade deal with China.
China does not have to fire a shot. They own a significant amount of OUR debt. Enough to cause some pain and suffering...

All things considered, I suspect both sides will sit back and start a proxy war....it looks as if every country surrounding Venezuela is against them.
So we'll see...
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Re: Venezuela Meltdown

Post by Anaxagoras » Thu Jan 24, 2019 10:46 pm

Apparently the US is not alone in recognizing the opposition leader as president.
CARACAS - Numerous governments in the Western Hemisphere quickly recognized Venezuelan opposition leader Juan Guaido after he declared himself the interim president of his crisis-torn country Wednesday.

The United States and all but one member of the Lima Group of regional nations threw their support behind Guaido after he declared himself leader in a speech before masses of anti-government demonstrators.

At a rally in eastern Caracas that drew hunreds of thousands, Guaido accused President Nicolas Maduro of usurping power. He promised to create a transitional government that would help the country escape its economic collapse. “I swear to assume all the powers of the presidency to secure an end to the usurpation,” Guaido, the head of the opposition-run legislature, told the crowd.

Guaido’s declaration takes Venezuela into uncharted territory, with the possibility of the opposition now running a parallel government that is recognized abroad as legitimate but lacks control over state functions.

In a potent symbol of Venezuelan anger, demonstrators in the southern city of Puerto Ordaz on Tuesday toppled a statue of the late socialist leader Hugo Chavez. They broke it in half and dangled part of it from a bridge.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lima_Group

The "Lima Group" includes most of the major countries in the Western Hemisphere.
The declaration by the Lima Group, which has been vocal in denouncing Maduro, was signed by Argentina, Brazil, Canada, Chile, Colombia, Costa Rica, Guatemala, Honduras, Paraguay and Peru. Mexico was the only member to not sign.

The group said it supported the beginning of the process of a democratic transition in Venezuela following its constitution with aim of carrying out new elections as soon as possible. It also condemned acts of violence in Venezuela and made a call for peace.

U.S. President Donald Trump called on Maduro to resign and said the U.S. would use the “full weight” of its economic and diplomatic power to push for the restoration of Venezuela’s democracy.

The U.S. also said it stood ready to use “all options” if Maduro tries to quash the opposition — an implied threat of military force.

U.S. Secretary of State Mike Pompeo called on the Venezuelan military to protect “the welfare and well-being of all Venezuelan citizens,” along with U.S. citizens in Venezuela. Pompeo said the United States would take “appropriate actions” against anyone who endangered the safety of U.S. personnel.
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Re: Venezuela Meltdown

Post by Skeeve » Fri Jan 25, 2019 11:52 am

Anaxagoras wrote:
Thu Jan 24, 2019 10:46 pm
Apparently the US is not alone in recognizing the opposition leader as president.
CARACAS - Numerous governments in the Western Hemisphere quickly recognized Venezuelan opposition leader Juan Guaido after he declared himself the interim president of his crisis-torn country Wednesday.

The United States and all but one member of the Lima Group of regional nations threw their support behind Guaido after he declared himself leader in a speech before masses of anti-government demonstrators.

....
The "Lima Group" includes most of the major countries in the Western Hemisphere.
Do you think anyone else in the 'Lima Group' would care to go up against Russia, or China, if they decide to put boots on the ground, or assets in the area?
Venezuela’s Military Backs Maduro, as Russia Warns U.S. Not to Intervene

I very greatly doubt it.
I imagine the privilige and pleasure of that shooting war would be ours.

Meanwhile: Venezuela 'interim president' is in hiding — despite US backing — and appears to be failing one of his own 3 tests for securing power
The long list of countries supporting his claim — including the US, the EU, and most of Venezuela's neighbors— gives him a good argument that he has persuaded the international community.

It is difficult to measure Guaidó's popular support, though his rallies have pulled in huge crowds. Tens of thousands of Venezuelans marched in support of Guaidó this week.

Venezuela's military, however, is much more clear-cut. Its leaders have remained staunchly loyal to Maduro.

Guaidó told the Univision TV channel from an undisclosed location on Thursday that he would not rule out granting amnesty to Maduro and his military allies if he secures power.
The guy has chutzpah.
Give him that.
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ed
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Re: Venezuela Meltdown

Post by ed » Fri Jan 25, 2019 12:07 pm

Skeeve wrote:
Fri Jan 25, 2019 11:52 am
Do you think anyone else in the 'Lima Group' would care to go up against Russia, or China, if they decide to put boots on the ground, or assets in the area?
A hostile nation putting a force in our hemisphere?

That would be war.
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Re: Venezuela Meltdown

Post by Anaxagoras » Fri Jan 25, 2019 12:40 pm

ed wrote:
Fri Jan 25, 2019 12:07 pm
Skeeve wrote:
Fri Jan 25, 2019 11:52 am
Do you think anyone else in the 'Lima Group' would care to go up against Russia, or China, if they decide to put boots on the ground, or assets in the area?
A hostile nation putting a force in our hemisphere?

That would be war.
Cuban missile crisis. Otoh, we definitely have forces in their hemisphere.
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ed
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Re: Venezuela Meltdown

Post by ed » Fri Jan 25, 2019 12:49 pm

Anaxagoras wrote:
Fri Jan 25, 2019 12:40 pm
ed wrote:
Fri Jan 25, 2019 12:07 pm
Skeeve wrote:
Fri Jan 25, 2019 11:52 am
Do you think anyone else in the 'Lima Group' would care to go up against Russia, or China, if they decide to put boots on the ground, or assets in the area?
A hostile nation putting a force in our hemisphere?

That would be war.
Cuban missile crisis. Otoh, we definitely have forces in their hemisphere.
It not a kids game where they can play the "well you do it card". Russia trying to land troops in this hemisphere would be a casus belli and I think even Pelosi would be on board.

But everyone else knows it too so it won't happen.
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Re: Venezuela Meltdown

Post by Skeeve » Fri Jan 25, 2019 1:14 pm

SO, probably none of the big guys (US, Russia, Korea, China, Turkey (LOL)) will do much.
There may be a proxy ''fight'' since most of their neighbors (claim to) support Juan.

I guess the bottom line will be, if Juan is caught or killed, then what?
A "trial" if he is caught...maybe.
:Popcorn:
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Re: Venezuela Meltdown

Post by Skeeve » Sat Jan 26, 2019 1:40 am

Trump (or someone) seems to be making this announcement via Youtube... go figure.

ALERT 🔴 Mike Pompeo URGENT Press Conference on the Situation in Venezuela and Maduro



Secretary Pompeo Press Conference on Venezuela
Secretary of State Mike Pompeo holds a Press conference on the political instability in Venezuela and to announce the appointment of Elliott Abrams as the point person on the crisis there.

Eliott gets to go to the UN....
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Re: Venezuela Meltdown

Post by Doctor X » Sat Jan 26, 2019 2:48 pm

Mob of the Mean: Free beanie, cattle-prod and Charley Fan Club!
"Doctor X is just treating you the way he treats everyone--as subhuman crap too dumb to breathe in after you breathe out."--Don
DocX: FTW.--sparks
"Doctor X wins again."--Pyrrho
"Never sorry to make a racist Fucktard cry."--His Humble MagNIfIcence
"It was the criticisms of Doc X, actually, that let me see more clearly how far the hypocrisy had gone."--clarsct
"I'd leave it up to Doctor X who has been a benevolent tyrant so far."--Grammatron
"Indeed you are a river to your people.
Shit. That's going to end up in your sig."--Pyrrho
"Try a twelve step program and accept Doctor X as your High Power."--asthmatic camel
"just like Doc X said." --gnome

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ed
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Re: Venezuela Meltdown

Post by ed » Sat Jan 26, 2019 6:23 pm

Conspicuous by its absence in much of the mainstream news coverage of Venezuela’s political crisis is the word “socialism.” Yes, every sensible observer agrees that Latin America’s once-richest country, sitting atop the world’s largest proven oil reserves, is an economic basket case, a humanitarian disaster, and a dictatorship whose demise cannot come soon enough.

But … socialist? Perish the thought.

Or so goes a line of argument that insists socialism’s good name shouldn’t be tarred by the results of experience. On Venezuela, what you’re likelier to read is that the crisis is the product of corruption, cronyism, populism, authoritarianism, resource-dependency, U.S. sanctions and trickery, even the residues of capitalism itself. Just don’t mention the S-word because, you know, it’s working really well in Denmark.

Curiously, that’s not how the Venezuelan regime’s admirers used to speak of “21st century socialism,” as it was dubbed by Hugo Chávez. The late Venezuelan president, said Britain’s Jeremy Corbyn, “showed us there is a different and a better way of doing things. It’s called socialism, it’s called social justice, and it’s something that Venezuela has made a big step toward.” Noam Chomsky was similarly enthusiastic when he praised Chávez in 2009. “What’s so exciting about at last visiting Venezuela,” the linguist said, is that “I can see how a better world is being created and can speak to the person who’s inspired it.”
https://www.nytimes.com/2019/01/25/opin ... e=Homepage
In the NYT, amazingly.
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