President Trump May Use Military to Build Border Wall

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Re: President Trump May Use Military to Build Border Wall

Post by Skeeve » Wed Jan 02, 2019 4:33 pm

Mexico's New President Unveils 'Free Zones' Plan To Stop Illegal Immigration To U.S.
Mexican President Andres Manuel Lopez Obrador has unveiled a new plan to curtail illegal immigration to the United States by focusing on creating economic "free zones" along the U.S.-Mexico border.

López Obrador, a leftist, announced the Tax Incentive Decree for the Northern Border Region which will create free zones near the border that are over 15 miles wide and will reportedly encompass approximately 2,000 miles. The San Diego Union-Tribune reports that the free zones will:
(*) reduce income taxes from 30 percent to 20 percent
(*) slash the Value Added Tax for goods coming into the country from 16 percent to 8 percent
(*) boost the minimum wage 100 percent to 176 pesos ($8.80), and
(*) make fuel prices the same as those in the the U.S.
"It’s going to be the biggest free zone in the world," Lopez Obrador said. "It is very important to project for winning investment, creating jobs and taking advantage of the economic strength of the United States."

"Proponents of the president's 'free zone' plan believe it would reduce the incentive for Mexicans to migrate to the U.S. and increase competition among local businesses," Fox News reported. "But others fear that Mexican companies, attracted by low taxes, might move to the free zone and create an overall loss of tax revenue for the country as a whole."
Well, we shall see....
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Re: President Trump May Use Military to Build Border Wall

Post by Abdul Alhazred » Wed Jan 02, 2019 4:34 pm

A metaphorical "wall", and Mexico is paying for it.
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Re: President Trump May Use Military to Build Border Wall

Post by gnome » Wed Jan 02, 2019 4:42 pm

Skeeve wrote:
Wed Jan 02, 2019 4:33 pm
Mexico's New President Unveils 'Free Zones' Plan To Stop Illegal Immigration To U.S.
Mexican President Andres Manuel Lopez Obrador has unveiled a new plan to curtail illegal immigration to the United States by focusing on creating economic "free zones" along the U.S.-Mexico border.

López Obrador, a leftist, announced the Tax Incentive Decree for the Northern Border Region which will create free zones near the border that are over 15 miles wide and will reportedly encompass approximately 2,000 miles. The San Diego Union-Tribune reports that the free zones will:
(*) reduce income taxes from 30 percent to 20 percent
(*) slash the Value Added Tax for goods coming into the country from 16 percent to 8 percent
(*) boost the minimum wage 100 percent to 176 pesos ($8.80), and
(*) make fuel prices the same as those in the the U.S.
"It’s going to be the biggest free zone in the world," Lopez Obrador said. "It is very important to project for winning investment, creating jobs and taking advantage of the economic strength of the United States."

"Proponents of the president's 'free zone' plan believe it would reduce the incentive for Mexicans to migrate to the U.S. and increase competition among local businesses," Fox News reported. "But others fear that Mexican companies, attracted by low taxes, might move to the free zone and create an overall loss of tax revenue for the country as a whole."
Well, we shall see....
I can't help contemplate the implications if the "free zones" would be applicable to the rest of the country favorably.
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Re: President Trump May Use Military to Build Border Wall

Post by Abdul Alhazred » Wed Jan 02, 2019 4:44 pm

It's a right wing statist approach to economic development.
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Re: President Trump May Use Military to Build Border Wall

Post by gnome » Wed Jan 02, 2019 4:47 pm

It seems partly statist (the minimum wage hike and the fuel prices)... but if the higher wages give a good result (by attracting workers otherwise trying to go into the US), there's incentive for those not forced to by law to consider doing so voluntarily.
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Re: President Trump May Use Military to Build Border Wall

Post by Abdul Alhazred » Wed Jan 02, 2019 4:52 pm

The key is the lower taxes.

The part of Mexico closest to the USA is already the richest (aside from the capital).

In effect, the poorer parts of Mexico will be subsidizing the richer.

Or is there foreign aid from the USA in the mix?
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Re: President Trump May Use Military to Build Border Wall

Post by Abdul Alhazred » Sun Jan 06, 2019 5:31 pm

Don't want to grasp at straws, but ...

Maybe?

House Budget Chair Yarmuth: I Don’t Think a Wall Is Immoral – Pelosi ‘Willing to Negotiate’
Breitbart
On Saturday’s broadcast of the Fox News Channel’s “America’s News HQ,” House Budget Committee Chairman John Yarmuth (D-KY) said House Speaker Nancy Pelosi (D-CA) is “willing to negotiate.” Yarmuth also differed with Pelosi’s argument that a wall is immoral.

Host Leland Vittert asked, “[T]he positions of the White House may be a little bit all over the place, but Nancy Pelosi says not one dollar for the wall, and calls a wall immoral. So, if you’ve got leadership saying something’s immoral, how’s that negotiating in good faith?”

Yarmuth said, “Well, she’s willing to negotiate. You don’t negotiate in the media. You take your position.”

Yarmuth also addressed Pelosi’s characterization of the wall as immoral by stating, “I don’t know that an inanimate object can be immoral, so I probably would differ on that characterization.”
The above is the entire report.
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Re: President Trump May Use Military to Build Border Wall

Post by Abdul Alhazred » Sun Jan 06, 2019 5:36 pm

Don't want to grasp at straws, but ...

White House signals some compromise in ending U.S. government shutdown
(Reuters via Yahoo)
Showing signs of compromise, the White House signaled on Sunday that talks to reopen the federal government could produce a deal in which President Donald Trump moves away from his demand that a proposed barrier along the southern border be a concrete wall.

The possible concession, which comes days after Trump had floated a barrier of steel instead of a concrete wall, came even as a top official warned that the shutdown, now in its third week, could "drag on a lot longer."

Trump, speaking to reporters outside the White House on Sunday, repeated his threat that if he is unhappy with negotiations in a few days, he could declare a national emergency and use the military to construct a wall, circumventing Congress. He also said he was willing to accept a steel barrier instead of a concrete wall.

...
So if the Dems go for steel not concrete, they can give in and not die forsworn.
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Re: President Trump May Use Military to Build Border Wall

Post by Giz » Sun Jan 06, 2019 5:47 pm

People can’t be illegal but inanimate objects can be immoral? Is that the Pelosi viewpoint?

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Re: President Trump May Use Military to Build Border Wall

Post by Anaxagoras » Mon Jan 07, 2019 3:23 am

I'm pretty sure she meant it as a shorthand for the wall's purpose.

I'm not saying this wall would necessarily be immoral, but how about the Berlin wall, back in the day? The main difference was, that wall was supposed to keep people in, not out, and the East Germans would shoot people who tried to escape. I refer of course, not to the inanimate object itself, but the purpose it was used for.
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Re: President Trump May Use Military to Build Border Wall

Post by xouper » Mon Jan 07, 2019 4:42 am

Anaxagoras wrote:
Mon Jan 07, 2019 3:23 am
I'm pretty sure she meant it as a shorthand for the wall's purpose.
Of course that’s what she meant. Just as illegal immigrant is shorthand for immigrant who is here illegally.

Giz was simply pointing out the double standard of liberals complaining about the latter shorthand, but using a similar shorthand for the wall.

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Re: President Trump May Use Military to Build Border Wall

Post by Skeeve » Wed Jan 09, 2019 10:00 pm

Trump says meeting with Democrats 'waste of time'
WASHINGTON (Reuters) - U.S. President Donald Trump said he left a meeting on border wall funding with Democratic congressional leaders on Wednesday because it was a "total waste of time," while Democrats said he walked out in a "temper tantrum."

Trump met at the White House with congressional leaders including two top Democrats - House of Representatives Speaker Nancy Pelosi and Senate Democratic leader Chuck Schumer - on the 19th day of a government shutdown sparked by Trump's demand for $5.7 billion for a border wall.

"I asked what is going to happen in 30 days if I quickly open things up, are you going to approve Border Security which includes a Wall or Steel Barrier? Nancy said, NO. I said bye-bye, nothing else works!" Trump wrote on Twitter.
Well, I guess that's it.

Anyone think Trump will declare an emergency and do it himself?
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Re: President Trump May Use Military to Build Border Wall

Post by Rob Lister » Wed Jan 09, 2019 10:23 pm

Skeeve wrote:
Wed Jan 09, 2019 10:00 pm

Anyone think Trump will declare an emergency and do it himself?
me.

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Re: President Trump May Use Military to Build Border Wall

Post by Abdul Alhazred » Thu Jan 10, 2019 12:28 am

Skeeve wrote:
Wed Jan 09, 2019 10:00 pm
Anyone think Trump will declare an emergency and do it himself?
You mean like with his own bare hands? :)
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Re: President Trump May Use Military to Build Border Wall

Post by Skeeve » Thu Jan 10, 2019 12:34 am

Rob Lister wrote:
Wed Jan 09, 2019 10:23 pm
Skeeve wrote:
Wed Jan 09, 2019 10:00 pm

Anyone think Trump will declare an emergency and do it himself?
me.
I suspect he probably will...
and I suspect the democrats may try to use this as their reason for impeachment.

Then again maybe not.
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Re: President Trump May Use Military to Build Border Wall

Post by Anaxagoras » Thu Jan 10, 2019 1:30 am

Rob Lister wrote:
Wed Jan 09, 2019 10:23 pm
Skeeve wrote:
Wed Jan 09, 2019 10:00 pm

Anyone think Trump will declare an emergency and do it himself?
me.
There's a bit of a problem with this idea, in that it would set a precedent. If a president can bypass congress to fund anything by declaring it a "national emergency", those powers could be used by future presidents for other things.
For days prior to the speech, the president had signaled his intent to declare a national state of emergency. “We’re looking at a national emergency because we have a national emergency. Just read the papers,” Trump told reporters on Sunday. Over the weekend, legal experts debated whether Elizabeth Goitein, co-director of the Liberty and National Security Program at the Brennan Center for Justice, or Bruce Ackerman of Yale Law School had the better of the claims around the scope of the president’s legal authority to make such a declaration. The question, it seemed, would ultimately come down to what the Supreme Court might determine. But as all that academic analysis was happening, a funny thing also occurred: Conservative thinkers actually recognized the enormous threat to our constitutional system that such an emergency declaration without an actual emergency would prose. Former Judge Andrew Napolitano, for one, explained on Fox News how under the system Trump is proposing, Barack Obama might have declared a state of emergency to address health care reform, “but obviously he didn’t, because he couldn’t.” David French agreed. Jonah Goldberg argued that it would be catastrophic for Trump to arrogate such powers to himself. Senate Republicans seemed to concur, with obvious hedges: “I’m confident he could declare a national emergency,” Sen. John Cornyn told CNN. “But what that may mean in terms of adding new elements to this, in terms of court hearings and litigation that may carry this on for weeks and months and years. To me, injecting a new element in this just makes it more complicated.” Sen. Susan Collins of Maine added that although the law provides the president with emergency powers, “the administration should not act on a claim of dubious constitutional authority.” Again, surprisingly, Trump seems to have listened.
So he’s floating the possibility of declaring a state of emergency, using a “military version” of eminent domain to seize private land along the border, and building the wall without congressional consent. This would be a serious mistake — a lawless abuse of power that would almost certainly be blocked by the courts (including by Trump-appointed judges). In the remote chance it passed legal review, his declaration would have malignant effects on the American constitutional structure. He would enable future presidents to wield vast powers at a whim, shaking the president loose from his constitutional bonds once and for all.

The legal analysis here is relatively simple. The president does not have the constitutional or statutory authority to unilaterally declare an emergency under these facts, seize private land, and spend money to build a wall.
The constitutional question was settled during the Korean War. At the height of the conflict — when the United States was locked in a grueling land conflict with hundreds of thousands of Chinese and North Korean troops — President Truman attempted to “take possession of and operate most of the nation’s steel mills” to avoid a strike by the United Steelworkers of America.

The necessity of steel to modern military operations is too obvious to require explanation, but the Supreme Court still blocked the president’s takeover. Justice Black, writing for the majority, declared that the president’s authority to act must derive from an “act of Congress or from the Constitution itself.” Since there was no specific enabling statute, Truman attempted to rely on inherent executive powers and his authority as commander-in-chief. The Court rejected his arguments:
I think he probably won't declare an emergency. It could just be a bluff. If he does though, I think he ends up losing in the courts.
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Re: President Trump May Use Military to Build Border Wall

Post by Doctor X » Thu Jan 10, 2019 1:54 am

A conservative counter to the liberal Slate's eschaton is:
The concern is well founded even if the conclusion is not. Congress has refused the funds needed for the wall, so Trump is openly claiming the right to unilaterally order construction by declaring a national emergency. On its face, that order would undermine the core role of Congress in our system of checks and balances. I happen to agree that an emergency declaration to build the wall is unwise and unnecessary. However, the declaration is not unconstitutional. Schiff, now chairman of the House Intelligence Committee, insists that Trump “does not have the power to execute” this order because “if Harry Truman could not nationalize the steel industry during wartime, this president does not have the power to declare an emergency and build a multibillion dollar wall on the border.”

The problem is Trump does have that power because Congress gave it to him. Schiff is referring to the historic case of Youngstown Sheet and Tube Company versus Charles Sawyer, in which the Supreme Court rejected the use of inherent executive powers by President Truman to seize steel mills during a labor dispute. He wanted to claim a national security emergency if steel production halted during the Korean War. In a powerful check on executive authority, the Supreme Court rejected his rationale for unilateral action. The Supreme Court was correct. But that was in 1952.

More than two decades later, Congress expressly gave presidents the authority to declare such emergencies and act unilaterally. The 1976 National Emergencies Act gives presidents sweeping authority as well as allowance in federal regulations to declare an “immigration emergency” to deal with an “influx of aliens which either is of such magnitude or exhibits such other characteristics that effective administration of the immigration laws of the United States is beyond the existing capabilities” of immigration authorities “in the affected area or areas.” Rather on point, that. The basis for such an invocation generally includes the “likelihood of continued growth in the magnitude of the influx,” rising criminal activity, as well as high “demands on law enforcement agencies” and “other circumstances.”

Democrats have not objected to use of this authority regularly by past presidents, including roughly 30 such emergencies that continue to this day. Other statutes afford additional emergency powers. Indeed, a report by the Congressional Research Service in 2007 stated, “Under the powers delegated by such statutes, the president may seize property, organize and control the means of production, seize commodities, assign military forces abroad, institute martial law, seize and control all transportation and communication, regulate the operation of private enterprise, restrict travel, and, in a variety of ways, control the lives of United States citizens.”

The Swill
This will be something, if it happens, that the courts will feast on. Expect an injunction from a "Liberal Federal Court!11!!" then back-and-forth until we get to SCOTUS, assuming they will hear it. Trump will, somewhat legitimately, declare "victory but for" the courts which will satisfy the "base" that he tried, and he needs their help to turn over the federal courts. Dems, of course, will claim they stopped him even if, as in the case of the travel ban, he ends up winning in the courts in the end.

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Re: President Trump May Use Military to Build Border Wall

Post by Anaxagoras » Thu Jan 10, 2019 2:25 am

That "immigration emergency" thingy doesn't seem like it would do much.

https://www.vox.com/policy-and-politics ... tdown-wall
Or, Trump could declare a “state of immigration emergency,” which unlocks an immigration emergency fund. It’s generally supposed to be used to help states feed and house migrants and process their claims, but Scheppele said that it is “vaguely worded enough to permit an edgy interpretation” that could get the funds for the wall. The issue there is that the fund only has about $20 million at the moment, not enough for Trump’s wall.
$20 million is nowhere close to what he wants.

BTW, I just checked where that crowdfunding thing to build the wall is at. As of this moment it's at $19,858,974. Call it $20 million. The fund for immigration-related emergencies would double that to $40 million. Less than 1% of the $5 billion he says he wants.
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Re: President Trump May Use Military to Build Border Wall

Post by Doctor X » Thu Jan 10, 2019 2:29 am

Which is why he can blame the Democrats. However, he is not limited to those funds as explained in the Turley article.

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Re: President Trump May Use Military to Build Border Wall

Post by Skeeve » Thu Jan 10, 2019 2:54 am

Doctor X wrote:...
The 1976 National Emergencies Act gives presidents sweeping authority as well as allowance in federal regulations to declare an “immigration emergency” to deal with an “influx of aliens...
Okay who ran congress back in 1976?
Senate: Dem. 61, Rep. 42, Ind. 1, and 1 Conservitive.
House: Democratic: 291 (majority), Republican: 144

So the party of Nancy et all have only them selves to blame...


Update to add link: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/94th_Unit ... s_Congress
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