Alexandria Ocasio-Cortez's Very Own Thread

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Re: Alexandria Ocasio-Cortez's Very Own Thread

Post by WildCat » Thu Dec 27, 2018 12:43 am

What is Democratic Socialism?
Social ownership could take many forms, such as worker-owned cooperatives or publicly owned enterprises managed by workers and consumer representatives. Democratic socialists favor as much decentralization as possible. While the large concentrations of capital in industries such as energy and steel may necessitate some form of state ownership, many consumer-goods industries might be best run as cooperatives.
Not much room for private ownership of businesses there is there?
Socialists have been among the harshest critics of authoritarian Communist states. Just because their bureaucratic elites called them “socialist” did not make it so; they also called their regimes “democratic.” Democratic socialists always opposed the ruling party-states of those societies, just as we oppose the ruling classes of capitalist societies. We applaud the democratic revolutions that have transformed the former Communist bloc. However, the improvement of people’s lives requires real democracy without ethnic rivalries and/or new forms of authoritarianism. Democratic socialists will continue to play a key role in that struggle throughout the world.

Moreover, the fall of Communism should not blind us to injustices at home. We cannot allow all radicalism to be dismissed as “Communist.” That suppression of dissent and diversity undermines America’s ability to live up to its promise of equality of opportunity, not to mention the freedoms of speech and assembly.
You see, they just didn't implement it the right way. But you can trust the Democratic Socialists to do it the right way! How many times have we seen this "no true Socialist/Communist" fallacy?
In the short term we can’t eliminate private corporations, but we can bring them under greater democratic control.
Implicit in that statement is that long-term the elimination of private corporations is indeed the goal.
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Re: Alexandria Ocasio-Cortez's Very Own Thread

Post by gnome » Thu Dec 27, 2018 1:21 am

Alright, I'm more or less convinced.

Now I gotta keep straight "Democratic Socialist" <> "Social Democrat".
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Re: Alexandria Ocasio-Cortez's Very Own Thread

Post by Abdul Alhazred » Thu Dec 27, 2018 1:28 am

I'm convinced the modern sort of "Marxist" is very bad news indeed, but it really is disconnected from the very idea of a workers' state.
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Re: Alexandria Ocasio-Cortez's Very Own Thread

Post by xouper » Thu Dec 27, 2018 3:25 am

Rob Lister wrote:
Wed Dec 26, 2018 12:06 am
I'm pretty sure she ain't stupid.
Spoiler:
Ocasio-Cortez attended Yorktown High School, graduating in 2007,[17] where she won second prize in the Intel International Science and Engineering Fair with a microbiology research project on the effect of antioxidants on C. elegans' lifespan.[18] As a result, the International Astronomical Union named a small asteroid after her: 23238 Ocasio-Cortez.[19][20] In high school, she took part in the National Hispanic Institute's Lorenzo de Zavala (LDZ) Youth Legislative Session. She later became the LDZ Secretary of State while she attended Boston University. Ocasio-Cortez had a John F. Lopez Fellowship.[21] In 2008, while Ocasio-Cortez was a sophomore at Boston University, her father died of lung cancer.[22][23] During college, she was an intern in the immigration office of U.S. Senator Ted Kennedy.[24] She graduated cum laude from Boston University's College of Arts and Sciences in 2011 with a bachelor's degree in international relations and a minor in economics.[21][25][26]
sparks wrote:
Wed Dec 26, 2018 12:19 am
Doesn't look like it to me either.
WildCat wrote:
Wed Dec 26, 2018 2:02 am
There's quite a dichotomy between her credentials and what she says.
Rob Lister wrote:
Wed Dec 26, 2018 2:14 am
She's saying what she thinks will get her elected.
I'm pretty sure she IS stupid, even if her motive for saying it is to get elected.

Here's an example of what she has said:
During the interview, Ocasio-Cortez said, "Unemployment is low because everyone has two jobs. . . . "
:lmao: :pound_head:

How can anyone not see the stupid in her statement?

She should demand a refund of her college tuition.

In case anyone needs to see it, here's a rebuttal to her "claim":

https://www.politifact.com/truth-o-mete ... unts-abou/

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Re: Alexandria Ocasio-Cortez's Very Own Thread

Post by Anaxagoras » Thu Dec 27, 2018 4:40 am

gnome wrote:
Wed Dec 26, 2018 11:26 pm
WildCat wrote:
Wed Dec 26, 2018 3:16 pm
Abdul Alhazred wrote:
Wed Dec 26, 2018 3:11 pm
"Democratic Socialists" (the congressional caucus and allies) is a bait and switch name.
That's not what she is a member of. She is a member of the Democratic Socialists of America, they are an anti-Capitalism, pro-Marxism, genuine Socialist organization. And that's according to their own web site!

https://www.dsausa.org/

It amazes me that people deny what they are, even as they will happily tell you themselves who they are.
I'm not partial to their platform, but maybe you could point me to the pro-Marxist part that's according to their own statements?

The totalitarian part would be good to see too.

They wouldn't get my support, but I see no need to exaggerate, unless I didn't look closely enough.
Yeah, it looks like a minor variation on Marxism.
https://www.dsausa.org/about-us/what-is ... socialism/
Private corporations seem to be a permanent fixture in the US, so why work towards socialism?

In the short term we can’t eliminate private corporations, but we can bring them under greater democratic control. The government could use regulations and tax incentives to encourage companies to act in the public interest and outlaw destructive activities such as exporting jobs to low-wage countries and polluting our environment. Public pressure can also have a critical role to play in the struggle to hold corporations accountable. Most of all, socialists look to unions to make private business more accountable.
Translation: they do want to eliminate private corporation in the long term. In the meantime they'll settle for fettering them with all kinds of regulations and laws as a short-term solution. For the public good of course.
Why are there no models of democratic socialism?

Although no country has fully instituted democratic socialism, the socialist parties and labor movements of other countries have won many victories for their people. We can learn from the comprehensive welfare state maintained by the Swedes, from Canada’s national health care system, France’s nationwide childcare program, and Nicaragua’s literacy programs. Lastly, we can learn from efforts initiated right here in the US, such as the community health centers created by the government in the 1960s. They provided high quality family care, with community involvement in decision-making.
Nicaragua? Seriously? They cite their "literacy program" as something we could learn from? OK, that's cute. I assume they wanted to cite something other than a Western European or North American country, but realisticly speaking a "literacy program" is something for an undeveloped country that doesn't already have universal literacy.

I guess they're also saying, admitting, that no country has "fully instituted democratic socialism" so they aren't talking about the Nordic model. Good to know.
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Re: Alexandria Ocasio-Cortez's Very Own Thread

Post by Anaxagoras » Thu Dec 27, 2018 4:50 am

xouper wrote:
Thu Dec 27, 2018 3:25 am
I'm pretty sure she IS stupid, even if her motive for saying it is to get elected.

Here's an example of what she has said:
During the interview, Ocasio-Cortez said, "Unemployment is low because everyone has two jobs. . . . "
:lmao: :pound_head:

How can anyone not see the stupid in her statement?

She should demand a refund of her college tuition.

In case anyone needs to see it, here's a rebuttal to her "claim":

https://www.politifact.com/truth-o-mete ... unts-abou/
OK. Do you think Trump is stupid? Cuz I can find statements he's made that make the quote above look like Einstein by comparison.

I assume that you will stipulate that.
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Re: Alexandria Ocasio-Cortez's Very Own Thread

Post by xouper » Thu Dec 27, 2018 5:10 am

Anaxagoras wrote:
Thu Dec 27, 2018 4:50 am
xouper wrote:
Thu Dec 27, 2018 3:25 am
I'm pretty sure she IS stupid, even if her motive for saying it is to get elected.

Here's an example of what she has said:
During the interview, Ocasio-Cortez said, "Unemployment is low because everyone has two jobs. . . . "
:lmao: :pound_head:

How can anyone not see the stupid in her statement?

She should demand a refund of her college tuition.

In case anyone needs to see it, here's a rebuttal to her "claim":

https://www.politifact.com/truth-o-mete ... unts-abou/
OK. Do you think Trump is stupid? Cuz I can find statements he's made that make the quote above look like Einstein by comparison.

I assume that you will stipulate that.
I cannot stipulate until I see what you are referring to.

Smart people sometimes say stupid things. Trump is not stupid, even though he sometimes says things that some people interpret as stupid. Perhaps it would help if you quoted an example of what you are referring to and then I will try to weasel out of it. :P

In Sandy's case, the stupid goes much deeper. She's not stupid because she sometimes says stupid things. She sometimes says stupid things because she has an underlying lack of understanding of things that matter. The mere fact that she's a socialist is prima facie evidence of that.

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Re: Alexandria Ocasio-Cortez's Very Own Thread

Post by Anaxagoras » Thu Dec 27, 2018 6:11 am

xouper wrote:
Thu Dec 27, 2018 5:10 am
Anaxagoras wrote:
Thu Dec 27, 2018 4:50 am
xouper wrote:
Thu Dec 27, 2018 3:25 am
I'm pretty sure she IS stupid, even if her motive for saying it is to get elected.

Here's an example of what she has said:
During the interview, Ocasio-Cortez said, "Unemployment is low because everyone has two jobs. . . . "
:lmao: :pound_head:

How can anyone not see the stupid in her statement?

She should demand a refund of her college tuition.

In case anyone needs to see it, here's a rebuttal to her "claim":

https://www.politifact.com/truth-o-mete ... unts-abou/
OK. Do you think Trump is stupid? Cuz I can find statements he's made that make the quote above look like Einstein by comparison.

I assume that you will stipulate that.
I cannot stipulate until I see what you are referring to.

Smart people sometimes say stupid things. Trump is not stupid, even though he sometimes says things that some people interpret as stupid. Perhaps it would help if you quoted an example of what you are referring to and then I will try to weasel out of it. :P

In Sandy's case, the stupid goes much deeper. She's not stupid because she sometimes says stupid things. She sometimes says stupid things because she has an underlying lack of understanding of things that matter. The mere fact that she's a socialist is prima facie evidence of that.
I could give lots of examples, from stuff about vaccines to stuff about Obama's birth certificate, and other things. Many other things. but I really don't want to bother right now because you've already given away the game with "Smart people sometimes say stupid things." Yes, they do. But you're moving the goalposts now because you presented her statement as evidence that she's stupid, but now you admit that sometimes even smart people say stupid things. I'm going to agree with your statement and simply assert that one stupid statement is not sufficient evidence that she is stupid. By the way, I also believe that Trump has "an underlying lack of understanding of things that matter" regarding many subjects. The fact that she's a socialist by itself, meh. Not really. I'm not a socialist, by the way. But some very smart people have been socialists. Hitchens was a socialist, at least in his early life. Probably not by the end.

Hell, if there's one person in the world that everyone agrees is "smart" it's Albert Einstein, right? He's sort of the personification of intelligence.

Guess what?

Political views of Albert Einstein

So, yeah. A smart person can be a socialist, and it is not prima facie evidence that they are not.
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Re: Alexandria Ocasio-Cortez's Very Own Thread

Post by Doctor X » Thu Dec 27, 2018 7:26 am

"It is a process. . . ."

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Re: Alexandria Ocasio-Cortez's Very Own Thread

Post by xouper » Thu Dec 27, 2018 10:51 am

Anaxagoras wrote:
Thu Dec 27, 2018 6:11 am
Hell, if there's one person in the world that everyone agrees is "smart" it's Albert Einstein, right? He's sort of the personification of intelligence.

Guess what?

Political views of Albert Einstein

So, yeah. A smart person can be a socialist, and it is not prima facie evidence that they are not.
I am persuaded by your argument and evidence that sometimes even smart people can be stupid about economics and that you have soundly refuted my original assertion (as I had stated it).

Well done. I had forgotten that fact about Einstein. Thanks.

It's ironic that I was just saying that sometimes smart people say something stupid, and then I went and did exactly that.

Therefore, since my original assertion was wrong, I must revise my assertion accordingly: Being a socialist is prima facie evidence of a failure to understand how the US economy works. The problem here is that Sandy, unlike Einstein, was elected to legislate matters related to the US economy, and I stand by my assertion that she is stupid about economics.

I am still not persuaded that Sandy is smart or that Trump is stupid.

I've been waiting for you to quibble about the definition of "smart" and "stupid", since it seems we've been using those two terms rather loosely and ambiguously. For example, intelligence is not synonymous with knowledge.

No matter, it's just a conversation where everyone gets to run their mouth. I'm sure neither Sandy nor Einstein give a shit what I think. :)

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Re: Alexandria Ocasio-Cortez's Very Own Thread

Post by Anaxagoras » Thu Dec 27, 2018 11:40 am

Oh, just for the record, I'm not even arguing that she is particularly smart. I don't know her that well. Just for the more limited proposition that I haven't yet seen enough evidence to convince me that she's stupid.
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Re: Alexandria Ocasio-Cortez's Very Own Thread

Post by xouper » Thu Dec 27, 2018 12:07 pm

Anaxagoras wrote:
Thu Dec 27, 2018 11:40 am
Oh, just for the record, I'm not even arguing that she is particularly smart. I don't know her that well. Just for the more limited proposition that I haven't yet seen enough evidence to convince me that she's stupid.
That's a legitimate skeptical position to take. :)

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Re: Alexandria Ocasio-Cortez's Very Own Thread

Post by Abdul Alhazred » Thu Dec 27, 2018 2:40 pm

Hell, a smart political writer can be a socialist.

I'm thinking of George Orwell.

But if he lived today he'd probably be labeled "alt right" for those nasty things he said in The Road to Wigan Pier about bearded sandal wearing carrot juice drinkers giving the cause a bad name.

And although he never dwelt on the subject, he implied disparagement of sodomites a few times. :BigGrin3:
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Re: Alexandria Ocasio-Cortez's Very Own Thread

Post by shuize » Fri Dec 28, 2018 12:16 am

Abdul Alhazred wrote:
Thu Dec 27, 2018 2:40 pm
Hell, a smart political writer can be a socialist.

I'm thinking of George Orwell.

But if he lived today he'd probably be labeled "alt right" for those nasty things he said in The Road to Wigan Pier about bearded sandal wearing carrot juice drinkers giving the cause a bad name.
Yes, I'm actually a bit surprised the progressives haven't come after Animal Farm and 1984 yet for suggesting socialism isn't always just sweetness and light.

Or maybe I'm just not "woke" enough to see it.

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Re: Alexandria Ocasio-Cortez's Very Own Thread

Post by Abdul Alhazred » Fri Dec 28, 2018 12:36 am

Naah.

At least in USA academe, 1984 is always an allegory for Republicanism run wild.
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Re: Alexandria Ocasio-Cortez's Very Own Thread

Post by Doctor X » Fri Dec 28, 2018 11:56 am

shuize wrote:
Fri Dec 28, 2018 12:16 am
Yes, I'm actually a bit surprised the progressives haven't come after Animal Farm and 1984 yet for suggesting socialism isn't always just sweetness and light.
It would be like white supremacists citing Mein Kampf for being the racist rantings of a sociopath.

Still, they tend to claim that Animal Farm and 1984 are against "totalitarianism" and not socialism. Those depict the "wrong socialism" that "has never been tried."

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Re: Alexandria Ocasio-Cortez's Very Own Thread

Post by Skeeve » Fri Dec 28, 2018 12:45 pm

xouper wrote:
Thu Dec 27, 2018 3:25 am
Rob Lister wrote:
Wed Dec 26, 2018 12:06 am
I'm pretty sure she ain't stupid.
Spoiler:
Ocasio-Cortez attended Yorktown High School, graduating in 2007,[17] where she won second prize in the Intel International Science and Engineering Fair with a microbiology research project on the effect of antioxidants on C. elegans' lifespan.[18] As a result, the International Astronomical Union named a small asteroid after her: 23238 Ocasio-Cortez.[19][20] In high school, she took part in the National Hispanic Institute's Lorenzo de Zavala (LDZ) Youth Legislative Session. She later became the LDZ Secretary of State while she attended Boston University. Ocasio-Cortez had a John F. Lopez Fellowship.[21] In 2008, while Ocasio-Cortez was a sophomore at Boston University, her father died of lung cancer.[22][23] During college, she was an intern in the immigration office of U.S. Senator Ted Kennedy.[24] She graduated cum laude from Boston University's College of Arts and Sciences in 2011 with a bachelor's degree in international relations and a minor in economics.[21][25][26]
sparks wrote:
Wed Dec 26, 2018 12:19 am
Doesn't look like it to me either.
WildCat wrote:
Wed Dec 26, 2018 2:02 am
There's quite a dichotomy between her credentials and what she says.
Rob Lister wrote:
Wed Dec 26, 2018 2:14 am
She's saying what she thinks will get her elected.
I'm pretty sure she IS stupid, even if her motive for saying it is to get elected.

Here's an example of what she has said:
During the interview, Ocasio-Cortez said, "Unemployment is low because everyone has two jobs. . . . "
:lmao: :pound_head:

How can anyone not see the stupid in her statement?

...snip...
That statement is a very clever appeal to emotion...not a statement of fact.
Then Skank Of America could start in...

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Re: Alexandria Ocasio-Cortez's Very Own Thread

Post by Anaxagoras » Sun Dec 30, 2018 2:00 pm

Media-created controversy of the moment:

Former senator Claire McCaskill calls Ocasio-Cortez a "thing" and an "object"!!!

Ocasio-Cortez responds to McCaskill: 'Pretty disappointing'
Rep.-elect Alexandria Ocasio-Cortez (D-N.Y.) fired back at former Sen. Claire McCaskill (D-Mo.) on Saturday after the outgoing senator criticized the freshman New York lawmaker for her embrace of the Democratic Party's left wing.

In a series of tweets, Ocasio-Cortez called McCaskill's rhetoric "pretty disappointing" and pointed out that progressive initiatives including a minimum wage increase won on the ballot in Missouri in November while McCaskill, a more conservative Democrat, lost.

"Not sure why fmr Sen. McCaskill keeps going on TV to call me a “thing” and “shiny object,” but it’s pretty disappointing," Ocasio-Cortez wrote Saturday.

"McCaskill promised she’d '100% back Trump up' on his anti-immigrant rhetoric & lost. In MO, almost all progressive ballot issues won," she continued.
Her flurry of tweets comes following an exit interview the former senator gave to CNN, in which McCaskill took direct aim at Ocasio-Cortez and the party's progressive wing.

"I'm a little confused why she's the thing,” McCaskill told CNN. “But it's a good example of what I'm talking about, a bright shiny new object, came out of nowhere and surprised people when she beat a very experienced congressman."

"The rhetoric is cheap. Getting results is a lot harder," McCaskill added.
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Re: Alexandria Ocasio-Cortez's Very Own Thread

Post by xouper » Wed Jan 02, 2019 2:06 am

Anaxagoras wrote:
Wed Dec 26, 2018 5:54 am
WildCat wrote:
Wed Dec 26, 2018 5:20 am
sparks wrote:
Wed Dec 26, 2018 3:39 am
Are we afraid of socialism WC? :)
Ask Venezuelans.
They're doing it wrong. No system works when the leadership is corrupt.

The Nordic countries on the other hand have managed to make it work very well.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nordic_model
Not everyone agrees with that, including Swedish historian Johan Norberg.
Sweden Isn't Socialist
John Stossel
Posted: Jan 01, 2019 12:01 AM

For years, I've heard American leftists say Sweden is proof that socialism works, that it doesn't have to turn out as badly as the Soviet Union or Cuba or Venezuela did.

But that's not what Swedish historian Johan Norberg says in a new documentary and Stossel TV video.

"Sweden is not socialist -- because the government doesn't own the means of production. To see that, you have to go to Venezuela or Cuba or North Korea," says Norberg.

"We did have a period in the 1970s and 1980s when we had something that resembled socialism: a big government that taxed and spent heavily. And that's the period in Swedish history when our economy was going south."

Per capita GDP fell. Sweden's growth fell behind other countries. Inflation increased.

Even socialistic Swedes complained about the high taxes.

. . . Yet even those high taxes did not bring in enough money to fund Sweden's big welfare state.

"People couldn't get the pension that they thought they depended on for the future," recounts Norberg. "At that point the Swedish population just said, enough, we can't do this."

Sweden then reduced government's role.

They cut public spending, privatized the national rail network, abolished certain government monopolies, eliminated inheritance taxes and sold state-owned businesses like the maker of Absolut vodka.

They also reduced pension promises "so that it wasn't as unsustainable," adds Norberg.

. . . But Sweden's government doesn't run all those programs. "Having the government manage all of these things didn't work well."

So they privatized.

"We realized in Sweden that with these government monopolies, we don't get the innovation that we get when we have competition," says Norberg.

Sweden switched to a school voucher system. That allows parents to pick their kids' school and forced schools to compete for the voucher money.

"One result that we've seen is not just that the private schools are better," says Norberg, "but even public schools in the vicinity of private schools often improve, because they have to."

. . . Next time you hear democratic socialists talk about how socialist Sweden is, remind them that the big welfare state is funded by Swedes' free market practices, not their socialist ones.
Read the rest of the article to see more details how Sweden is not a socialist country.

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Re: Alexandria Ocasio-Cortez's Very Own Thread

Post by corplinx » Wed Jan 02, 2019 8:43 pm

Image