My turn for a TDS rant?

Lies, damned lies, and statistics.
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gnome
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Re: My turn for a TDS rant?

Post by gnome » Fri Dec 28, 2018 9:21 pm

I try to adhere to a consistent standard, but I'm probably as prone to such a bias as anyone here. Which is partly why I'm interested in what others think of it.
"If fighting is sure to result in victory, then you must fight! Sun Tzu said that, and I'd say he knows a little bit more about fighting than you do, pal, because he invented it, and then he perfected it so that no living man could best him in the ring of honor. Then, he used his fight money to buy two of every animal on earth, and then he herded them onto a boat, and then he beat the crap out of every single one. And from that day forward any time a bunch of animals are together in one place it's called a zoo! (Beat) Unless it's a farm!"
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Re: My turn for a TDS rant?

Post by xouper » Fri Dec 28, 2018 9:27 pm

Grammatron wrote:
Fri Dec 28, 2018 8:33 pm
gnome wrote:
Fri Dec 28, 2018 7:03 pm
I'll listen to a different suggestion on how the president's words could be parsed. How might I take it differently if I were less biased?
You would just ignore it like speeches made by other politicians, perhaps those who you do not have strong opinion on.

Politicians lie, embellish, misspeak, and selectively use data all the time. What makes this example different from others?

Now, before you reply please do not take my response to mean I do not care. I just think this is being far too selective with criticism. Do you parse the speeches of your local elected officials to the same degree?
I would like to add to that. When a politician "stretches" the truth, is he just boasting (or hyperbolating) or is he seriously trying to deceive, and secondly, how important are the consequences (or moral significance) of the "lie"?

For example, using the example in this thread, consider Trump's claim about the military pay raise and compare that to, say, Obama's claim, "If you like your doctor you can keep your doctor. Period." The difference is bigly significant.

Another example, one politician might erroneously say his inauguration crowds were bigger than his predecessor's. Another politician might say, "no one wants to take away your guns." I assume the difference is obvious. One lie is merely boasting and has no significant consequence. The lie about guns is a serious and intentional deception designed to disguise the harm they want to do to us.

Another example: "I did not have sex with that woman." Compare that with the lies about why the Benghazi embassy was attacked and four Americans murdered. Are those two kinds of lies morally equivalent? Of course not.

Now, I don't defend or endorse either kind of lie, but I try to be careful to save my derangement syndrome outrage for lies that have serious consequences.

Don't mind me, I'm just running my mouth. As always, Your Mileage May Vary™. 8)

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Re: My turn for a TDS rant?

Post by Abdul Alhazred » Fri Dec 28, 2018 10:38 pm

gnome wrote:
Fri Dec 28, 2018 7:03 pm
I'll listen to a different suggestion on how the president's words could be parsed. How might I take it differently if I were less biased?
So you're saying, you're not sure about voting for Trump next time?

Yet another case of Trump voter buyer's remorse.

:P
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Re: My turn for a TDS rant?

Post by Anaxagoras » Fri Dec 28, 2018 11:46 pm

It just seems so blatant in this case.

The "well, all politicians lie" response sounds like a recipe for just letting them get away with it. Granted, if you speak publicly a lot, even a generally honest person would probably make a few misstatements and errors of fact from time to time. I don't think that's what's happened here.
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Re: My turn for a TDS rant?

Post by gnome » Fri Dec 28, 2018 11:49 pm

What I'm hearing seems to be that it genuinely is BS, but I may be overreacting because many politicians of all stripes tell lies of greater consequence fairly often.

I think this could be a fair statement. I need to consider why this or examples like it cause such a strong reaction in me. I genuinely don't think it's as simple as "I don't like Republicans". I'll give it some thought and comment again.
"If fighting is sure to result in victory, then you must fight! Sun Tzu said that, and I'd say he knows a little bit more about fighting than you do, pal, because he invented it, and then he perfected it so that no living man could best him in the ring of honor. Then, he used his fight money to buy two of every animal on earth, and then he herded them onto a boat, and then he beat the crap out of every single one. And from that day forward any time a bunch of animals are together in one place it's called a zoo! (Beat) Unless it's a farm!"
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Re: My turn for a TDS rant?

Post by Grammatron » Sat Dec 29, 2018 9:36 am

Anaxagoras wrote:
Fri Dec 28, 2018 11:46 pm
It just seems so blatant in this case.

The "well, all politicians lie" response sounds like a recipe for just letting them get away with it.
For me it's not "well, all politicians lie" as I detest it all. It's that to me it seems that caring level seems to be partisan.

And I'm not perfect, I fall into that trap too, it just seems to be easier to recognize that in other than in oneself.
Granted, if you speak publicly a lot, even a generally honest person would probably make a few misstatements and errors of fact from time to time. I don't think that's what's happened here.
Agreed on both counts. But I don't think this is the worst lie in politics; probably just above average.

My comment really came from a place of trying to calm gnome's derangement down. He's right to be upset. I just think if this all it takes to go on a rant then it may be he's not paying attention and vetting the speeches of his other elective representatives and officials.

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Re: My turn for a TDS rant?

Post by gnome » Sat Dec 29, 2018 5:34 pm

I wonder if I feel more confident in going on a rant when there seems to be less wiggle room on the facts. Some of the more significant verbal propaganda has lots of nuances, "certain points of view" or ambiguous intent. I can understand people taking a different position on those more.

When a politician (and their spokesperson for that matter) makes frequent and casual factual claims that are easily refuted, I think it's kind of a red flag for me even if the significance is not high. It presents to me an image of someone that either doesn't care about details, or doesn't have a firm grip on reality, or both. I've met people like that in real life in contexts completely outside of politics and I have a similar reaction.

If someone who presents closer to my political flavor has a similar problem and I've remained silent, it doesn't stand out to me in memory. Though it could be selective perception as Grammatron suggests.
"If fighting is sure to result in victory, then you must fight! Sun Tzu said that, and I'd say he knows a little bit more about fighting than you do, pal, because he invented it, and then he perfected it so that no living man could best him in the ring of honor. Then, he used his fight money to buy two of every animal on earth, and then he herded them onto a boat, and then he beat the crap out of every single one. And from that day forward any time a bunch of animals are together in one place it's called a zoo! (Beat) Unless it's a farm!"
--Soldier, TF2

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Re: My turn for a TDS rant?

Post by Abdul Alhazred » Sat Dec 29, 2018 5:40 pm

Geez gnome. What's the matter with you? :evil:

Even when you go on a crazed rant you sound like you're trying to be reasonable. :HoppingMad2:
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Re: My turn for a TDS rant?

Post by gnome » Sat Dec 29, 2018 5:42 pm

I know, it's like a bunch of nerds researching and discussing how to riot.
"If fighting is sure to result in victory, then you must fight! Sun Tzu said that, and I'd say he knows a little bit more about fighting than you do, pal, because he invented it, and then he perfected it so that no living man could best him in the ring of honor. Then, he used his fight money to buy two of every animal on earth, and then he herded them onto a boat, and then he beat the crap out of every single one. And from that day forward any time a bunch of animals are together in one place it's called a zoo! (Beat) Unless it's a farm!"
--Soldier, TF2

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Re: My turn for a TDS rant?

Post by Grammatron » Wed Jan 02, 2019 10:19 pm

gnome wrote:
Sat Dec 29, 2018 5:34 pm
I wonder if I feel more confident in going on a rant when there seems to be less wiggle room on the facts. Some of the more significant verbal propaganda has lots of nuances, "certain points of view" or ambiguous intent. I can understand people taking a different position on those more.

When a politician (and their spokesperson for that matter) makes frequent and casual factual claims that are easily refuted, I think it's kind of a red flag for me even if the significance is not high. It presents to me an image of someone that either doesn't care about details, or doesn't have a firm grip on reality, or both. I've met people like that in real life in contexts completely outside of politics and I have a similar reaction.

If someone who presents closer to my political flavor has a similar problem and I've remained silent, it doesn't stand out to me in memory. Though it could be selective perception as Grammatron suggests.
Have you ever felt the same way about Obama during his 8 year of presidency?

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Re: My turn for a TDS rant?

Post by gnome » Thu Jan 03, 2019 1:08 am

I have not felt that he made frequent and casual false claims, no. I'm sure that he has lied or been deceptive at times, not quite the same. I'm noting that I seem to react to a particular kind of lie.
"If fighting is sure to result in victory, then you must fight! Sun Tzu said that, and I'd say he knows a little bit more about fighting than you do, pal, because he invented it, and then he perfected it so that no living man could best him in the ring of honor. Then, he used his fight money to buy two of every animal on earth, and then he herded them onto a boat, and then he beat the crap out of every single one. And from that day forward any time a bunch of animals are together in one place it's called a zoo! (Beat) Unless it's a farm!"
--Soldier, TF2

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Re: My turn for a TDS rant?

Post by Doctor X » Thu Jan 03, 2019 5:46 am

He rather lied about Obamacare.

Did you miss that?

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Re: My turn for a TDS rant?

Post by Grammatron » Thu Jan 03, 2019 9:07 am

gnome wrote:
Thu Jan 03, 2019 1:08 am
I have not felt that he made frequent and casual false claims, no. I'm sure that he has lied or been deceptive at times, not quite the same. I'm noting that I seem to react to a particular kind of lie.
Obamacare is one as Doctor X has mentioned.

However, I think now you are referencing something a bit different, exposure and media coverage of the lies and deception.

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Re: My turn for a TDS rant?

Post by gnome » Thu Jan 03, 2019 9:11 pm

Actually "you can keep your doctor" is exactly the sort of statement I'm trying to make a distinction from. Evaluating it is somewhat ambiguous--for reasons I've argued here before. But to keep the discussion going, it amounts at worst to a false PROMISE. That's really not the kind of thing that gets my goat, and just as you say, the politicians do it all the time. Like Trump promising a better and cheaper replacement for Obamacare.

I'm talking about claims of objective fact, not a promise about the outcome of a policy.
"If fighting is sure to result in victory, then you must fight! Sun Tzu said that, and I'd say he knows a little bit more about fighting than you do, pal, because he invented it, and then he perfected it so that no living man could best him in the ring of honor. Then, he used his fight money to buy two of every animal on earth, and then he herded them onto a boat, and then he beat the crap out of every single one. And from that day forward any time a bunch of animals are together in one place it's called a zoo! (Beat) Unless it's a farm!"
--Soldier, TF2

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Re: My turn for a TDS rant?

Post by Grammatron » Thu Jan 03, 2019 9:14 pm

gnome wrote:
Thu Jan 03, 2019 9:11 pm
Actually "you can keep your doctor" is exactly the sort of statement I'm trying to make a distinction from. Evaluating it is somewhat ambiguous--for reasons I've argued here before. But to keep the discussion going, it amounts at worst to a false PROMISE. That's really not the kind of thing that gets my goat, and just as you say, the politicians do it all the time. Like Trump promising a better and cheaper replacement for Obamacare.

I'm talking about claims of objective fact, not a promise about the outcome of a policy.
Ok.

https://www.politifact.com/personalitie ... ing/false/

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Re: My turn for a TDS rant?

Post by Abdul Alhazred » Thu Jan 03, 2019 11:55 pm

Ambiguous?

It was a deliberate lie intended to get people to sit still for being fucked.
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Re: My turn for a TDS rant?

Post by Surprise » Fri Jan 04, 2019 9:44 pm

How do you impeach a president who has won perhaps the greatest election of all time, done nothing wrong (no Collusion with Russia, it was the Dems that Colluded), had the most successful first two years of any president, and is the most popular Republican in party history 93%?
TDS

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Re: My turn for a TDS rant?

Post by Doctor X » Fri Jan 04, 2019 9:57 pm

gnome wrote:
Thu Jan 03, 2019 9:11 pm
Actually "you can keep your doctor" is exactly the sort of statement I'm trying to make a distinction from.
Because it does not support you.
Evaluating it is somewhat ambiguous--for reasons I've argued here before.
Unsuccessfully. It is about as unambiguous as you can get.
But to keep the discussion going, it amounts at worst to a false PROMISE.
No, it was a:


I'm talking about claims of objective fact, . . .
That was a claim of objective fact. That you prefer it was not remains irrelevant to what is.

I will pray for you.

Now, since you have engaged in such fallacy with an abandon that would make a drunk sailor who abandoned his pants in the process of abandoning his post, presumably in Gram's Mom, blush, allow me to retort with my own tu quoque.

Your 嘘だ! claim:
But to keep the discussion going, it amounts at worst to a false PROMISE.
would apply to Trump's claims as well, would it not?

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"Doctor X is just treating you the way he treats everyone--as subhuman crap too dumb to breathe in after you breathe out."--Don
DocX: FTW.--sparks
"Doctor X wins again."--Pyrrho
"Never sorry to make a racist Fucktard cry."--His Humble MagNIfIcence
"It was the criticisms of Doc X, actually, that let me see more clearly how far the hypocrisy had gone."--clarsct
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Shit. That's going to end up in your sig."--Pyrrho
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Re: My turn for a TDS rant?

Post by ed » Fri Jan 04, 2019 10:18 pm

gnome wrote:
Thu Jan 03, 2019 9:11 pm
Actually "you can keep your doctor" is exactly the sort of statement I'm trying to make a distinction from. Evaluating it is somewhat ambiguous--for reasons I've argued here before. But to keep the discussion going, it amounts at worst to a false PROMISE. That's really not the kind of thing that gets my goat, and just as you say, the politicians do it all the time. Like Trump promising a better and cheaper replacement for Obamacare.

I'm talking about claims of objective fact, not a promise about the outcome of a policy.
It was a lie, pure and simple. It was a lie because he knew.
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Re: My turn for a TDS rant?

Post by gnome » Mon Jan 07, 2019 12:55 pm

Grammatron wrote:
Thu Jan 03, 2019 9:14 pm
gnome wrote:
Thu Jan 03, 2019 9:11 pm
Actually "you can keep your doctor" is exactly the sort of statement I'm trying to make a distinction from. Evaluating it is somewhat ambiguous--for reasons I've argued here before. But to keep the discussion going, it amounts at worst to a false PROMISE. That's really not the kind of thing that gets my goat, and just as you say, the politicians do it all the time. Like Trump promising a better and cheaper replacement for Obamacare.

I'm talking about claims of objective fact, not a promise about the outcome of a policy.
Ok.

https://www.politifact.com/personalitie ... ing/false/
Ok, a lot of those are examples of the kind I'm talking about. So I must stipulate that Obama has done so sometimes.
"If fighting is sure to result in victory, then you must fight! Sun Tzu said that, and I'd say he knows a little bit more about fighting than you do, pal, because he invented it, and then he perfected it so that no living man could best him in the ring of honor. Then, he used his fight money to buy two of every animal on earth, and then he herded them onto a boat, and then he beat the crap out of every single one. And from that day forward any time a bunch of animals are together in one place it's called a zoo! (Beat) Unless it's a farm!"
--Soldier, TF2