What precisely is wrong with Trump?

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Giz
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Re: What precisely is wrong with Trump?

Post by Giz » Tue Jan 15, 2019 8:43 pm

ed wrote:
Tue Jan 15, 2019 8:17 pm
Reagan. Didn't even have to think about it.
Well, he couldn't really, could he?


Jesting aside, it shows in their results.

Reagan got details wrong. But provided clear moral leadership on the big global picture.

Obama was perfectly capable of handling details (i.e. bin Laden raid etc) but was hopeless at the big picture due to his basic worldview being flawed.

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Re: What precisely is wrong with Trump?

Post by Giz » Tue Jan 15, 2019 8:43 pm

ed wrote:
Tue Jan 15, 2019 8:17 pm
Reagan. Didn't even have to think about it.
Well, he couldn't really, could he?


Jesting aside, it shows in their results.

Reagan got details wrong. But provided clear moral leadership on the big global picture.

Obama was perfectly capable of handling details (i.e. bin Laden raid etc) but was hopeless at the big picture due to his basic worldview being flawed.

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Re: What precisely is wrong with Trump?

Post by Witness » Mon Feb 04, 2019 2:08 am

'Willful Ignorance.' Inside President Trump's Troubled Intelligence Briefings

In the wake of President Donald Trump’s renewed attacks on the U.S. intelligence community this week, senior intelligence briefers are breaking two years of silence to warn that the President is endangering American security with what they say is a stubborn disregard for their assessments.

Citing multiple in-person episodes, these intelligence officials say Trump displays what one called “willful ignorance” when presented with analyses generated by America’s $81 billion-a-year intelligence services. The officials, who include analysts who prepare Trump’s briefs and the briefers themselves, describe futile attempts to keep his attention by using visual aids, confining some briefing points to two or three sentences, and repeating his name and title as frequently as possible.

What is most troubling, say these officials and others in government and on Capitol Hill who have been briefed on the episodes, are Trump’s angry reactions when he is given information that contradicts positions he has taken or beliefs he holds. Two intelligence officers even reported that they have been warned to avoid giving the President intelligence assessments that contradict stances he has taken in public.

That reaction was on display this week. At a Congressional hearing on national security threats, the leaders of all the major intelligence agencies, including the Directors of National Intelligence, the CIA and the FBI contradicted Trump on issues relating to North Korea, Russia, the Islamic State, and Iran. In response, Trump said the intelligence chiefs were “passive and naïve” and suggested they “should go back to school.”
http://time.com/5518947/donald-trump-in ... -security/

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Re: What precisely is wrong with Trump?

Post by ed » Mon Feb 04, 2019 2:48 am

Witness wrote:
Mon Feb 04, 2019 2:08 am
'Willful Ignorance.' Inside President Trump's Troubled Intelligence Briefings

In the wake of President Donald Trump’s renewed attacks on the U.S. intelligence community this week, senior intelligence briefers are breaking two years of silence to warn that the President is endangering American security with what they say is a stubborn disregard for their assessments.

Citing multiple in-person episodes, these intelligence officials say Trump displays what one called “willful ignorance” when presented with analyses generated by America’s $81 billion-a-year intelligence services. The officials, who include analysts who prepare Trump’s briefs and the briefers themselves, describe viewtopic.php?f=6&t=48746&sid=6a0e32144 ... =160futile attempts to keep his attention by using visual aids, confining some briefing points to two or three sentences, and repeating his name and title as frequently as possible.

What is most troubling, say these officials and others in government and on Capitol Hill who have been briefed on the episodes, are Trump’s angry reactions when he is given information that contradicts positions he has taken or beliefs he holds. Two intelligence officers even reported that they have been warned to avoid giving the President intelligence assessments that contradict stances he has taken in public.

That reaction was on display this week. At a Congressional hearing on national security threats, the leaders of all the major intelligence agencies, including the Directors of National Intelligence, the CIA and the FBI contradicted Trump on issues relating to North Korea, Russia, the Islamic State, and Iran. In response, Trump said the intelligence chiefs were “passive and naïve” and suggested they “should go back to school.”
http://time.com/5518947/donald-trump-in ... -security/
Sounds like fake news.

This
America’s $81 billion-a-year intelligence services
is supposed to convince me or piss me off?
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Re: What precisely is wrong with Trump?

Post by Anaxagoras » Mon Feb 04, 2019 3:21 am

Witness wrote:
Mon Feb 04, 2019 2:08 am
'Willful Ignorance.' Inside President Trump's Troubled Intelligence Briefings

In the wake of President Donald Trump’s renewed attacks on the U.S. intelligence community this week, senior intelligence briefers are breaking two years of silence to warn that the President is endangering American security with what they say is a stubborn disregard for their assessments.

Citing multiple in-person episodes, these intelligence officials say Trump displays what one called “willful ignorance” when presented with analyses generated by America’s $81 billion-a-year intelligence services. The officials, who include analysts who prepare Trump’s briefs and the briefers themselves, describe futile attempts to keep his attention by using visual aids, confining some briefing points to two or three sentences, and repeating his name and title as frequently as possible.

What is most troubling, say these officials and others in government and on Capitol Hill who have been briefed on the episodes, are Trump’s angry reactions when he is given information that contradicts positions he has taken or beliefs he holds. Two intelligence officers even reported that they have been warned to avoid giving the President intelligence assessments that contradict stances he has taken in public.

That reaction was on display this week. At a Congressional hearing on national security threats, the leaders of all the major intelligence agencies, including the Directors of National Intelligence, the CIA and the FBI contradicted Trump on issues relating to North Korea, Russia, the Islamic State, and Iran. In response, Trump said the intelligence chiefs were “passive and naïve” and suggested they “should go back to school.”
http://time.com/5518947/donald-trump-in ... -security/
Due to stories like, e.g., Buzzfeed's recent "scoop" that turned out to be bullshit, it's hard to place much faith in reports claiming to be sourced from anonymous "senior" officials these days.

Maybe this is true (it has the "ring of truthiness" to it) but it won't convince anyone who thinks the press generates too much "Fake News" to discredit the president.
A fool thinks himself to be wise, but a wise man knows himself to be a fool.
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Re: What precisely is wrong with Trump?

Post by Doctor X » Mon Feb 04, 2019 8:39 am

His concerns about Iran and China appear quite valid.

That does not mean his declaration of victory over ISIS and leaving is.

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Re: What precisely is wrong with Trump?

Post by Abdul Alhazred » Mon Feb 04, 2019 9:49 am

ed wrote:
Mon Feb 04, 2019 2:48 am
This
America’s $81 billion-a-year intelligence services
is supposed to convince me or piss me off?
$81 billion for something prohibited by the US constitution.
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Re: What precisely is wrong with Trump?

Post by ed » Mon Feb 04, 2019 12:55 pm

Anaxagoras wrote:
Mon Feb 04, 2019 3:21 am
Witness wrote:
Mon Feb 04, 2019 2:08 am
'Willful Ignorance.' Inside President Trump's Troubled Intelligence Briefings

http://time.com/5518947/donald-trump-in ... -security/
Due to stories like, e.g., Buzzfeed's recent "scoop" that turned out to be bullshit, it's hard to place much faith in reports claiming to be sourced from anonymous "senior" officials these days.

Maybe this is true (it has the "ring of truthiness" to it) but it won't convince anyone who thinks the press generates too much "Fake News" to discredit the president.
There have been a string of stories that suggest the basis for a coup d'etat. Recall the story about "senior officials" being prepared to not execute orders and the FBI investigating Trump while in office. I guess there are others.

A story like this is troubling as much as for it's actual appearence as for the content.

Basic question is "why should it be believed?" If the only reason is that it confirms a preexisting bias, as opposed to being vetted and appearing in, preferably, more than one reputable news outlet then one is justified in calling BS. Another sniff test is how long the story lasts. Serious shit like this would not vanish in a day or three.
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Re: What precisely is wrong with Trump?

Post by Witness » Tue Feb 05, 2019 1:42 am

It seems to me this is a reaction to Trump's unkind tweets (“Perhaps Intelligence should go back to school!”).

See, e. g., https://www.washingtonpost.com/politics ... 69d01e91b0 or https://www.newsweek.com/donald-trump-i ... ol-1311429.


For the subject at hand, another article:
Retired Admiral Says Donald Trump's 'Willful Ignorance' in Disregarding Intelligence Community 'Really Scares Me'

Retired Rear Admiral John Kirby criticized President Donald Trump’s disregard of the intelligence community on Wednesday, saying that it “worries” and “scares” him.

On Wednesday morning, Trump shot out a series of tweets that attacked the United States intelligence community. The president argued that those working in and leading the information gathering apparatus of the government are “naive” and “should go back to school” to better understand foreign threats.

Trump’s comments came after a Tuesday hearing, during which CIA Director Gina Haspel and Director of National Intelligence Dan Coats—both appointed by the president—briefed senators on international security threats facing the the nation. Joined by other top intelligence officials, they relayed a starkly different assessment on a range of foreign policy issues, such as Iran, North Korea and the Islamic State militant group (ISIS), from what Trump has said.

“When the president distances himself like that from his intelligence chiefs, it worries me on two fronts,” Kirby, who formerly served served as the U.S. Navy's chief of information and later as a spokesman for the State Department, told CNN. “One, it’s not a different taking of the facts, it’s willful ignorance,” he explained. “So it concerns me that my president, my commander-in-chief, isn’t absorbing the context that these guys provide.”

“Number two, I worry that it sends a strong message to our adversaries out there, particularly Russia and China, that there are huge gaps remaining in the national security decision-making apparatus in this country, and they can run right through those gaps and try to further sow discord and division among us,” Kirby continued. “That really scares me.”
https://www.newsweek.com/admiral-donald ... ty-1312193


But my knowledge of the subtleties of US & Trumpian politics is of course very weak, even if I find it weird to reveal internal disagreements in security matters through public tweets.
My 5 ¢.

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Re: What precisely is wrong with Trump?

Post by xouper » Tue Feb 05, 2019 1:52 am

Kirby does not cite any actual evidence of "willful ignorance" by Trump but instead seems to infer it from insufficient evidence. Not unlike the many (insufficiently evidenced) accusations that Trump is a racist. I'm not in a position to say Kirby's inference is wrong, I am merely expressing my concern about presenting opinions as facts.


Edited to fix a speeling error.
Last edited by xouper on Tue Feb 05, 2019 1:54 am, edited 2 times in total.

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Re: What precisely is wrong with Trump?

Post by Anaxagoras » Tue Feb 05, 2019 1:52 am

Witness wrote:
Tue Feb 05, 2019 1:42 am
It seems to me this is a reaction to Trump's unkind tweets (“Perhaps Intelligence should go back to school!”).

See, e. g., https://www.washingtonpost.com/politics ... 69d01e91b0 or https://www.newsweek.com/donald-trump-i ... ol-1311429.

. . .

But my knowledge of the subtleties of US & Trumpian politics is of course very weak, even if I find it weird to reveal internal disagreements in security matters through public tweets.
My 5 ¢.
Fwiw, I understand your point. It is highly unusual for a president to fued so publicly with his own administration.



Arguably, the intelligence branch is used to being deferred to or at least having their opinions be given great weight and respect by the president, so they may be feeling like this president doesn't treat them with the respect that their position entitles them to. . . .

OTOH, history shows that they aren't always right about everything. So maybe it's good for a president to have some skepticism about the "deep state".
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Re: What precisely is wrong with Trump?

Post by Doctor X » Tue Feb 05, 2019 2:30 am

Where they right when the Germans bombed Pearl Harbor?!

--J.D.
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"Doctor X is just treating you the way he treats everyone--as subhuman crap too dumb to breathe in after you breathe out."--Don
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Shit. That's going to end up in your sig."--Pyrrho
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Re: What precisely is wrong with Trump?

Post by Abdul Alhazred » Tue Feb 05, 2019 2:36 am

the intelligence branch
There's the problem right there.

Regarding them as a "branch" of government.

The Constitution says there are three and "intelligence community" isn't one of them.
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Re: What precisely is wrong with Trump?

Post by Surprise » Tue Feb 05, 2019 10:42 am

https://www.usatoday.com/story/news/pol ... 079009001/
WASHINGTON — President Trump's re-election campaign sought to cash in on the State of the Union address Tuesday night with a fundraising pitch — at bargain prices that dropped during the day.

After initially asking donors to send at least $35 in exchange for having their names scrolled during a live stream of the president's speech, the Trump campaign later send out an email solicitation saying only one dollar would do.

"Even if you choose to only give $1, the proof of your support will send shockwaves around the world as they see every American who proudly stands behind our President," said the pitch signed by the president's son, Eric Trump.

The fundraising technique is raising eyebrows from ethics watchdogs, who say the unprecedented attempt to raise money off an official White House event crosses a line.

“Donald Trump is commercializing and corrupting yet another national institution, making this just the latest disgraceful degradation by Trump of the presidency and our public institutions," said Robert Weissman, president, Public Citizen.
If there is a way to trash the office of POTUS, Trump will find it.

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Re: What precisely is wrong with Trump?

Post by Anaxagoras » Tue Feb 05, 2019 10:51 am

Abdul Alhazred wrote:
Tue Feb 05, 2019 2:36 am
the intelligence branch
There's the problem right there.

Regarding them as a "branch" of government.

The Constitution says there are three and "intelligence community" isn't one of them.
Well, they actually fall under the executive branch.
A fool thinks himself to be wise, but a wise man knows himself to be a fool.
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Re: What precisely is wrong with Trump?

Post by gnome » Tue Feb 05, 2019 11:44 am

Abdul Alhazred wrote:
Mon Feb 04, 2019 9:49 am
ed wrote:
Mon Feb 04, 2019 2:48 am
This
America’s $81 billion-a-year intelligence services
is supposed to convince me or piss me off?
$81 billion for something prohibited by the US constitution.
So much the worse if it's spent and then the results are thrown in the garbage bin next to the President's desk. It doesn't bother me so much if a president is skeptical or chooses policy other than their recommendations. In fact it's absolutely necessary sometimes. Not even wanting to listen to intelligence gathered at great expense and effort, possibly sometimes lives, seems folly.

But I too have become jaded by "insider stories" that turn out to be spurious. Either a higher standard of evidence is needed, or the time for that kind of story has passed.
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Re: What precisely is wrong with Trump?

Post by ed » Tue Feb 05, 2019 11:51 am

gnome wrote:
Tue Feb 05, 2019 11:44 am
Abdul Alhazred wrote:
Mon Feb 04, 2019 9:49 am
ed wrote:
Mon Feb 04, 2019 2:48 am
This
America’s $81 billion-a-year intelligence services
is supposed to convince me or piss me off?
$81 billion for something prohibited by the US constitution.
So much the worse if it's spent and then thrown in the garbage bin next to the President's desk. It doesn't bother me so much if a president is skeptical or chooses policy other than their recommendations. In fact it's absolutely necessary sometimes. Not even wanting to listen to intelligence gathered at great expense and effort, possibly sometimes lives, seems folly.

But I too have become jaded by "insider stories" that turn out to be spurious. Either a higher standard of evidence is needed, or the time for that kind of story has passed.
fi

Here is my take... if the intelligence community is run like the rest of government that 81bil could be reproduced with an efficiently run service for maybe 1 bil.
Where are they spending it? Well the NSA data center cost 1.5 bil. What does it do? Can't tell you. Did it stop the russians from throwing our election? No. Does it facilitate spying on you, personally? You betcha.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Utah_Data_Center

Color me cynical
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Re: What precisely is wrong with Trump?

Post by Anaxagoras » Tue Feb 05, 2019 12:03 pm

ed wrote:
Tue Feb 05, 2019 11:51 am
gnome wrote:
Tue Feb 05, 2019 11:44 am
Abdul Alhazred wrote:
Mon Feb 04, 2019 9:49 am
ed wrote:
Mon Feb 04, 2019 2:48 am
This
America’s $81 billion-a-year intelligence services
is supposed to convince me or piss me off?
$81 billion for something prohibited by the US constitution.
So much the worse if it's spent and then thrown in the garbage bin next to the President's desk. It doesn't bother me so much if a president is skeptical or chooses policy other than their recommendations. In fact it's absolutely necessary sometimes. Not even wanting to listen to intelligence gathered at great expense and effort, possibly sometimes lives, seems folly.

But I too have become jaded by "insider stories" that turn out to be spurious. Either a higher standard of evidence is needed, or the time for that kind of story has passed.
fi

Here is my take... if the intelligence community is run like the rest of government that 81bil could be reproduced with an efficiently run service for maybe 1 bil.
Where are they spending it? Well the NSA data center cost 1.5 bil. What does it do? Can't tell you. Did it stop the russians from throwing our election? No. Does it facilitate spying on you, personally? You betcha.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Utah_Data_Center

Color me cynical
Some expensive things like drones, spy satellites, and who knows what else are probably involved. Although the results are highly secret, they can probably get a good look at anything in the world that's visible from above.

A single spy satellite might cost $400 million. Then, the CIA has missions in almost every country (have you seen Homeland?)

Shit adds up. Maybe we do spend too much. I'm not an expert on how much we should be spending. The problem is, the people who are experts are probably also the people who want us to have every whiz bang thing they can dream up. Never ask a barber if you need a haircut, right?
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Re: What precisely is wrong with Trump?

Post by ed » Tue Feb 05, 2019 12:10 pm

Thats the point, isn't it? And isn't that the very definition of a Deep State? An entity whose prime directive is to increase itself, expand it's pervue and control?

I would take 10 bil and make a public announcement to the world that we are in the business of buying info. I'd say "hey, you come to us with the goods and we'll set you up for life and guarantee your well being. Awards are made from $1 (for Abdul's phone number) up. We'll pay a billion for delivery of all NK land forces, disarmed"

That is the way you manage an intelligence service.
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Re: What precisely is wrong with Trump?

Post by Abdul Alhazred » Tue Feb 05, 2019 12:53 pm

Anaxagoras wrote:
Tue Feb 05, 2019 10:51 am
Abdul Alhazred wrote:
Tue Feb 05, 2019 2:36 am
the intelligence branch
There's the problem right there.

Regarding them as a "branch" of government.

The Constitution says there are three and "intelligence community" isn't one of them.
Well, they actually fall under the executive branch.
You wouldn't know it to hear some of the rhetoric.
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