Gavin McInnes Files Defamation Lawsuit Against Southern Poverty Law Center

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Doctor X
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Re: Proud Boys Founder Files Defamation Lawsuit Against Southern Poverty Law Center

Post by Doctor X » Fri Feb 08, 2019 11:27 pm

Grammatron wrote:
Fri Feb 08, 2019 11:03 pm
If Facebook or Twitter censored a hypothetical Black and/or Muslim individual because of perceived ties to some extremist organization I am of the opinion that there would be no legal consequence.
The only way there could would be if we enter some Make Believe Scenario where people sign up and pay for access with specific stipulation of freedom of speech and all of that and then the company refuses it. Even then, the most damage one could argue for is a refund of the unused portion of that fee. I am unaware of any place that stupid. The standard TOS of any place basically affirms that, yes, you are a guest in a privately owned place that the owner can capriciously do whatever he wants with it.

I understand you do not argue otherwise, but it appears some think they can remake reality through statement. Same way I insist that I can park in that handicapped spot because the PATRIOTS WON THE SUPER BOWL!!!1!!!

The police and towing companies are, of course, haters. Probably Faider fans. Definitely anti-Freedom.

I digress.

THERE--JREF--was a great example of a forum that promised free thought and all of that and utterly failed to deliver it. It became "whatever D'Rat wikes and agrees with" along with various Kool Kidz who licked his hindquarters. Some, like UpChuck, lied about what they did.

And the legal recourse is what?

There are others that are worse. All one can do is recognize that such is not what it claims to be, pretends to be, mark it as hypocritical, then move on to watch Your Mom's Webcam.

But then, I do not know, maybe someone can indict Facebook in a Common Constitutional Law Court under RICO. . . .

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Re: Proud Boys Founder Files Defamation Lawsuit Against Southern Poverty Law Center

Post by xouper » Fri Feb 08, 2019 11:37 pm

So I can start a private company that provides a service to the public and then (say for example) deny service to Muslims (if and when they become identified as such).

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Re: Proud Boys Founder Files Defamation Lawsuit Against Southern Poverty Law Center

Post by Grammatron » Sat Feb 09, 2019 1:06 am

xouper wrote:
Fri Feb 08, 2019 11:37 pm
So I can start a private company that provides a service to the public and then (say for example) deny service to Muslims (if and when they become identified as such).
Not the way you've laid it out.

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Re: Proud Boys Founder Files Defamation Lawsuit Against Southern Poverty Law Center

Post by xouper » Sat Feb 09, 2019 1:22 am

Grammatron wrote:
Sat Feb 09, 2019 1:06 am
xouper wrote:
Fri Feb 08, 2019 11:37 pm
So I can start a private company that provides a service to the public and then (say for example) deny service to Muslims (if and when they become identified as such).
Not the way you've laid it out.
How about if my company denies service to MAGA hat wearers?

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Re: Gavin McInnes Files Defamation Lawsuit Against Southern Poverty Law Center

Post by Skeeve » Sun Feb 10, 2019 1:41 pm

An old article, but apparently Gavin was not the only one considering a suit against SPLC
'About 60 Organizations' Are Considering a Lawsuit Against the SPLC Following $3M Nawaz Settlement
No fewer than 60 organizations branded "hate groups" or otherwise attacked by the Southern Poverty Law Center (SPLC) are considering legal action against the left-wing smear factory, a Christian legal nonprofit leader confirmed to PJ Media on Tuesday. He suggested that the $3 million settlement and apology the SPLC gave to Maajid Nawaz and his Quilliam Foundation on Monday would encourage further legal action.

"We haven't filed anything against the SPLC, but I think a number of organizations have been considering filing lawsuits against the SPLC, because they have been doing to a lot of organizations exactly what they did to Maajid Nawaz," Mat Staver, founder and chairman of Liberty Counsel, told PJ Media on Tuesday.

Liberty Counsel filed a lawsuit against the charity navigation organization GuideStar for defamation after GuideStar adopted the SPLC's "hate group" list. That lawsuit is ongoing.
Oh yea, a bit more detail on that Suit they settled, and apologized for...
The Southern Poverty Law Center has lost all credibility
After years of smearing good people with false charges of bigotry, the Southern Poverty Law Center (SPLC) has finally been held to account. A former Islamic radical named Maajid Nawaz sued the center for including him in its bogus “Field Guide to Anti-Muslim Extremists,” and this week the SPLC agreed to pay him a $3.375 million settlement and issued a public apology.

The SPLC is a once-storied organization that did important work filing civil rights lawsuits against the Ku Klux Klan in the 1970s. But it has become a caricature of itself, labeling virtually anyone who does not fall in line with its left-wing ideology an “extremist” or “hate group.”

Nawaz is a case in point.
...
So how did he end up in the SPLC’s pseudo-guide to anti-Muslim bigots? His crime, apparently, is that he has become a leading critic of the radical Islamist ideology he once embraced. Thanks to his courage, the SPLC has been forced to pay a multimillion-dollar penalty and acknowledge in a statement that it was “wrong” and that Nawaz has “made valuable and important contributions to public discourse, including by promoting pluralism and condemning both anti-Muslim bigotry and Islamist extremism.”

Let’s hope this settlement is the first of many, because this is not the first time the SPLC has done this. In 2010, it placed the Family Research Council (FRC) — a conservative Christian advocacy group that opposes abortion and same-sex marriage — on its “hate map.” Two years later, a gunman walked into the FRC headquarters with the intention to “kill as many as possible and smear the Chick-fil-A sandwiches in victims’ faces.” He told the FBI that he had used the SPLC website to pick his target.
...
In 2014, the SPLC placed Ben Carson — later a Republican presidential candidate and now the current secretary of housing and urban development — on its “extremist watch list,” alongside neo-Nazis and white supremacists. After an uproar, the group removed him and apologized.

The SPLC also lists Charles Murray, a colleague of mine at the American Enterprise Institute and one of the most respected conservative intellectuals in the United States, on its website as a “White Nationalist.” Last year, an angry mob of students, many citing the SPLC’s designation, physically attacked Murray during a speech at Middlebury College. He escaped unharmed, but the liberal professor who invited him ended up in the hospital.
...
Little wonder that Nawaz was not just angry but also afraid about being designated an extremist by the SPLC. He told the Atlantic in 2016, “They put a target on my head. The kind of work that I do, if you tell the wrong kind of Muslims that I’m an extremist, then that means I’m a target.”
Yea, hopefully more people sue the shit out of the SPLC...
Karma is a bitch, and IMHO its their turn...YMMV.
Then Skank Of America could start in...

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Re: Proud Boys Founder Files Defamation Lawsuit Against Southern Poverty Law Center

Post by Grammatron » Tue Feb 12, 2019 6:10 pm

xouper wrote:
Sat Feb 09, 2019 1:22 am
Grammatron wrote:
Sat Feb 09, 2019 1:06 am
xouper wrote:
Fri Feb 08, 2019 11:37 pm
So I can start a private company that provides a service to the public and then (say for example) deny service to Muslims (if and when they become identified as such).
Not the way you've laid it out.
How about if my company denies service to MAGA hat wearers?
Seems like a version of "No Shirt, No Shoes, No Service"

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Re: Proud Boys Founder Files Defamation Lawsuit Against Southern Poverty Law Center

Post by xouper » Tue Feb 12, 2019 6:33 pm

Grammatron wrote:
Tue Feb 12, 2019 6:10 pm
xouper wrote:
Sat Feb 09, 2019 1:22 am
Grammatron wrote:
Sat Feb 09, 2019 1:06 am
xouper wrote:
Fri Feb 08, 2019 11:37 pm
So I can start a private company that provides a service to the public and then (say for example) deny service to Muslims (if and when they become identified as such).
Not the way you've laid it out.
How about if my company denies service to MAGA hat wearers?
Seems like a version of "No Shirt, No Shoes, No Service"
Sorry, perhaps I need to be more specific.

How about if my company serves anyone with a hat except those wearing a MAGA hat or any other hat that seems to be in support of Trump?

For example, anyone wearing one of these hats will be served:

Image
Image

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Re: Gavin McInnes Files Defamation Lawsuit Against Southern Poverty Law Center

Post by Grammatron » Tue Feb 12, 2019 6:59 pm

I would not have a problem with that.

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Re: Gavin McInnes Files Defamation Lawsuit Against Southern Poverty Law Center

Post by xouper » Tue Feb 12, 2019 7:29 pm

Grammatron wrote:
Tue Feb 12, 2019 6:59 pm
I would not have a problem with that.
OK. Please explain the difference in your two positions, why you would not have a problem if my company denied service to MAGA hat wearers but you do have a problem if my company denied service to Muslims?

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Re: Gavin McInnes Files Defamation Lawsuit Against Southern Poverty Law Center

Post by Abdul Alhazred » Tue Feb 12, 2019 7:42 pm

Discrimination is legal except when explicitly prohibited.

There are laws against religious discrimination but no general legal principle prohibiting discrimination.
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Re: Gavin McInnes Files Defamation Lawsuit Against Southern Poverty Law Center

Post by Grammatron » Tue Feb 12, 2019 7:47 pm

xouper wrote:
Tue Feb 12, 2019 7:29 pm
Grammatron wrote:
Tue Feb 12, 2019 6:59 pm
I would not have a problem with that.
OK. Please explain the difference in your two positions, why you would not have a problem if my company denied service to MAGA hat wearers but you do have a problem if my company denied service to Muslims?
It's simple, The Federal Civil Rights Act of 1964

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Re: Gavin McInnes Files Defamation Lawsuit Against Southern Poverty Law Center

Post by Doctor X » Tue Feb 12, 2019 8:37 pm

Someone does not understand the difference between a hat and a religion or ethnicity?

Wow.

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Re: Gavin McInnes Files Defamation Lawsuit Against Southern Poverty Law Center

Post by Nyarlathotep » Tue Feb 12, 2019 9:08 pm

Refusing to serve someone in a restaurant because of the political sentiment on their hat is a shitty thing to do. However, "a shitty thing to do" <> "should be illegal". If restaurant owners can't refuse people with MAGA (or Hillary) hats, how far does that go? Do they have to serve people covered in swastikas? How about people with no political symbols but excruciating body odor? Where does the restaurant owner's right to refuse service end?
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Re: Gavin McInnes Files Defamation Lawsuit Against Southern Poverty Law Center

Post by corplinx » Tue Feb 12, 2019 9:14 pm

Some republican asshole tried to make me leave his restaurant because of my "I'm With Her" shirt.

I showed him though.

I had his merchant account disabled by the processor because I told them he was racist.



I love Hillary's America!

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Re: Gavin McInnes Files Defamation Lawsuit Against Southern Poverty Law Center

Post by xouper » Wed Feb 13, 2019 7:53 am

Doctor X wrote:
Tue Feb 12, 2019 8:37 pm
Someone does not understand the difference between a hat and a religion or ethnicity?

Wow.
I fully understand the difference. I have a point to make about the difference between protected classes and unprotected classes of discrimination. I already knew the answers to my questions, but I wanted to make sure that's where the conversation was going. I used the same methodology as Socrates (although it's easier to do in person than on a message board). I am surprised you did not see that coming and instead assumed ignorance on my part. Shame on you.

Yes, I already knew that the law protects certain classes of viewpoint from discrimination and not others.

But I had to ask all those questions in order to get to this one:

How is it justifiable to protect some classes of viewpoint and not others? There is no such distinction in the First Amendment, so why do some groups of people have civil rights protection and not others?

I fully agree with prohibiting discrimination by religion, and other categories. But I would also include in that group political discrimination. To me it is hypocritical to prohibit religious viewpoint discrimination and not also political discrimination.

How is it legal for a company to deny service to a Trump supporter and not to a Muslim?

Example:
http://stateandcapitol.bangordailynews. ... -your-gas/

That is hypocritical.

That was the point I was leading up to.


Edited to fix a speeling error.
Last edited by xouper on Wed Feb 13, 2019 8:13 am, edited 1 time in total.

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Re: Gavin McInnes Files Defamation Lawsuit Against Southern Poverty Law Center

Post by xouper » Wed Feb 13, 2019 8:09 am

Grammatron wrote:
Tue Feb 12, 2019 7:47 pm
xouper wrote:
Tue Feb 12, 2019 7:29 pm
Grammatron wrote:
Tue Feb 12, 2019 6:59 pm
I would not have a problem with that.
OK. Please explain the difference in your two positions, why you would not have a problem if my company denied service to MAGA hat wearers but you do have a problem if my company denied service to Muslims?
It's simple, The Federal Civil Rights Act of 1964
That does not explain why you have a problem with one and not the other.

Do you always take your moral guidance from what is legal or not legal, or do your morals guide you in making laws? (Yes, I know you don't personally make the laws, but you are smart enough to get what I mean. I can explain further if necessary.)

As a practical matter, one normally chooses to follow the law even when it may seem immoral because the immediate consequence might not be worth it. But that's not my question here.

I am asking why you think political viewpoints should not also be prohibited from discrimination. To answer that it is legal, does not explain why are OK with that.

Let me ask another way: Why are you against laws that would prohibit discrimination based on political affiliation or viewpoint?

That's ultimately where I was headed with my line of questioning. But before I could ask that question, I had to make sure that was your position, and thus all the questions because there was still a chance that the conversation could have taken a different direction, and I have learned the hard way on this forum not assume the outcome. So I asked.

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Re: Gavin McInnes Files Defamation Lawsuit Against Southern Poverty Law Center

Post by Grammatron » Wed Feb 13, 2019 9:12 am

xouper wrote:
Wed Feb 13, 2019 8:09 am
Grammatron wrote:
Tue Feb 12, 2019 7:47 pm
xouper wrote:
Tue Feb 12, 2019 7:29 pm
Grammatron wrote:
Tue Feb 12, 2019 6:59 pm
I would not have a problem with that.
OK. Please explain the difference in your two positions, why you would not have a problem if my company denied service to MAGA hat wearers but you do have a problem if my company denied service to Muslims?
It's simple, The Federal Civil Rights Act of 1964
That does not explain why you have a problem with one and not the other.

Do you always take your moral guidance from what is legal or not legal, or do your morals guide you in making laws? (Yes, I know you don't personally make the laws, but you are smart enough to get what I mean. I can explain further if necessary.)

As a practical matter, one normally chooses to follow the law even when it may seem immoral because the immediate consequence might not be worth it. But that's not my question here.

I am asking why you think political viewpoints should not also be prohibited from discrimination. To answer that it is legal, does not explain why are OK with that.
You're diving into Philosophical matters now. I remind you of your question:
xouper wrote:
Fri Feb 08, 2019 10:53 pm

If Facebook or Twitter censored someone because (to choose two hypotheticals) they are black or Muslim, do you seriously propose there won't be legal consequences?

That necessitate bringing up laws.
Let me ask another way: Why are you against laws that would prohibit discrimination based on political affiliation or viewpoint?
Please rephrase the question because I have not established that to be my position.
That's ultimately where I was headed with my line of questioning. But before I could ask that question, I had to make sure that was your position, and thus all the questions because there was still a chance that the conversation could have taken a different direction, and I have learned the hard way on this forum not assume the outcome. So I asked.
I think you've assumed again :)

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Re: Gavin McInnes Files Defamation Lawsuit Against Southern Poverty Law Center

Post by xouper » Wed Feb 13, 2019 10:11 am

Grammatron wrote:
Wed Feb 13, 2019 9:12 am
xouper wrote:
Wed Feb 13, 2019 8:09 am
Let me ask another way: Why are you against laws that would prohibit discrimination based on political affiliation or viewpoint?
Please rephrase the question because I have not established that to be my position.
OK, please explain your position.

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Re: Gavin McInnes Files Defamation Lawsuit Against Southern Poverty Law Center

Post by Grammatron » Wed Feb 13, 2019 6:12 pm

xouper wrote:
Wed Feb 13, 2019 10:11 am
Grammatron wrote:
Wed Feb 13, 2019 9:12 am
xouper wrote:
Wed Feb 13, 2019 8:09 am
Let me ask another way: Why are you against laws that would prohibit discrimination based on political affiliation or viewpoint?
Please rephrase the question because I have not established that to be my position.
OK, please explain your position.
I think a business should be able to discriminate any way it wants.

However, many people in this country seem to disagree so I am willing to compromise and Federal Civil Rights Act is a good compromise. Maybe not in a philosophical vacuum but certainly within the context of USA's history and culture.

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Re: Gavin McInnes Files Defamation Lawsuit Against Southern Poverty Law Center

Post by xouper » Wed Feb 13, 2019 7:00 pm

Grammatron wrote:
Wed Feb 13, 2019 6:12 pm
xouper wrote:
Wed Feb 13, 2019 10:11 am
Grammatron wrote:
Wed Feb 13, 2019 9:12 am
xouper wrote:
Wed Feb 13, 2019 8:09 am
Let me ask another way: Why are you against laws that would prohibit discrimination based on political affiliation or viewpoint?
Please rephrase the question because I have not established that to be my position.
OK, please explain your position.
I think a business should be able to discriminate any way it wants.

However, many people in this country seem to disagree so I am willing to compromise and Federal Civil Rights Act is a good compromise. Maybe not in a philosophical vacuum but certainly within the context of USA's history and culture.
Thanks for explaining. I wish I had known that earlier and saved us all a lot of time. :dunno: