See Spider-Man into the Spiderverse

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corplinx
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See Spider-Man into the Spiderverse

Post by corplinx » Mon Mar 11, 2019 11:02 pm

10/10 film really. Everything has a setup/payoff. Nothing is wasted really. The characters all have motivation. The villian even has a personal motivation.

It even has a rather on-the-nose social message, and it's fine.

I say this, because there is a bottom tier marvel movie out right now that is getting "Ghostbustered". If you don't like the movie you are an alt-right russian puppet. SJWs make everything awful for everyone. I imagine critics are cautious to review it negatively. So let me go into Spider-man.

It is animated which initially turned me off. And Spider-man has been rebooted .... too much.

Critic scores and audience reviews are uniformly high. There was no real controversy about this film.

Spider-Man is a young latino-black mixed race teenager. But it doesn't even matter. He's a well written protagonist and things aren't going his way. The movie is like a textbook in this regard that young film makers could learn from.

Along the way, the whole Spider-Verse thing. Spider-People from other universes exist as well.

Each main character has an arc. The editing is tight, and the animation styles work. There is one kludge to make the narrative work that is completely forgivable.

I am actually shocked Sony delivered this intact as a finished product.

A Black spiderman film was uncontroversial largely, had amazing reviews all around, and I've seen it twice already.

Meanwhile, the Oscars were nominating Black Panther in act of token politics out of another decade. Spider-Man makes Black Panther look like Blackula.

See this film, enjoy it, enjoy the message even. And try to forget the weird neo-Maoist cultural revolution going on with Captain Marvel.

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Re: See Spider-Man into the Spiderverse

Post by corplinx » Mon Mar 11, 2019 11:08 pm

If you want to know what the hub bub about Captain Marvel is:


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Re: See Spider-Man into the Spiderverse

Post by Anaxagoras » Tue Mar 12, 2019 12:01 am

Before watching the video, lemme guess.

A bunch of incels who hate women are enraged by the existence of a superhero movie that doesn't star a white man. I think I read that somewhere.
A fool thinks himself to be wise, but a wise man knows himself to be a fool.
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Re: See Spider-Man into the Spiderverse

Post by corplinx » Tue Mar 12, 2019 12:08 am

Most people didnt care one one way or another. Captain Marvel was a chick in the comics.

Then the star of movie pissed in the face of Male fans. (Edited to add, she didnt, but that became the narrative backlash from people sick of being told how groundbreaking everything is by greedy studios using it as a marketing ploy).
Last edited by corplinx on Tue Mar 12, 2019 12:50 am, edited 1 time in total.

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Re: See Spider-Man into the Spiderverse

Post by Anaxagoras » Tue Mar 12, 2019 12:11 am

What did she say that was so bad?
A fool thinks himself to be wise, but a wise man knows himself to be a fool.
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Re: See Spider-Man into the Spiderverse

Post by corplinx » Tue Mar 12, 2019 12:49 am

She didnt say anything bad at all. Agitators pulled an old quote to make her sound like an angry sjw.

https://www.vulture.com/2019/03/captain ... klash.html

Vulture actually documents the entire fiasco with the jaded cynicism it deserves.

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Re: See Spider-Man into the Spiderverse

Post by corplinx » Tue Mar 12, 2019 12:51 am

Anyway, see Spiderman. You wont regret it.

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Re: See Spider-Man into the Spiderverse

Post by Anaxagoras » Tue Mar 12, 2019 1:25 am

I see you edited the post above after I asked the question. I thought maybe you were serious.

I think the reason America feels like it's constantly on the brink of civil war these days is because people in a knee-jerk way or out of habit look for the worst possible way to interpret what on "the other side" say. If someone gives a 2-hour speech, the news cycle will be about one sentence they said that in that 2 hours that is controversial, or can be spun as controversial, and everything else they said in the speech is ignored.

There's something called "the principle of charity" that nobody follows anymore, because nobody wants to understand or have a constructive discussion, they just want to "show up" the "other side" and prove how evil they are and how virtuous we are.
All these psychological forces lead to entrenched camps of people who are certain they are not only correct, but virtuous, battling against others who are not only wrong, but evil. So what’s the fix?

That is where the principle of charity comes in. This principle states that you should consciously assume the best about your opponent and their position (at least until proven otherwise), and to argue against the best version of their position (not the weakest version). This is good practice for a number of reasons.

If your goal is to arrive at the strongest position (not necessarily your starting position), and to correct error, than you will want to challenge your own position with the best possible arguments. If they can withstand such challenges, they are more likely to be valid.

But also the principle of charity is a needed correction to our own biases and self-serving tendencies. The principle is like a corrective lens fixing a known distortion in our perception. We are therefore likely to be much closer to the truth in our understanding of someone else’s position, or interpreting the reasons for their behavior, than if we ignore the principle and follow our own biases.

Applying the principle of charity means that initially we should suspend judgement. Do not jump to conclusions based on initial or superficial information. Recognize that people are complex, life is complex, and it is likely you do not have all the relevant information. When you see that parent lose it with their child, assume you don’t have enough information to judge them. You might also even imagine external factors that may be in play.

When arguing with someone else, also do not jump to straw men conclusions, or assume that they are holding positions they have not explicitly stated. There is a tendency, when a person expresses a view that is associated with one perspective, that they therefore endorse every view associated with that perspective. If someone endorses a liberal position, for example, we label them a liberal, and assume they hold every liberal position, even extreme straw men liberal positions.

In the extreme we can end up arguing against a cartoon fiction that exists only in our own minds. We have constructed an internal narrative, and other people are just players in that narrative. We can therefore pigeonhole people into simplistic archetypes, and treat them as such.

To break out of even the milder forms of this requires following the principle of charity, which requires meaningfully engaging with other people. Listen to or read what they are actually saying, try to understand the best interpretation of their position, and don’t make assumptions or fill in the gaps with your own narrative. If something doesn’t make sense, ask them to explain or clarify.

Finally – do not assume other people are evil, or have nefarious motives, or negative personality traits simply because they hold a position with which you disagree. Of course, there are bad people out there, but they are the exceptions. Most people believe they are virtuous and want to be perceived that way. If you start with the assumption that people mean well, you are more likely to be correct, and you will better be able to engage with them. If they actually are a psychopathic con-artist, this will become clear, and you have done your due diligence after giving them the benefit of the doubt.
A fool thinks himself to be wise, but a wise man knows himself to be a fool.
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Re: See Spider-Man into the Spiderverse

Post by corplinx » Tue Mar 12, 2019 1:40 am



Jay and Mike have a good take being amateur critics and nerds.

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Re: See Spider-Man into the Spiderverse

Post by corplinx » Wed Mar 13, 2019 1:10 pm

A friend of mine's mother passed recently and he asked me to see the other movie I mentioned.

Sigh.

Okay, here's the problems with Captain Marvel.

It doesn't have a super villian. There is no real climax the story. There is no protagonist either. There is zero dramatic tension.

Ang Lee's Hulk has the "climax" of having the Hulk fight a large pond. But wait, it's actually his father in the form of water!

Green Lantern didn't have a protagonist. It had a bad ass test pilot whose life just got cooler due to super powers.

Captain Marvel made every mistake of forgettable hero movies. Even without knowing Captain Marvel's comic backstory already, the movie starts off by establishing that she is a raw font of power barely kept in check by an inhibitor.

This movie will only be remembered for having a single lead, who is a female. And that is the wrong reason to make a big deal out of a movie in 2019. "but... but.. it's marvel". Okay. Is that meaningful in some way, versus it being Terms Of Endearment?

It was badly written, poorly acted, poorly edited, and poorly directed. Basically, those are the issues.

Spoiler:
Spoiler:
The failed attempt at a climax is Captain Marvel defeating a computer AI in VR in her own head or something. The AI is never established as a deadly force in and of itself and you have no reason to believe it can harm her. The AI isn't even revealed to be malevolent until that scene practically. No build up, no tension. A good horror movie has rules. So does a hero movie. Captain Marvel's powers including building small alphanumeric alien pagers apparently which made me break out laughing at the end of the movie. At one point, she even goes Super Saiyan (I kid you not). I'm willing to believe she is a nuclear warhead of power. But creating small trans-galactic consumer electronics is just a stretch too far.

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Re: See Spider-Man into the Spiderverse

Post by Rob Lister » Wed Mar 13, 2019 4:25 pm

Why is it pulling in so very fucking much money at the box office?

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Re: See Spider-Man into the Spiderverse

Post by Evolver » Wed Mar 13, 2019 7:43 pm

Spiderverse is great.

Captain Marvel is not bad, but not outstanding.
I think people are going to see it because it is setting up how she saves everyone in the second Infinity Wars movie.

I saw it in 3D at a new comfort theater near my home (large recliners, full service bar & restaurant, food & drinks delivered to your seat).
The 3D was interesting in itself. The whole screen was brought forward, making the whole movie immersive and personal.
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Re: See Spider-Man into the Spiderverse

Post by corplinx » Wed Mar 13, 2019 9:31 pm

Rob Lister wrote:
Wed Mar 13, 2019 4:25 pm
Why is it pulling in so very fucking much money at the box office?
The studio pushing a cynical self serving narrative about first female (no), lead (no), in a mainstream comic book movie (no), by Marvel (sorta). And spring break. This is the first blockbuster after the Janurary/February dumping ground.

I went to this with lowered expectations and still wasn't amused.

Maybe it was because I re-watched Spider-Verse again recently. Spider-Verse had a much more overt diversity message, and it was fine. Most nerds grew up watching Star Trek and other diversity message scifi. It's not an unwelcome message no matter how much Hollywood studios that hate criticism try to spin it. Non-Spoiler: Marvel doesn't have a diversity message at all. Or a message. All the spin is studio hype to attract female ticket buyers.

Things that make a good hero movie:
a protagonist
a villain who seems more powerful than the protagonist
motivations for doing things
character arcs
At some point, all hope should seem lost.

Captain Marvel misfires on almost all cylinders. Wonder Woman was a "fish out of water" story at heart and a "coming of age" film in the form an origin story. Spider-Verse was about a movie about family at heart.

Captain Marvel is about... setting up a last minute addition to the Avengers sequel because Thanos dusted all the powered ones? Iduno. I can't tell you what Captain Marvel is about.

"A bunch of stuff happens"


I might have been kinder, but some of these things aren't opinions. There is no protagonist. There is no real climax. There are literary things that actually mean something. The last fight in a movie isn't a climax simply because it is the last fight.


McRib might be the best selling BBQ in the world but it certainly isn't the best. I think Marvel kept the pacing lively enough the lumpen who enjoy it generally won't give it bad word of mouth. Also, Marvel positioned it as a prequel to the conclusion of the most awaited film in their decade long setup for End Game.

There are many reasons for why the film is commercially successful, but none of them are around quality.

Even the quality of the CGI was dodgy in parts and distracting. There is a digital aging job that looks good, and one that goes uncanny valley and is utterly distracting.

What did I like?
When the film acted more like an art film and actually challenged the audience. Which I'm surprised made the cut. I'll not spoil those sections but say they exist.

So you have this weird juxtaposition of soulless commercial product with a few interesting bits that show vision.

Minor Spoiler:
Spoiler:
The very on the nose teasing of an origin for Nick Fury's missing eye was a bit painful to watch.

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Re: See Spider-Man into the Spiderverse

Post by Grammatron » Thu Mar 14, 2019 9:05 pm

Spiderverse was great, probably the best movie of 2018 (YMMV)