Winter is coming

Drama queens must check their tiaras at the door.
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Grammatron
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Re: Winter is coming

Post by Grammatron »

I think the ultimate ending is fine, it would have meant more and would have made more sense if there were a few more seasons of the long night; Daeny going mad; Daeny and Jon falling in love; Cersei and Uron building defenses/traps.
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Re: Winter is coming

Post by Doctor X »

Yeah.

Totally not interested in that.

The reason the novels are so interesting despite the chapters on food and Jets butt-hurt is because it marks a moment where things fall apart, get worse, and where is it going to go? The problem with a prequel to that is you know where it is going to go. There is no mystery.

The only way prequels are interesting is if "how we got here" was never really covered. So why Michael Myers went sociopathic as a boy might be interesting . . . if we never had 37 [37?--Ed.] sequels. Though the "How Kirk became KHAAAAAANNNN!!!!" prequels all suffer the same problem: we know that Kirk survives whatever the fuck is trying to eat/fuck/demote him.

So . . . meh.

--J.D.
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Re: Winter is coming

Post by Grammatron »

I am not sure that's inherently true. Chernobyl is a fantastic show despite knowing that the world didn't, in fact, end. There are plenty of WWII movies and shows that are fantastic despite knowing how the world will end.

One of the problems HBO might have is that people just do not care about that world.
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Re: Winter is coming

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The problem with prequels is that all to often, they make a seemingly large universe feel smaller, because they ‘have to’ include fan service references or connections to other parts of the franchise.
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Re: Winter is coming

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Grammatron wrote: Mon May 20, 2019 6:33 pm I am not sure that's inherently true. Chernobyl is a fantastic show despite knowing that the world didn't, in fact, end.
HEY! SPOILERS!!!! :x

Though that is a docudrama, and I agree with:
There are plenty of WWII movies and shows that are fantastic despite knowing how the world will end.
if you can find the wonderfully done Canadian-Japanese Hiroshima from the 90s, it is quite good. A favorite That Guy does Truman, another with scores of others playing his cabinet. The Japanese speak, Heavens to Betsy, Japanese which makes the infamous 黙殺 ["Mokusatsu"--Ed.] incident all that more realistic.

I joke with people when I recommend The Death of Stalin: "Spoiler: Stalin dies!"

However, that is history portrayed. In a way:
One of the problems HBO might have is that people just do not care about that world.
I think that is it. People do not care about, say, the details of Robert's Rebellion or the "Tower of Love" and all of that. People do care about how the Godless Commies screwed up nuculer reactors and the fact the Japanese argued to the very literal bitter end that they could withstand nuculer attacks.

--J.D.
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"Doctor X is just treating you the way he treats everyone--as subhuman crap too dumb to breathe in after you breathe out." – Don
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"It was the criticisms of Doc X, actually, that let me see more clearly how far the hypocrisy had gone." – clarsct
"I'd leave it up to Doctor X who has been a benevolent tyrant so far." – Grammatron
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Shit. That's going to end up in your sig." – Pyrrho
"Try a twelve step program and accept Doctor X as your High Power." – asthmatic camel
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Re: Winter is coming

Post by Doctor X »

Anyways, here is a good review I read earlier:
Hugh Montgomery

Warning: contains spoilers about the final episode of series 8.

One day, a prestige HBO drama will likely be made out of the momentous fall-out from last week’s penultimate Game of Thrones episode. After fans expressed growing discontent with the show, the decision to have Daenerys torch the whole of King’s Landing and its citizens with dragon fire finally blew the roof off the whole enterprise for many – only for others to fire back that these grumblers were wilful killjoys who should accept what was, in their eyes, a perfectly reasonable plot twist. Since last Sunday, the argument on social media has not let up.

Brad Beats Cersae
the salient quotes from that I will put in:
For what it’s worth, I think the events of last week were ruinous, in more ways than one – and it’s also worth emphasising that most of us who moaned about Daenerys’ wholesale transformation into the Mad Queen never thought of her as ‘good’ or expected her to be an upstanding ruler of the Seven Kingdoms – far from it. It’s just that pushing her into committing unprompted mass genocide seemed both a touch extreme and rather too obvious – a clunking privileging of plot over character. But I accept that there is a point at which one’s grievance also becomes excessive, even as a critic.

Which is why, in reviewing this week’s finale, I have vowed to try and be as even-handed as possible. To swallow my objections, take what has happened as read, and see if the ending can satisfy on the terms the creators have now set out. And, largely, it does – beginning with a remarkable, wordless opening sequence in which Tyrion wanders through the ashen remains of the citadel, surveying the wreckage, and the charred bodies. Saturated in grey, the scene eerily evokes a nuclear holocaust – and it is a terrible and powerful irony, of course, that after eight series of fear around the Night King bringing winter to Westeros, in the end, with ash falling like snow, it is human misdeed that should create that seasonal effect in the hitherto sunny King’s Landing.

It seemed likely that, for all the committed cynicism of the show’s worldview, in the final reckoning it would not allow the instigator of such a cataclysm to go unpunished – and so it proves. In a Nuremberg rally-like address to her armies, our self-righteous tyrant Dany suggests her whiffy ‘liberating’ mission is far from over, while kitted out in a fetching but distinctly fascistic black leather ensemble. Then she gets what’s coming to her.

Amid what remains of the Great Hall, her nephew-cum-lover-cum-dopey-wingman Jon Snow stabs her through the heart, while snogging her and declaring her “my queen now and always”. The scene, thankfully, really lands – fuelled, perhaps, by the sheer torturedness of their predicament, Kit Harington and Emilia Clarke suddenly find a chemistry that has been notably absent between them up to this point. It is a moment only slightly diminished by the clunking absurdity of what follows, when Drogon makes an appearance. Clearly more than peeved at the death of his mum, he nevertheless refrains from flaming her traitorous boyfriend and instead decides to melt the Iron Throne. Which works well to hammer home the show’s central message about the inherent corruption of monarchical rule, but does beg the question: are we expected to believe that dragons have a finely-tuned appreciation of the symbols of autocratic power?

["Snip!"--Ed.]

That leader, not entirely unpredictably, is Bran, the seer Stark who finally has something useful to do after many series of slightly superfluous and obscure visions.

He’s a choice that makes narrative sense, though it has to be said that there is something quite humorous about Tyrion’s justification for picking him being that he has the greatest “story” – given that, for many viewers at least, his storyline has been quite the dreariest. In any case, true to the show’s sense of realpolitik, it’s very much only a contingently happy ending: when Jon asks Tyrion if he did the right thing in killing Daenerys, he simply replies: “ask me again in ten years”.

In fact, though, not one but two new rules are established. Those of us who have found ourselves cheering on an ever-more-emboldened Sansa Stark – one of the few characters with a truly well-constructed character arc – can rejoice in seeing her declare the North independent of the other six kingdoms, and crowned as its queen. In other plot tie-ups, Jon is packed off back to The Night’s Watch, as a way to appease Daenerys’ followers while saving him from a death sentence, while, ever the lone ranger, Arya vows to continue her adventuring by travelling West of Westeros into the great unknown. A final scene cuts between the three of them taking up their new destinies, and provides an efficient, if disappointingly uncontroversial, ending.

I think the complaints about the show over the past couple of series have been mostly justified. It’s easy to sneer at Game of Thrones’ so-called ‘entitled’ fans, as some critics have done, particularly when they sign petitions asking for its final season to be remade – but, at the same time, it seems to me perfectly reasonable to be upset at seeing something you have invested so much time in being debased by pure-and-simple bad writing.

However, it is also true that a sprawling epic like this, with chaos built into its very narrative DNA, was always likely to have faults. In fact, that in-built imperfection seems to be wryly referenced in one of the closing scenes, where George RR Martin proxy Samwell reveals he is in possession of a book detailing the history of everything we have seen over the last eight series. And its title? ‘A Song of Ice and Fire’ – the same one, of course, as for Martin’s series of novels. However when Tyrion asks about how he is portrayed in it, he discovers, humiliatingly, that he doesn’t even get a mention. In the end, similarly, some characters were served better than others by Benioff and Weiss – spare a thought for example, for poor Brienne of Tarth, that one time vanquisher of gender norms whose character, in the end, was sacrificed to a gratuitous romantic plotline.

But, finally, let us remember the good times the show gave us – the shocks it provided, the gasps it induced, the caustic quippery it revelled in (Olenna Tyrell 4 Eva), and the sheer amount of conversation it inspired, something which in itself is proof of its cultural power. And hopefully see you back here in the next year or two, to pore over the affairs of Westeros once more, when the upcoming Games of Thrones prequel series begins.
Unfortunately, what he heralds in his critique are all elements penned by the Butt-hurt Fat Jets Fan and not Dumb 'n Dumber. The fantastic cast carried those elements from Charles Dance all the way to The Kids who could have really ruined it. I have respect for Maise since Arya could have become the Irritating Plucky 'n Sassy Girl whom everyone wants to drop a building on. Same with Sansa whose character was royally screwed . . . er . . . let me rephrase that in absurd fashions, but continued to play the character believable.

The ends were . . . well . . . not justified. The deaths in "The Long Night" were capricious to completely stupid. So the Sheriff of Fortitude--"I AM ALL OF THE SHERIFFS!"--dies yet Jamie and Brienne and Jon Snow who are literally buried by murderous dead . . . all . . . survive?

Moving on to the Sacking of King's Landing, disappointing. I do not blame the actors. Emily of all people, handed the script, "she's mad now. MAD I tell you!" did it well. She even pulls off in the ending the mad belief that she is good while ignoring the harm.

But Cersea and Jamie?

And what was the "point" of the Hound facing the Mountain? It ultimately meant nothing. Maybe that was the point, but if they just wanted the fight, the Hound was smart enough to just behead his brother.

In the rain.

--J.D.

--J.D.
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Re: Winter is coming

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Ah well at least
Spoiler:
Tyrion ends up as Hand of the King, which is kinda sorta better than being the King.
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Re: Winter is coming

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Looking back on the last two seasons:

Did winter ever actually come? I mean, that was the famous catch phrase from the beginning. But if it did come, it was only for one day it seems.
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Re: Winter is coming

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The thing about the “atrocities “ in the show and how they show daeny as a tyrant is... in a medieval world, they would likely not be considered especially out of line. More, business as usual.

I guess the anachronistic attitudes are common in tv dramas but it does make the seven kingdoms sound like 21st century California (except with a wall)
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Re: Winter is coming

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Link:

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Re: Winter is coming

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Link:

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Re: Winter is coming

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Giz wrote: Mon May 20, 2019 11:56 pm The thing about the “atrocities “ in the show and how they show daeny as a tyrant is... in a medieval world, they would likely not be considered especially out of line. More, business as usual.

I guess the anachronistic attitudes are common in tv dramas but it does make the seven kingdoms sound like 21st century California (except with a wall)
Sure. Genghis Khan and Attila the Hun would have approved if not complained that she showed too much mercy.

But she was supposed to be "the breaker of chains" and all that. Oh well. It is, after all, supposed to be a medieval world with pre-modern norms.
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Re: Winter is coming

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Anaxagoras wrote: Wed May 22, 2019 11:12 am
Giz wrote: Mon May 20, 2019 11:56 pm The thing about the “atrocities “ in the show and how they show daeny as a tyrant is... in a medieval world, they would likely not be considered especially out of line. More, business as usual.

I guess the anachronistic attitudes are common in tv dramas but it does make the seven kingdoms sound like 21st century California (except with a wall)
Sure. Genghis Khan and Attila the Hun would have approved if not complained that she showed too much mercy.

But she was supposed to be "the breaker of chains" and all that. Oh well. It is, after all, supposed to be a medieval world with pre-modern norms.
Not just those two but pretty much any medieval person would have been “what is the fuss about” regarding most of it. (Kings landing would have been a bit a bit out of line but nothing worse than Richard the lion heart did)
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Re: Winter is coming

Post by Nyarlathotep »

I dunno. There was a lot of backlash to the Sack of Constantinople.

Rather like modern day atrocities, whether one applauded it or abhorred it seemed to depend on where your pre existing loyalties lay
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Re: Winter is coming

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And "Everybody Wants to Rule the World" fits in pretty well with Game of Thrones, I gotta say.
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Re: Winter is coming

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Dataset for all GoT deaths on GitHub.

https://github.com/washingtonpost/data- ... nes-deaths
The Washington Post has compiled an illustrated database of every single death in Game of Thrones over the course of its eight seasons, including background extras and animals. These numbers only include on-screen deaths.
WaPo infographic:

https://www.washingtonpost.com/graphics ... f-thrones/
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Re: Winter is coming

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Too much free time.

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Re: Winter is coming

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Re: Winter is coming

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A fool thinks himself to be wise, but a wise man knows himself to be a fool.
William Shakespeare (probably Socrates originally)
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Re: Winter is coming

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The flash of light you saw in the sky was not a UFO. Swamp gas from a weather balloon was trapped in a thermal pocket and reflected the light from Venus.
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Re: Winter is coming

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I prefer the Japanese Original:




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DocX: FTW. – sparks
"Doctor X wins again." – Pyrrho
"Never sorry to make a racist Fucktard cry." – His Humble MagNIfIcence
"It was the criticisms of Doc X, actually, that let me see more clearly how far the hypocrisy had gone." – clarsct
"I'd leave it up to Doctor X who has been a benevolent tyrant so far." – Grammatron
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Shit. That's going to end up in your sig." – Pyrrho
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Re: Winter is coming

Post by ed »

OK, I have begun. I just finished Episode 3 and I am popping in to say that I have never seen a more criminal waste of production dollars ever ever in my life. WTF were they thinking? And spare me the gay interp0retation of the meaning of what they were trying to accomplish.. It was bullshit and someone should be hung. No dialogue, no visuals. A blind and dumb person's episode. What fucking crap.

I know that when I play a videogame and the action is in a dungeon that they ran out of either money or talent or ideas and they are hiding those sad facts in the dark. At least they have an excuse. These guys had the money, they should be ashamed.

So, who died? Anyone know?
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Re: Winter is coming

Post by ed »

Episode 4

So the dragon gets killed. Correct response: big arc with the remainingg one and burn the fuckers to a crisp with enfilading fire.
Actual response: nothing

eta: :x
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Re: Winter is coming

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They shoulda made barrels of wildfire, flown a couple of thousand feet up and dropped them on strategic points.

Mind you, if we are to nitpick fantasy shows... why the fuck didn’t Gandalf have the eagles fly everyone to mount doom?! Seriously, walk the entire way? Great plan!
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Re: Winter is coming

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Cersi could have pre-buried the wildfire at the entry fields around the city, or fired it at the advancing army.

Also learned something about mass-firing at a target.

The sad truth is that once they moved past the books and started changing elements of the books, we saw the weakness in the writing. The actors saw it as well. Fantastically cast depiction of the books followed by a "will never watch again" three or four seasons.

--J.D.
Mob of the Mean: Free beanie, cattle-prod and Charley Fan Club!
"Doctor X is just treating you the way he treats everyone--as subhuman crap too dumb to breathe in after you breathe out." – Don
DocX: FTW. – sparks
"Doctor X wins again." – Pyrrho
"Never sorry to make a racist Fucktard cry." – His Humble MagNIfIcence
"It was the criticisms of Doc X, actually, that let me see more clearly how far the hypocrisy had gone." – clarsct
"I'd leave it up to Doctor X who has been a benevolent tyrant so far." – Grammatron
"Indeed you are a river to your people.
Shit. That's going to end up in your sig." – Pyrrho
"Try a twelve step program and accept Doctor X as your High Power." – asthmatic camel
"just like Doc X said." – gnome

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Re: Winter is coming

Post by Nyarlathotep »

I just want to know why a pre-gunpowder lever society is using "FIRE!" as the command to launch their mega-crossbow when, unlike a cannon, fire has nothing to do with it
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Re: Winter is coming

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Heck, I want to know how they have such good teeth!
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Re: Winter is coming

Post by ed »

Episode 6. Nice ending. Glad the dangerous blond bitch bought it. Ayla is still the incipient hottie.

Good job.
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Re: Winter is coming

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I want to know why you immediately treat me like an inferior.

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Mob of the Mean: Free beanie, cattle-prod and Charley Fan Club!
"Doctor X is just treating you the way he treats everyone--as subhuman crap too dumb to breathe in after you breathe out." – Don
DocX: FTW. – sparks
"Doctor X wins again." – Pyrrho
"Never sorry to make a racist Fucktard cry." – His Humble MagNIfIcence
"It was the criticisms of Doc X, actually, that let me see more clearly how far the hypocrisy had gone." – clarsct
"I'd leave it up to Doctor X who has been a benevolent tyrant so far." – Grammatron
"Indeed you are a river to your people.
Shit. That's going to end up in your sig." – Pyrrho
"Try a twelve step program and accept Doctor X as your High Power." – asthmatic camel
"just like Doc X said." – gnome

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Re: Winter is coming

Post by ed »

OK, you're a hottie too.

Spoilers below

Meanwhile ... after an evenings thought, the weakness of the treatment is becoming apparent.
Jon Snow turned from a principled warrior into a love struck teenager.

Cerci (who would not have been the worst ruler) murders a confident of Denarys thus cutting off her negotiating ability ... why?

Ayla (Incipient Hottie) after monomaniacally focusing on her "list" and numero uno, Cerci, for a decade is dissuaded from going after said Cerci after 25 words of advice from someone she tried to kill. OK.

Bran, autistic Bran, become king because ... magic stuff? And we somehow transition to a constitutional monarchy because ... why? And the true king, Jon "weak knees" Snow, goes off to the Knights Watch???

Tyrian turns over his pal to certain death by getting fucking burned alive because .. principle? Really?

You get the idea. There was a bit more than a bit of god in a machine in this episode (and earlier ones).
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Re: Winter is coming

Post by ed »

Grammatron wrote: Mon Jul 24, 2017 9:58 pm
Nyarlathotep wrote:So far today I have seen articles both on NPR's site and The Guardian about how the article writer has no intentions on ever watching Game of Thrones.

I never watched The Mod Squad, even as a kid. It was mostly because I didn't get the channel it was on when I was growing up, but I bet I could puke out a 2000 word essay on why I never watched it and never will. I wonder if they would publish that. Or does it have to be a currently popular show to expect a medal for never watching it.
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Re: Winter is coming

Post by Rob Lister »

Grammatron wrote: Mon Jul 24, 2017 9:58 pm
Nyarlathotep wrote:So far today I have seen articles both on NPR's site and The Guardian about how the article writer has no intentions on ever watching Game of Thrones.

I never watched The Mod Squad, even as a kid. It was mostly because I didn't get the channel it was on when I was growing up, but I bet I could puke out a 2000 word essay on why I never watched it and never will. I wonder if they would publish that. Or does it have to be a currently popular show to expect a medal for never watching it.
Abdul insists constantly that he's never seen a single episode of Seinfeld. He's very proud of that.
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ed
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Re: Winter is coming

Post by ed »

The "smartest things" to do, it would seem, is to have gone after Kings Landing not to sack/burn it but threaten it. Meanwhile, destroy the Lannister army with the dragons.
The problem is that when you build up a plot element like "DRAGONS!!" then you have to deliver. But if you deliver, you have no story. If Danny had used her remaining two dragons to kill all the white walkers up north then you would have had the Night King waling about on his lonesome raising the occasional dead peasant. No a good ending but one that should have been given the build up.
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Giz
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Re: Winter is coming

Post by Giz »

The problem is, given how hard it is for even modern weapons to hit/bring down an aircraft, a dragon should be pretty much unstoppable against a medieval army. So how do you keep things challenging? In this case, kill a dragon with a million to one crossbow shot and have some very unmedieval qualms about violence in the good guy camp.

It a bit like Superman - he’s so powerful that you have to pull out krptonite and have the guy who can move at light speed blunder around slowly until lex Luther can stick him with the green end.
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Re: Winter is coming

Post by Nyarlathotep »

ed wrote: Mon Jun 10, 2019 10:47 am OK, you're a hottie too.

Spoilers below

Meanwhile ... after an evenings thought, the weakness of the treatment is becoming apparent.
Jon Snow turned from a principled warrior into a love struck teenager.

Cerci (who would not have been the worst ruler) murders a confident of Denarys thus cutting off her negotiating ability ... why?

Ayla (Incipient Hottie) after monomaniacally focusing on her "list" and numero uno, Cerci, for a decade is dissuaded from going after said Cerci after 25 words of advice from someone she tried to kill. OK.

Bran, autistic Bran, become king because ... magic stuff? And we somehow transition to a constitutional monarchy because ... why? And the true king, Jon "weak knees" Snow, goes off to the Knights Watch???

Tyrian turns over his pal to certain death by getting fucking burned alive because .. principle? Really?

You get the idea. There was a bit more than a bit of god in a machine in this episode (and earlier ones).
Arya. Not Ayla.

I'd be careful with the incipient hottie stuff too, pal...

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Re: Winter is coming

Post by gnome »

ed wrote: Mon Jun 10, 2019 12:25 pmNight King waling about on his lonesome raising the occasional dead peasant.
"Why do I have to shamble after you?"
"Because I am the Night King!"
"I didn't vote for you. Take those coconuts and leave me alone!"
"If fighting is sure to result in victory, then you must fight! Sun Tzu said that, and I'd say he knows a little bit more about fighting than you do, pal, because he invented it, and then he perfected it so that no living man could best him in the ring of honor. Then, he used his fight money to buy two of every animal on earth, and then he herded them onto a boat, and then he beat the crap out of every single one. And from that day forward any time a bunch of animals are together in one place it's called a zoo! (Beat) Unless it's a farm!"
--Soldier, TF2