Lakers vs. Celtics

Never agree to 3 points on top of the vig.
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Post by Grammatron »

izittrue wrote:Awesome...
I says at halftime...Lakers will not score 100 points...
Where will kobe be next year?
Of course it ain't over till its....
With the Lakers. With Bynum and the rest of the team healthy they have the best team for the next 4-5 years.

However, I am not counting the Lakers, particularly Phil Jackson out just yet. The tweaking obviously worked for the first 2 quarters, now he has to just fine tune the rest of the game. It can be done, look no further than Boston's baseball team :P

Yes it was a monumental shot out and if I was Boston I'd be gloating and in-your-face-ing every Laker fan I knew, but it's not over yet. This series has always been the Lakers' to lose not Celtic's to win, IMHO.
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Post by Doctor X »

I will disagree with your last point--the Cs have always been the better team, they just did not play like that for part of the post-season. I agree with various wonks that Cleveland and Detroit would have beaten the Lakers as well . . . who only get older . . . and more fractured next year.

However, it "ain't fo' until it fo'!!"

--J.D.
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Post by Grammatron »

Doctor X wrote:I will disagree with your last point--the Cs have always been the better team, they just did not play like that for part of the post-season. I agree with various wonks that Cleveland and Detroit would have beaten the Lakers as well . . . who only get older . . . and more fractured next year.

However, it "ain't fo' until it fo'!!"

--J.D.
Well it would take pretty big balls for me to say Lakers are a better team with them being down 3 games in a best of 4 series in the finals, luckily...


Anywho, the Lakers lacked follow through and maturity of the bench and even couple of key players, to really display their abilities as a team. Pau, for all the bitching about the super-duper mid-season trade has been very lackluster in the finals. But, if he can step up the way Odom did they can win next 3. Not going to be easy, but then making history never is.
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Post by Doctor X »

I generally hate the "the better team lost" arguments--*cough-cough*--but it is all about who plays best that day. The reason you do not hear too many Patriots fan bitch the "if we played them 100 times we would beat them 99.99937 times!" is because they know St. Louis fans would be more right with that argument!

. . . and . . . let us not bring up the Snow Bowl . . . it was in the rule book . . . not a fumble . . . no.

However, in a seven game series, the cream pretty much rises to the top--unless the refs give it to the Lakers! *cough* *cough*

Even in 2004 the Glorious Red Sox were generally favored. Had Schill had his surgery before his first start they win that game. They were two very close teams, but GRS pitching came through. Same with the 2007 Cleveland series.

This is why, actually, I was very concerned with facing the Lakers. All the Celtic-Fan-Boy arguments that the Lakers played "easier teams" aside, the Lakers destroyed their opponents in the post-season. The Celtics? They could not win on the road. They also lost badly on the road. They may have been "The Better Team" [Tm.--Ed.], but the Lakers appear to me to be playing a lot better.

And, frankly, the team that wins in the post season is the better team. I know a lot of people who point to a banner with "116 Wins!" as if it represents something.

Sort of like "Five Straight Division Titles."


:Waaaah:

--J.D.
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Post by izittrue »

Almost another meltdown...makes interesting viewing.
NBA needs revenue...lets play another game.
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Post by Doctor X »

izittrue wrote:Almost another meltdown...makes interesting viewing.
NBA needs revenue...lets play another game.
Let's call a foul a steal.

Granted, it helps if you can make your free throws. . . .

--J.D.
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Post by izittrue »

Are you suggesting NBA needs replays?
OK...Boston your star players will get in foul trouble...We will give Kobe 4 fouls...but that's all he gets...
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Post by Doctor X »

After putting the Cs starters in early foul trouble.

Michael Holley does not blame the refs, but he does note that Stern has a major problem with some of the refs. Apparently, Simon traced how one particular guy has been involved in every game in which it would be "beneficial" for the NBA if a series extended. I will try to find it.

Conspiracy theory? Probably, but the point Holley is making is with all the hooplah of "Spy Gate"--I would add steroids in baseball--there is now a general impression that officiating is highly subjective.

Will it matter?

Probably not. NBA is too popular. It is not like people are going to watch hockey or soccer in the late winter and early spring.

--J.D.
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"It was the criticisms of Doc X, actually, that let me see more clearly how far the hypocrisy had gone." – clarsct
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Post by izittrue »

I think the "scholared" fan knows there is something a bit fishy (and I don't mean xtian) with the refs and the calls. But that can be argued in every sport ..except perhaps America's past time...but hey they may bring in replays for home runs and stuff...
Yes no one will watch hockey unless it's the original 6 teams and do away with expansion.
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Post by ck »

Why the hell was Derek Fisher benched so long? He's a very smart player, very dangerous, and so should be on the court as much as possible. I think this may have also helped the Celtics get back into the game. Not that I mind at all, certainly not, keep making choices like that, Phil...
Yes no one will watch hockey unless it's the original 6 teams and do away with expansion.
Yes that seems to be the case, and I think expansion has largely killed the sport. Hell, the Redwings won the Stanley Cup this year. I live in Michigan, and have yet to encounter anyone who gives a shit.
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Post by Grammatron »

izittrue wrote:I think the "scholared" fan knows there is something a bit fishy (and I don't mean xtian) with the refs and the calls. But that can be argued in every sport ..except perhaps America's past time...but hey they may bring in replays for home runs and stuff...
Yes no one will watch hockey unless it's the original 6 teams and do away with expansion.

No one will watch the games if they are not in big markets.

Who the hell cares if it's Grizzlies vs. Magic?

I don't think there's any big conspiracy further than refs are influenced by the home court. Going back to Boston you'll see that shit reversed...once again.
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Post by izittrue »

Yep home court refs...that is what the NBA is all about.
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Post by Doctor X »

Which it really should not be.

You can never make a sport utterly completely 110 % fair. No one argues for that. Get the calls right that the technology allows you to get right.

I am glad the Luddites of Baseball are starting to realize that fans do care when you fuck up HR calls. Fans also understand these are not always easy calls to make at the time. However, when you see the play thrown up on a big screen in "slow-mo" and everyone can see the call was wrong . . . it breeds conspiracy theories.

There was a poster HERE who would claim the NFL games were "fixed." Whatever the outcome, of course, he could find "fixed." I listened to a commentator at the time who dealt with the "fixed" claim from a caller--"fixed for Peyton Manning" to my recollection.

"So stop watching NFL!" was the response. If it is "fixed," why do you watch it? The guy did not have an answer.

It is not so much of the reality of "fixed," but the impression. The same commentator explained Spy Gate in that way: you can argue all you want whether or not Belichick--"HOW do I REEECH these KEEEDS?!"--gains a "material advantage"--the impression is he did. Period.

Of course, it does not help the situation when an NBA ref is caught fixing games and accuses a bunch of other ref who have a reputation of "questionable calls." As another put it, "why is a formerly suspended ref refereeing a FINALS game?"

--J.D.
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Post by Grammatron »

Doctor X wrote:Which it really should not be.

You can never make a sport utterly completely 110 % fair. No one argues for that. Get the calls right that the technology allows you to get right.

I am glad the Luddites of Baseball are starting to realize that fans do care when you fuck up HR calls. Fans also understand these are not always easy calls to make at the time. However, when you see the play thrown up on a big screen in "slow-mo" and everyone can see the call was wrong . . . it breeds conspiracy theories.

There was a poster HERE who would claim the NFL games were "fixed." Whatever the outcome, of course, he could find "fixed." I listened to a commentator at the time who dealt with the "fixed" claim from a caller--"fixed for Peyton Manning" to my recollection.

"So stop watching NFL!" was the response. If it is "fixed," why do you watch it? The guy did not have an answer.

It is not so much of the reality of "fixed," but the impression. The same commentator explained Spy Gate in that way: you can argue all you want whether or not Belichick--"HOW do I REEECH these KEEEDS?!"--gains a "material advantage"--the impression is he did. Period.

Of course, it does not help the situation when an NBA ref is caught fixing games and accuses a bunch of other ref who have a reputation of "questionable calls." As another put it, "why is a formerly suspended ref refereeing a FINALS game?"

--J.D.
Indeed.

NBA keeps saying they will change the way the officiate games and this shitstorm just might push them to it. However, short of reviewable plays I don't see how they can accomplish it. It's a very face-paced game with a couple guys trying to watch the entire fucking court while people think you are scum from few feet away.
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Post by Evolver »

Grammatron wrote: I don't think there's any big conspiracy further than refs are influenced by the home court. Going back to Boston you'll see that shit reversed...once again.
Agreed. I heard Tommy Heinsohn on the radio a few weeks back saying that the refs get caught up in the home court cheering, and somewhere deep down they feel the crowd is cheering for them.
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Post by Doctor X »

Grammatron wrote:NBA keeps saying they will change the way the officiate games and this shitstorm just might push them to it. However, short of reviewable plays I don't see how they can accomplish it. It's a very face-paced game with a couple guys trying to watch the entire fucking court while people think you are scum from few feet away.
It will have to be more than simply fining the shit out of owners and coaches who state the obvious. I am now repeating what I heard--so take it with the appropriate scoop of salt--but there seems to be a denial on the part of Sterns and the Powers that Be with regards to better training of officials and, more importantly, demoting and getting rid of those who simply do not past muster.

I cannot recall the incident off the top of my head, but there was an official who was suspended for calling fouls on . . . Lebron? I forget . . . because he did not like him. Sorry. That ref never works again. Period. When it is that obvious, he has to go. He does not later officiate a playoff game where that player is involved!

--J.D.
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Post by You May Award The Try »

Grammatron wrote:
NBA keeps saying they will change the way the officiate games and this shitstorm just might push them to it. However, short of reviewable plays I don't see how they can accomplish it. It's a very face-paced game with a couple guys trying to watch the entire fucking court while people think you are scum from few feet away.
Some rules probably need to be changed so that virtually every drive to the basket does not result in a foul that stops the game. No more defensive fouls when the offensive player in any way seeks to inititate contact for one. Look to create less whistles, not more.

Add that to extensive review to make calls more consistent from ref to ref and to weed out the poor performers. Make up for the extreme demands and quick hook by paying refs on par with the players, which will also make buying a ref a bit more expensive.
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Post by Evolver »

And a pony for every fan.
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Post by Grammatron »

Doctor X wrote:
Grammatron wrote:NBA keeps saying they will change the way the officiate games and this shitstorm just might push them to it. However, short of reviewable plays I don't see how they can accomplish it. It's a very face-paced game with a couple guys trying to watch the entire fucking court while people think you are scum from few feet away.
It will have to be more than simply fining the shit out of owners and coaches who state the obvious. I am now repeating what I heard--so take it with the appropriate scoop of salt--but there seems to be a denial on the part of Sterns and the Powers that Be with regards to better training of officials and, more importantly, demoting and getting rid of those who simply do not past muster.

I cannot recall the incident off the top of my head, but there was an official who was suspended for calling fouls on . . . Lebron? I forget . . . because he did not like him. Sorry. That ref never works again. Period. When it is that obvious, he has to go. He does not later officiate a playoff game where that player is involved!

--J.D.
Not sure if this the referee you were thinking of:

http://myespn.go.com/blogs/truehoop/0-3 ... erees.html
Crawford is very highly regarded. But just a year ago, Crawford was suspended indefinitely, reportedly for challenging Tim Duncan to a fight in the middle of a game.
Yikes.
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Post by Doctor X »

I think so.

I heard a discussion on how Stern notes that they review the tape of every call in the NBA . . . blah . . . blah . . . yet, for some reasons, the same refs keep coming back. As one put it, "he just does not see it," as in he just does not see the problem.

--J.D.

P.S. Oh . . . and this just in: Sen. Alan Specter--taking a cue from Hillary Clinton--is suspending his investigation of "SpyGate." When asked about investigating the growing NBA referee scandals, Specter commented that he was "not interested."

Lolz.
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Post by Grammatron »

Ugly.
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Post by ck »

Very ugly, but not that I'm minding at all! 8)

Who's MVP, Pierce or Allen?
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Post by Doctor X »

At least it was close.

--J.D.
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Post by Evolver »

Sorry Grammy.

:D
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Post by Grammatron »

That was very sad.

However, the next half a decade looks great.
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Post by Doctor X »

It certainly does look good for the Cs, yes.

--J.D.

P.S. Man, I did not predict THAT.
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Post by Doctor X »

Image

Image

"I told them defense was important."

Though my favorite is:

Image

--J.D.
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"It was the criticisms of Doc X, actually, that let me see more clearly how far the hypocrisy had gone." – clarsct
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Shit. That's going to end up in your sig." – Pyrrho
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Post by izittrue »

17th win on the 17th day...hmm it is all about 17
The only thing I said is they would not cut the lead to 10 points...that was with 11 minutes to go in the 3rd quarter.
I don't want to say anything...but...Kobe is not like Mike.
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Post by ck »

I don't want to say anything...but...Kobe is not like Mike.
No, he most certainly isn't.

The problem has been that the NBA has so desperately wanted there to be a "next Michael Jordan" and so have touted Kobe to be just that.

There are very few players who are at that level or who approach that level, and Kobe isn't one of them.
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Post by Beamstalk »

Doctor X wrote:Image

"I told them defense was important."
Guess he should have taken the advice himself......


Anyway Congrats Celts.
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Post by Evolver »

ck wrote:
I don't want to say anything...but...Kobe is not like Mike.
No, he most certainly isn't.

The problem has been that the NBA has so desperately wanted there to be a "next Michael Jordan" and so have touted Kobe to be just that.

There are very few players who are at that level or who approach that level, and Kobe isn't one of them.
LeBron could be in that category, but like Jordan, he needs a good supporting cast to flourish properly.
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Post by Grammatron »

izittrue wrote: I don't want to say anything...but...Kobe is not like Mike.
Well he doesn't have a gambling problem but they do both practice adultery...hmm.

Sure Kobe is not Mike and Mike is not Kobe but so what? He's still one of the best players ever.
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Post by Grammatron »

ck wrote:
I don't want to say anything...but...Kobe is not like Mike.
No, he most certainly isn't.

The problem has been that the NBA has so desperately wanted there to be a "next Michael Jordan" and so have touted Kobe to be just that.

There are very few players who are at that level or who approach that level, and Kobe isn't one of them.
That's only true if you hate Kobe for some reason. So it sounds like a personal problem.
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Post by Doctor X »

Actually, that is a fairly objective assessment of Kobe.

Whether or not it is his fault that sportswriters and fans keep raising the "Who is the Next Michael?" question, the answer is it clearly is not Kobe.

His personal problems, his inability to be a team player, et cetera merely compounds the problem.

Does not mean he suddenly "sucks" as a player; he is just not as good as some would like him to be--who is?--nor as he thinks he is.

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Post by izittrue »

Grammatron wrote:
Sure Kobe is not Mike and Mike is not Kobe but so what? He's still one of the best players ever.
yes you are correct he is one of the best players...and as Doc x states it's not Kobe's fault that people/sportwriters want him to be the next Mike...
I was just sayin' that he ain't...
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Post by Evolver »

The local news sports reported just said that Vegas already has the Lakers as the favorites for next years championship.

Were they watching?
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Post by Grammatron »

Evolver wrote:The local news sports reported just said that Vegas already has the Lakers as the favorites for next years championship.

Were they watching?
They might be piling on Bynum here but he is a huge difference on the court. Also as a young team Lakers just got a crash course on what's needed to get to the Finals AND win it. I could see how they can be favorites next year.
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Post by Evolver »

Grammatron wrote: They might be piling on Bynum here but he is a huge difference on the court. Also as a young team Lakers just got a crash course on what's needed to get to the Finals AND win it. I could see how they can be favorites next year.
I dunno. Gasol, Vujo... Vagisil... whatever his name is, and Radmanovic didn't seem to have what it takes. And Kobe doesn't appear to be enough of a leader to draw the team together.
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Post by Grammatron »

Evolver wrote:
Grammatron wrote: They might be piling on Bynum here but he is a huge difference on the court. Also as a young team Lakers just got a crash course on what's needed to get to the Finals AND win it. I could see how they can be favorites next year.
I dunno. Gasol, Vujo... Vagisil... whatever his name is, and Radmanovic didn't seem to have what it takes. And Kobe doesn't appear to be enough of a leader to draw the team together.
Gasol was just not Physical enough for Boston, he needs to hit the gym for a bit. Vujacic is great, but his freshness made him a bit too trigger happy. Radmanovic...well he shoots a good 3 now and then but is useless for everything else. Maybe if he improved his D game he'd be something but as one of my friends put it, "There's nothing Rad about Radmanovic" :)

Kobe...well Kobe is Kobe and really he didn't do anything bad in the series. I have no worries with the Lakers. No one expected them in the finals this year and now everyone is expecting them to take it all in '09. The future looks bright :)
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Post by Doctor X »

Not as bright as the shine on that trophy the Celtics will win next year. . . .

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