Lakers vs. Celtics

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Grammatron
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Post by Grammatron » Fri Jun 13, 2008 5:10 pm

izittrue wrote:Awesome...
I says at halftime...Lakers will not score 100 points...
Where will kobe be next year?
Of course it ain't over till its....
With the Lakers. With Bynum and the rest of the team healthy they have the best team for the next 4-5 years.

However, I am not counting the Lakers, particularly Phil Jackson out just yet. The tweaking obviously worked for the first 2 quarters, now he has to just fine tune the rest of the game. It can be done, look no further than Boston's baseball team :P

Yes it was a monumental shot out and if I was Boston I'd be gloating and in-your-face-ing every Laker fan I knew, but it's not over yet. This series has always been the Lakers' to lose not Celtic's to win, IMHO.

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Post by Doctor X » Fri Jun 13, 2008 7:05 pm

I will disagree with your last point--the Cs have always been the better team, they just did not play like that for part of the post-season. I agree with various wonks that Cleveland and Detroit would have beaten the Lakers as well . . . who only get older . . . and more fractured next year.

However, it "ain't fo' until it fo'!!"

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Post by Grammatron » Fri Jun 13, 2008 7:24 pm

Doctor X wrote:I will disagree with your last point--the Cs have always been the better team, they just did not play like that for part of the post-season. I agree with various wonks that Cleveland and Detroit would have beaten the Lakers as well . . . who only get older . . . and more fractured next year.

However, it "ain't fo' until it fo'!!"

--J.D.
Well it would take pretty big balls for me to say Lakers are a better team with them being down 3 games in a best of 4 series in the finals, luckily...


Anywho, the Lakers lacked follow through and maturity of the bench and even couple of key players, to really display their abilities as a team. Pau, for all the bitching about the super-duper mid-season trade has been very lackluster in the finals. But, if he can step up the way Odom did they can win next 3. Not going to be easy, but then making history never is.

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Post by Doctor X » Fri Jun 13, 2008 9:46 pm

I generally hate the "the better team lost" arguments--*cough-cough*--but it is all about who plays best that day. The reason you do not hear too many Patriots fan bitch the "if we played them 100 times we would beat them 99.99937 times!" is because they know St. Louis fans would be more right with that argument!

. . . and . . . let us not bring up the Snow Bowl . . . it was in the rule book . . . not a fumble . . . no.

However, in a seven game series, the cream pretty much rises to the top--unless the refs give it to the Lakers! *cough* *cough*

Even in 2004 the Glorious Red Sox were generally favored. Had Schill had his surgery before his first start they win that game. They were two very close teams, but GRS pitching came through. Same with the 2007 Cleveland series.

This is why, actually, I was very concerned with facing the Lakers. All the Celtic-Fan-Boy arguments that the Lakers played "easier teams" aside, the Lakers destroyed their opponents in the post-season. The Celtics? They could not win on the road. They also lost badly on the road. They may have been "The Better Team" [Tm.--Ed.], but the Lakers appear to me to be playing a lot better.

And, frankly, the team that wins in the post season is the better team. I know a lot of people who point to a banner with "116 Wins!" as if it represents something.

Sort of like "Five Straight Division Titles."


:Waaaah:

--J.D.
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Post by izittrue » Mon Jun 16, 2008 1:51 pm

Almost another meltdown...makes interesting viewing.
NBA needs revenue...lets play another game.
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Post by Doctor X » Mon Jun 16, 2008 2:47 pm

izittrue wrote:Almost another meltdown...makes interesting viewing.
NBA needs revenue...lets play another game.
Let's call a foul a steal.

Granted, it helps if you can make your free throws. . . .

--J.D.
Mob of the Mean: Free beanie, cattle-prod and Charley Fan Club!
"Doctor X is just treating you the way he treats everyone--as subhuman crap too dumb to breathe in after you breathe out."--Don
DocX: FTW.--sparks
"Doctor X wins again."--Pyrrho
"Never sorry to make a racist Fucktard cry."--His Humble MagNIfIcence
"It was the criticisms of Doc X, actually, that let me see more clearly how far the hypocrisy had gone."--clarsct
"I'd leave it up to Doctor X who has been a benevolent tyrant so far."--Grammatron
"Indeed you are a river to your people.
Shit. That's going to end up in your sig."--Pyrrho
"Try a twelve step program and accept Doctor X as your High Power."--asthmatic camel
"just like Doc X said." --gnome

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Post by izittrue » Mon Jun 16, 2008 2:54 pm

Are you suggesting NBA needs replays?
OK...Boston your star players will get in foul trouble...We will give Kobe 4 fouls...but that's all he gets...
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Post by Doctor X » Mon Jun 16, 2008 3:33 pm

After putting the Cs starters in early foul trouble.

Michael Holley does not blame the refs, but he does note that Stern has a major problem with some of the refs. Apparently, Simon traced how one particular guy has been involved in every game in which it would be "beneficial" for the NBA if a series extended. I will try to find it.

Conspiracy theory? Probably, but the point Holley is making is with all the hooplah of "Spy Gate"--I would add steroids in baseball--there is now a general impression that officiating is highly subjective.

Will it matter?

Probably not. NBA is too popular. It is not like people are going to watch hockey or soccer in the late winter and early spring.

--J.D.
Mob of the Mean: Free beanie, cattle-prod and Charley Fan Club!
"Doctor X is just treating you the way he treats everyone--as subhuman crap too dumb to breathe in after you breathe out."--Don
DocX: FTW.--sparks
"Doctor X wins again."--Pyrrho
"Never sorry to make a racist Fucktard cry."--His Humble MagNIfIcence
"It was the criticisms of Doc X, actually, that let me see more clearly how far the hypocrisy had gone."--clarsct
"I'd leave it up to Doctor X who has been a benevolent tyrant so far."--Grammatron
"Indeed you are a river to your people.
Shit. That's going to end up in your sig."--Pyrrho
"Try a twelve step program and accept Doctor X as your High Power."--asthmatic camel
"just like Doc X said." --gnome

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Post by izittrue » Mon Jun 16, 2008 3:48 pm

I think the "scholared" fan knows there is something a bit fishy (and I don't mean xtian) with the refs and the calls. But that can be argued in every sport ..except perhaps America's past time...but hey they may bring in replays for home runs and stuff...
Yes no one will watch hockey unless it's the original 6 teams and do away with expansion.
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Post by ck » Mon Jun 16, 2008 3:57 pm

Why the hell was Derek Fisher benched so long? He's a very smart player, very dangerous, and so should be on the court as much as possible. I think this may have also helped the Celtics get back into the game. Not that I mind at all, certainly not, keep making choices like that, Phil...
Yes no one will watch hockey unless it's the original 6 teams and do away with expansion.
Yes that seems to be the case, and I think expansion has largely killed the sport. Hell, the Redwings won the Stanley Cup this year. I live in Michigan, and have yet to encounter anyone who gives a shit.

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Post by Grammatron » Mon Jun 16, 2008 4:44 pm

izittrue wrote:I think the "scholared" fan knows there is something a bit fishy (and I don't mean xtian) with the refs and the calls. But that can be argued in every sport ..except perhaps America's past time...but hey they may bring in replays for home runs and stuff...
Yes no one will watch hockey unless it's the original 6 teams and do away with expansion.

No one will watch the games if they are not in big markets.

Who the hell cares if it's Grizzlies vs. Magic?

I don't think there's any big conspiracy further than refs are influenced by the home court. Going back to Boston you'll see that shit reversed...once again.

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Post by izittrue » Mon Jun 16, 2008 4:54 pm

Yep home court refs...that is what the NBA is all about.
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Post by Doctor X » Mon Jun 16, 2008 5:23 pm

Which it really should not be.

You can never make a sport utterly completely 110 % fair. No one argues for that. Get the calls right that the technology allows you to get right.

I am glad the Luddites of Baseball are starting to realize that fans do care when you fuck up HR calls. Fans also understand these are not always easy calls to make at the time. However, when you see the play thrown up on a big screen in "slow-mo" and everyone can see the call was wrong . . . it breeds conspiracy theories.

There was a poster HERE who would claim the NFL games were "fixed." Whatever the outcome, of course, he could find "fixed." I listened to a commentator at the time who dealt with the "fixed" claim from a caller--"fixed for Peyton Manning" to my recollection.

"So stop watching NFL!" was the response. If it is "fixed," why do you watch it? The guy did not have an answer.

It is not so much of the reality of "fixed," but the impression. The same commentator explained Spy Gate in that way: you can argue all you want whether or not Belichick--"HOW do I REEECH these KEEEDS?!"--gains a "material advantage"--the impression is he did. Period.

Of course, it does not help the situation when an NBA ref is caught fixing games and accuses a bunch of other ref who have a reputation of "questionable calls." As another put it, "why is a formerly suspended ref refereeing a FINALS game?"

--J.D.
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"Doctor X is just treating you the way he treats everyone--as subhuman crap too dumb to breathe in after you breathe out."--Don
DocX: FTW.--sparks
"Doctor X wins again."--Pyrrho
"Never sorry to make a racist Fucktard cry."--His Humble MagNIfIcence
"It was the criticisms of Doc X, actually, that let me see more clearly how far the hypocrisy had gone."--clarsct
"I'd leave it up to Doctor X who has been a benevolent tyrant so far."--Grammatron
"Indeed you are a river to your people.
Shit. That's going to end up in your sig."--Pyrrho
"Try a twelve step program and accept Doctor X as your High Power."--asthmatic camel
"just like Doc X said." --gnome

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Post by Grammatron » Mon Jun 16, 2008 6:10 pm

Doctor X wrote:Which it really should not be.

You can never make a sport utterly completely 110 % fair. No one argues for that. Get the calls right that the technology allows you to get right.

I am glad the Luddites of Baseball are starting to realize that fans do care when you fuck up HR calls. Fans also understand these are not always easy calls to make at the time. However, when you see the play thrown up on a big screen in "slow-mo" and everyone can see the call was wrong . . . it breeds conspiracy theories.

There was a poster HERE who would claim the NFL games were "fixed." Whatever the outcome, of course, he could find "fixed." I listened to a commentator at the time who dealt with the "fixed" claim from a caller--"fixed for Peyton Manning" to my recollection.

"So stop watching NFL!" was the response. If it is "fixed," why do you watch it? The guy did not have an answer.

It is not so much of the reality of "fixed," but the impression. The same commentator explained Spy Gate in that way: you can argue all you want whether or not Belichick--"HOW do I REEECH these KEEEDS?!"--gains a "material advantage"--the impression is he did. Period.

Of course, it does not help the situation when an NBA ref is caught fixing games and accuses a bunch of other ref who have a reputation of "questionable calls." As another put it, "why is a formerly suspended ref refereeing a FINALS game?"

--J.D.
Indeed.

NBA keeps saying they will change the way the officiate games and this shitstorm just might push them to it. However, short of reviewable plays I don't see how they can accomplish it. It's a very face-paced game with a couple guys trying to watch the entire fucking court while people think you are scum from few feet away.

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Post by Evolver » Mon Jun 16, 2008 8:12 pm

Grammatron wrote: I don't think there's any big conspiracy further than refs are influenced by the home court. Going back to Boston you'll see that shit reversed...once again.
Agreed. I heard Tommy Heinsohn on the radio a few weeks back saying that the refs get caught up in the home court cheering, and somewhere deep down they feel the crowd is cheering for them.
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Post by Doctor X » Mon Jun 16, 2008 9:44 pm

Grammatron wrote:NBA keeps saying they will change the way the officiate games and this shitstorm just might push them to it. However, short of reviewable plays I don't see how they can accomplish it. It's a very face-paced game with a couple guys trying to watch the entire fucking court while people think you are scum from few feet away.
It will have to be more than simply fining the shit out of owners and coaches who state the obvious. I am now repeating what I heard--so take it with the appropriate scoop of salt--but there seems to be a denial on the part of Sterns and the Powers that Be with regards to better training of officials and, more importantly, demoting and getting rid of those who simply do not past muster.

I cannot recall the incident off the top of my head, but there was an official who was suspended for calling fouls on . . . Lebron? I forget . . . because he did not like him. Sorry. That ref never works again. Period. When it is that obvious, he has to go. He does not later officiate a playoff game where that player is involved!

--J.D.
Mob of the Mean: Free beanie, cattle-prod and Charley Fan Club!
"Doctor X is just treating you the way he treats everyone--as subhuman crap too dumb to breathe in after you breathe out."--Don
DocX: FTW.--sparks
"Doctor X wins again."--Pyrrho
"Never sorry to make a racist Fucktard cry."--His Humble MagNIfIcence
"It was the criticisms of Doc X, actually, that let me see more clearly how far the hypocrisy had gone."--clarsct
"I'd leave it up to Doctor X who has been a benevolent tyrant so far."--Grammatron
"Indeed you are a river to your people.
Shit. That's going to end up in your sig."--Pyrrho
"Try a twelve step program and accept Doctor X as your High Power."--asthmatic camel
"just like Doc X said." --gnome

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Post by You May Award The Try » Mon Jun 16, 2008 10:07 pm

Grammatron wrote:
NBA keeps saying they will change the way the officiate games and this shitstorm just might push them to it. However, short of reviewable plays I don't see how they can accomplish it. It's a very face-paced game with a couple guys trying to watch the entire fucking court while people think you are scum from few feet away.
Some rules probably need to be changed so that virtually every drive to the basket does not result in a foul that stops the game. No more defensive fouls when the offensive player in any way seeks to inititate contact for one. Look to create less whistles, not more.

Add that to extensive review to make calls more consistent from ref to ref and to weed out the poor performers. Make up for the extreme demands and quick hook by paying refs on par with the players, which will also make buying a ref a bit more expensive.

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Post by Evolver » Mon Jun 16, 2008 10:53 pm

And a pony for every fan.
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Post by Grammatron » Tue Jun 17, 2008 9:48 pm

Doctor X wrote:
Grammatron wrote:NBA keeps saying they will change the way the officiate games and this shitstorm just might push them to it. However, short of reviewable plays I don't see how they can accomplish it. It's a very face-paced game with a couple guys trying to watch the entire fucking court while people think you are scum from few feet away.
It will have to be more than simply fining the shit out of owners and coaches who state the obvious. I am now repeating what I heard--so take it with the appropriate scoop of salt--but there seems to be a denial on the part of Sterns and the Powers that Be with regards to better training of officials and, more importantly, demoting and getting rid of those who simply do not past muster.

I cannot recall the incident off the top of my head, but there was an official who was suspended for calling fouls on . . . Lebron? I forget . . . because he did not like him. Sorry. That ref never works again. Period. When it is that obvious, he has to go. He does not later officiate a playoff game where that player is involved!

--J.D.
Not sure if this the referee you were thinking of:

http://myespn.go.com/blogs/truehoop/0-3 ... erees.html
Crawford is very highly regarded. But just a year ago, Crawford was suspended indefinitely, reportedly for challenging Tim Duncan to a fight in the middle of a game.
Yikes.

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Post by Doctor X » Tue Jun 17, 2008 10:12 pm

I think so.

I heard a discussion on how Stern notes that they review the tape of every call in the NBA . . . blah . . . blah . . . yet, for some reasons, the same refs keep coming back. As one put it, "he just does not see it," as in he just does not see the problem.

--J.D.

P.S. Oh . . . and this just in: Sen. Alan Specter--taking a cue from Hillary Clinton--is suspending his investigation of "SpyGate." When asked about investigating the growing NBA referee scandals, Specter commented that he was "not interested."

Lolz.
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DocX: FTW.--sparks
"Doctor X wins again."--Pyrrho
"Never sorry to make a racist Fucktard cry."--His Humble MagNIfIcence
"It was the criticisms of Doc X, actually, that let me see more clearly how far the hypocrisy had gone."--clarsct
"I'd leave it up to Doctor X who has been a benevolent tyrant so far."--Grammatron
"Indeed you are a river to your people.
Shit. That's going to end up in your sig."--Pyrrho
"Try a twelve step program and accept Doctor X as your High Power."--asthmatic camel
"just like Doc X said." --gnome

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