Never agree to 3 points on top of the vig.
Rob Lister
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http://www.suntimes.com/sports/colleges ... first.html

I'll start: At least this way they'll actually have attendance at the games.

Abdul Alhazred
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Feh!

Please note: That is an aesthetic judgement, not a moral judgement.
The arc of the moral universe bends towards chaos.
People who believe God or History are on their side provide the chaos.

Rob Lister
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Whereas I was putting aesthetics utterly aside.

As they pertain to him ... or her (I capitulate), they simply are not relevant.

What is relevant is the sideshow. Because that's what this creates.

Is it really possible to say that performance enhancement drugs are wrong but this is okay?

Is it possible to record the outcome of any game wherein she plays and not include a footnote?

This would make an interesting segue into the 'skeptics in the news' thread. I can't think of a more appropriate, more perfect keynote speaker for one of the neoskeptics conferences. She could be Rebecca's bodyguard too.

I could go on but it would get ugly.

Abdul Alhazred
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... sideshow ...
Some might say that of women's basketball even without the surgical controversy.
The arc of the moral universe bends towards chaos.
People who believe God or History are on their side provide the chaos.

Anaxagoras
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Rob Lister wrote:Is it really possible to say that performance enhancement drugs are wrong but this is okay?
For the time being yes. If it turns out that 20 years from now all women's sports are dominated by transgender women like certain sports came to be dominated by cheaters, I may revisit the question. ATM, I am not aware of any women's sport where the top athlete is transgender. In this particular case, I suspect that a 50-year-old will have a hard time keeping up with 20-year-old women.
Is it possible to record the outcome of any game wherein she plays and not include a footnote?
I'm not sure what you mean "is it possible" but in the event I imagine that there will be footnotes. It's not going to go unremarked upon. People like yourself will see to that.
A fool thinks himself to be wise, but a wise man knows himself to be a fool.
William Shakespeare

Rob Lister
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Seem to me that if you think it is okay 'for the time being', but might need to be revisited if it becomes more frequent, then you see the problem I see, but you are willing to procrastinate. What if the player in question was 20, instead of 50? Is it still fair to the opposing team?

It goes to the question of why we have womens' teams in the first place. Maybe the issue really lies there.

Abdul Alhazred
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Rob Lister wrote:It goes to the question of why we have womens' teams in the first place.
To prevent sports from being completely male dominated.
The arc of the moral universe bends towards chaos.
People who believe God or History are on their side provide the chaos.

Anaxagoras
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Rob Lister wrote:Seem to me that if you think it is okay 'for the time being', but might need to be revisited if it becomes more frequent, then you see the problem I see, but you are willing to procrastinate. What if the player in question was 20, instead of 50? Is it still fair to the opposing team?

It goes to the question of why we have womens' teams in the first place. Maybe the issue really lies there.
I see the theoretical problem, but I don't think it is a real world problem at the moment, and may indeed never rise to the level of being enough of a real world problem to require a solution. So I wouldn't call it procrastinating but "don't fix something that isn't broken". Perhaps a more pressing issue is what about Oscar Pistorius and his fancy prosthetic legs.

The Supreme Court generally doesn't take up issues on the basis of "it might theoretically violate the Constitution some day" but usually waits until there is an actual case where some real person is affected. I think the same principle should be applied here.

Why I think it might never rise to the level of being a serious problem:
1) The number of trans people is very small to begin with.
2) The number of male-to-female transsexuals who are jocks is probably vanishingly small.
3) If they are taking female hormones and had sex reassignment surgery that would tend to reduce their athletic advantage if they have one to begin with.

But if this all proves to be false, then yes, I'm happy to revisit the question once there are some actual examples of transgender women dominating women's sports.
A fool thinks himself to be wise, but a wise man knows himself to be a fool.
William Shakespeare

Doctor X
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I mean, seriously, women's basketball. . . .

--J.D.
Mob of the Mean: Free beanie, cattle-prod and Charley Fan Club!
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WS CHAMPIONS X4!!!! NBA CHAMPIONS!! Stanley Cup! SB CHAMPIONS X6!!!!!!

Rob Lister
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Abdul Alhazred wrote:
Rob Lister wrote:It goes to the question of why we have womens' teams in the first place.
To prevent sports from being completely male dominated.
(Newser) – The former Miss Pennsylvania will pay a steep price for claiming the Miss USA pageant was rigged: An arbitrator has ordered Sheena Monnin to pay the Donald Trump-owned pageant organization $5 million for defaming it. The arbitrator found that Monnin was "disgruntled" after failing to make it out of the preliminary competition as well as angry about the pageant's decision to allow transgender contestants, and that her false allegations cost the pageant a$5 million potential 2013 sponsor.
I thought this was a humorous.

I suppose beauty pageants mean different things to different people. Apparently, the dudette was more qualified than was she for the title, and she was a little angry about that, saying it was fixed. The only thing a outsider such as myself can take from this is that political correctness is a major part of the pageant process, but that doesn't make it 'fixed' per se.

ETA: And for the record, I've yet to see a pageant winner that wasn't totally and completely fake. Perhaps that is the real qualification.

ed
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If there were \$ in it I could see a vast effort to surgically transform male athletes in to females to invade and conquer womens tennis and golf and a host of other lucerative spor..... hmmmm .... never mind.

Abdul Alhazred
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Women's sports isn't where the money is.

Wait'll there's some trans-man athlete going in the other direction.
The arc of the moral universe bends towards chaos.
People who believe God or History are on their side provide the chaos.

ed
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Joined: Tue Jun 08, 2004 11:52 pm
Title: G_D

God ....Abdul.... an oppertunity ....

All we have to do is cionvince Romainia to take a leadership position in the bnew transgendered sports Tsunami. Then they can build a stadium and be the centroid of the new ports from the site of the new stadium and braoadcasting facilities:

Its a big one

TRANSsylvania

Consulting done at modest rates.

ed
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Joined: Tue Jun 08, 2004 11:52 pm
Title: G_D

WELCOME TO TRANSsylvania!!!!!

Home of all TRANS-gender Sports!!!!

Remember that TRANSsylvania stands for "Wood of the Trannies"

That "Wood" means that we have you coming or going!!! Either way, you are covered!!!!

this is so fucking brilliant that I can barely contain myself!!!

Abdul Alhazred
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Joined: Mon Jun 07, 2004 1:33 pm
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Location: Chicago

The arc of the moral universe bends towards chaos.
People who believe God or History are on their side provide the chaos.

ed
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Joined: Tue Jun 08, 2004 11:52 pm
Title: G_D

I'll have the last laff.

Abdul Alhazred
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Please note I am not making assertions about the "realness" or otherwise of transgender people. Only that it does not matter under current conditions in women's sports.

Not whether you'd want your sister to marry one.
The arc of the moral universe bends towards chaos.
People who believe God or History are on their side provide the chaos.

Rob Lister
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Joined: Sun Jul 18, 2004 7:15 pm
Title: Incipient toppler
Location: Swimming in Lake Ed

Abdul Alhazred wrote:Not whether you'd want your sister to marry one.
I'd be fine with my sister marrying one. Whatever trips her trigger is fine by me.

I'm also fine with that team or that team's league pretending she's eligible to play; I don't have a vested interest and whatever trips their politically correct trigger is also fine by me.

It's still absurd.

ed
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Title: G_D

Wasn't the word for such a person "ringer"?

Rob Lister
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Title: Incipient toppler
Location: Swimming in Lake Ed

Anaxagoras wrote:
Rob Lister wrote:Is it really possible to say that performance enhancement drugs are wrong but this is okay?
For the time being yes. If it turns out that 20 years from now all women's sports are dominated by transgender women like certain sports came to be dominated by cheaters, I may revisit the question. ATM, I am not aware of any women's sport where the top athlete is transgender. In this particular case, I suspect that a 50-year-old will have a hard time keeping up with 20-year-old women.
Times. They are a'changing.
'She has every right to compete with women': Transgender weightlifter sparks criticism after competition win

A Kiwi weightlifter has made history as the first transgender athlete to represent New Zealand and come away with a win, however the victory has been slammed by other competitors.

Laurel Hubbard, 39, won the women's over 90kg division at the Australian International competition in Melbourne on Sunday, but the win has caused a stir with some believing she had an unfair advantage.

Her combined total of 268kg was nearly 20kg better than Samoan runner-up Iuniarra Sipaia, with another 20kg back to the next lifter in the field.
The performance puts Hubbard in line for selection at the 2017 Commonwealth Games on the Gold Coast.

While her eligibility passed the International Olympic Committee's criteria, Hubbard's win was met with criticism from Australian competitors who believe a transgender athlete in the female weightlifting category was not an equal playing field.