## NFL owners are 'f-----g terrified' of Trump, report says

Never agree to 3 points on top of the vig.
xouper
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### Re: NFL owners are 'f-----g terrified' of Trump, report says

RCC: Act II wrote:It is an employee-employer issue for the most part. It is however curious when people who claim to be economic conservatives see nothing wrong with the president forcing a private business to adopt a code of employee behavior that suits his political preference.
In general, I agree with your sentiment.

In this particular case, however, the NFL gets taxpayer money which complicates the issue bigly.

Perhaps I have misunderstood your point?

Pyrrho
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### Re: NFL owners are 'f-----g terrified' of Trump, report says

All the more reason for the NFL to support freedom of speech.
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Doctor X
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### Re: NFL owners are 'f-----g terrified' of Trump, report says

Then they would have to listen to what people say about Goodell's competence and, in the case of certain owners of Indy, Washington, NYJ, their sanity.

--J.D.
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Pyrrho
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### Re: NFL owners are 'f-----g terrified' of Trump, report says

If market indicators suggested that players kneeling for the anthem increased TV viewership and game attendance, I suspect that the NFL and the owners would be encouraging players to kneel and making somber statements of support.

As it is, the wind is blowing the other way.
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xouper
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### Re: NFL owners are 'f-----g terrified' of Trump, report says

xouper wrote:. . . the NFL gets taxpayer money which complicates the issue bigly.
Pyrrho wrote:All the more reason for the NFL to support freedom of speech.
Maybe yes, maybe no. Federal employees do not have full right of free speech while on the job.

xouper
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### Re: NFL owners are 'f-----g terrified' of Trump, report says

As a former customer of the NFL, I was paying to be entertained and have a few moments free from politics, not to have disrespect for my country pushed in my face.

The NBA doesn't allow disrespect during the anthem, so where is all the outrage about that?

Abdul Alhazred
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### Re: NFL owners are 'f-----g terrified' of Trump, report says

xouper wrote:As a former customer of the NFL, I was paying to be entertained and have a few moments free from politics, not to have disrespect for my country pushed in my face.

The NBA doesn't allow disrespect during the anthem, so where is all the outrage about that?
The difference is ...

Rednecks have always tended to be indifferent to the NBA anyway.

The point being, the NFL players in question are publicly saying "fuck you" a significant segment of their audience, on purpose as such.

This is bad for business, and all the rest is pretending that's not what's going on.
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RCC: Act II
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### Re: NFL owners are 'f-----g terrified' of Trump, report says

xouper wrote:As a former customer of the NFL, I was paying to be entertained and have a few moments free from politics, not to have disrespect for my country pushed in my face.
As a former customer of the NFL, I was paying to be entertained and have a few moments free from politics, not to see forced displays of jingoistic patriotism.

The NBA doesn't allow disrespect during the anthem, so where is all the outrage about that?
There is way more respect between NBA players and the NBA establishment because the NBA has a track record of unconditional support for the social justice issues the players are concerned about. The NBA establishment has earned the players' trust to the point where the players are willing to follow along with this rule and use their platforms in other ways.

Rule or no rule, If you think the league would be able to stop it if the players decided to kneel, you are living in a dreamworld. They aren't kneeling by choice.

xouper
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### Re: NFL owners are 'f-----g terrified' of Trump, report says

RCC: Act II wrote:
xouper wrote:As a former customer of the NFL, I was paying to be entertained and have a few moments free from politics, not to have disrespect for my country pushed in my face.
As a former customer of the NFL, I was paying to be entertained and have a few moments free from politics, not to see forced displays of jingoistic patriotism.
Touché.

Reminds me of a bumper sticker: "If you try to please everyone, someone won't like it."

Another bumper sticker: "Follow the money."

RCC: Act II wrote:Rule or no rule, If you think the league would be able to stop it if the players decided to kneel, . . .
The NFL successfully prevents (and punishes) many forms of employee "expression" that the NFL does not approve of. (I assume I don't need to post a list.) Why do you say they would not also be able to stop the kneeling during the anthem?

RCC: Act II wrote:Rule or no rule, If you think . . . , you are living in a dreamworld.
No need to get snippy. I am not your adversary here. We are just having a conversation, not a pissing contest.

RCC: Act II wrote:They aren't kneeling by choice.
I'm not following what you mean by that. (It's Monday and I may have forgot to bring my brain to the office.) I assume you are not saying that someone is forcing those players to kneel against their wishes, therefore I assume you mean something else?

RCC: Act II
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### Re: NFL owners are 'f-----g terrified' of Trump, report says

xouper wrote:
RCC: Act II wrote:Rule or no rule, If you think the league would be able to stop it if the players decided to kneel, . . .
The NFL successfully prevents (and punishes) many forms of employee "expression" that the NFL does not approve of. (I assume I don't need to post a list.) Why do you say they would not also be able to stop the kneeling during the anthem?
Leverage. The NBA is a star driven league. The NFL is more team driven. The NBA players have way, way more leverage than NFL players. Careers in the NBA last longer, the players are more visible, they make way, way more money, and talent translates to results far more directly than in the NFL. Football in general has a far more militaristic culture than does basketball, so the players are less likely to revolt en masse.

Also, NBA players are a pretty tight knit bunch. There aren't a lot of them compared to football and they come up through the same AAU ranks, basketball prep schools, and so on. There is a strong sense of solidarity and community among those that make it to the NBA.

Going even further upstream, if the top 20 players in the NBA decided to ditch the NBA and start a player owned league, it would have a remote chance because they'd have the money and the public profile to pull it off. That would never happen with football.

That all adds up to leverage. And leverage means not having to take shit from the man. They don't kneel because they don't see it as necessary.

RCC: Act II wrote:Rule or no rule, If you think . . . , you are living in a dreamworld.
No need to get snippy. I am not your adversary here. We are just having a conversation, not a pissing contest.
Sorry.

RCC: Act II wrote:They aren't kneeling by choice.
I'm not following what you mean by that. (It's Monday and I may have forgot to bring my brain to the office.) I assume you are not saying that someone is forcing those players to kneel against their wishes, therefore I assume you mean something else?
They are by choice not kneeling.

Rob Lister
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### Re: NFL owners are 'f-----g terrified' of Trump, report says

xouper wrote:
RCC: Act II wrote:They aren't kneeling by choice.
I'm not following what you mean by that. (It's Monday and I may have forgot to bring my brain to the office.) I assume you are not saying that someone is forcing those players to kneel against their wishes, therefore I assume you mean something else?
They are by choice not kneeling.[/quote]

I'm guessing you think that the "team" aspect of the NFL prevents those that would not otherwise kneel from standing. I think that is likely. Like you I don't like mixing politics with sports. Like you I am a [mostly] former customer of the NFL. I don't know about you but this issue does not endear me to the sport. I don't give a rat's ass who kneels or not to what but I sure don't want to hear four hours commentary on any particular issue based on an otherwise far-too-commercial-filled three hour game. And I sure as shit wouldn't pay $300 to see it live. RCC: Act II Posts: 904 Joined: Thu Dec 07, 2017 2:56 am ### Re: NFL owners are 'f-----g terrified' of Trump, report says Rob Lister wrote: I'm guessing you think that the "team" aspect of the NFL prevents those that would not otherwise kneel from standing. I think that is likely. Like you I don't like mixing politics with sports. Like you I am a [mostly] former customer of the NFL. I don't know about you but this issue does not endear me to the sport. I don't give a rat's ass who kneels or not to what but I sure don't want to hear four hours commentary on any particular issue based on an otherwise far-too-commercial-filled three hour game. And I sure as shit wouldn't pay$300 to see it live.
As a practical matter I don't think mixing politics and sport can be avoided. There are too many things involved in the status quo that are inherently political, and addressing that and maybe removing the political nature of that requires being aware of such political nature. Eliminating politics from sport would be a herculean task that itself would be both political and, well, continuing.

Like the anthem at games. The real solution to removing politics from sport is to not play the anthem at all. Playing the anthem and socially compelling people to show respect is, after all, political.

Those that accuse the kneeling players of bringing politics into sport have, assuming good faith, a blind spot as to the fact that what they see as the default, that is players standing for the anthem, is itself political. What they are really saying is they don't want to mix sports and politics when the politics are those they don't care for.

Pretty close to 100% of the time there is a complaint that politics shouldn't be in sport, the real complaint is that the speaker doesn't want the political values reflected by the status quo to be challenged. Ignoring politics isn't apolitical. It is an implicit endorsement of the status quo.

ed
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### Re: NFL owners are 'f-----g terrified' of Trump, report says

RCC: Act II wrote: Like the anthem at games. The real solution to removing politics from sport is to not play the anthem at all. Playing the anthem and socially compelling people to show respect is, after all, political.
Censoring the anthem is far more a political statement than some overpaid ninnies kneeling.
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### Re: NFL owners are 'f-----g terrified' of Trump, report says

ed wrote:
RCC: Act II wrote: Like the anthem at games. The real solution to removing politics from sport is to not play the anthem at all. Playing the anthem and socially compelling people to show respect is, after all, political.
Censoring the anthem is far more a political statement than some overpaid ninnies kneeling.
I don't understand how removing the anthem from a sporting event is censorship

xouper
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### Re: NFL owners are 'f-----g terrified' of Trump, report says

RCC: Act II wrote:As a practical matter I don't think mixing politics and sport can be avoided. There are too many things involved in the status quo that are inherently political, and addressing that and maybe removing the political nature of that requires being aware of such political nature. Eliminating politics from sport would be a herculean task that itself would be both political and, well, continuing.

Like the anthem at games. The real solution to removing politics from sport is to not play the anthem at all. Playing the anthem and socially compelling people to show respect is, after all, political.

Those that accuse the kneeling players of bringing politics into sport have, assuming good faith, a blind spot as to the fact that what they see as the default, that is players standing for the anthem, is itself political. What they are really saying is they don't want to mix sports and politics when the politics are those they don't care for.

Pretty close to 100% of the time there is a complaint that politics shouldn't be in sport, the real complaint is that the speaker doesn't want the political values reflected by the status quo to be challenged. Ignoring politics isn't apolitical. It is an implicit endorsement of the status quo.
Many of your points make sense, but I disagree with your usage of the word "political" in this context. It certainly isn't consistent with any of my dictionaries. Playing the anthem is not necessarily political, nor is it necessarily an endorsement of the status quo. Perhaps a different word might be more accurate.

Nonetheless, in my opinion, the NFL player-protesters are behaving like spoiled brats. They are claiming a legal right for themselves that
almost no one else in the US has.

Rob Lister
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### Re: NFL owners are 'f-----g terrified' of Trump, report says

Grammatron wrote:
ed wrote:
RCC: Act II wrote: Like the anthem at games. The real solution to removing politics from sport is to not play the anthem at all. Playing the anthem and socially compelling people to show respect is, after all, political.
Censoring the anthem is far more a political statement than some overpaid ninnies kneeling.
I don't understand how removing the anthem from a sporting event is censorship
Clearly it isn't unless they do it for a reason. It gets its own set of commercials, after all.

ed
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### Re: NFL owners are 'f-----g terrified' of Trump, report says

Grammatron wrote:
ed wrote:
RCC: Act II wrote: Like the anthem at games. The real solution to removing politics from sport is to not play the anthem at all. Playing the anthem and socially compelling people to show respect is, after all, political.
Censoring the anthem is far more a political statement than some overpaid ninnies kneeling.
I don't understand how removing the anthem from a sporting event is censorship
They are avoiding "trouble" by removing it. In effect, the ninnies exercised a sophisticated form of the hecklers veto.
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Grammatron
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### Re: NFL owners are 'f-----g terrified' of Trump, report says

ed wrote:
Grammatron wrote:
ed wrote:
RCC: Act II wrote: Like the anthem at games. The real solution to removing politics from sport is to not play the anthem at all. Playing the anthem and socially compelling people to show respect is, after all, political.
Censoring the anthem is far more a political statement than some overpaid ninnies kneeling.
I don't understand how removing the anthem from a sporting event is censorship
They are avoiding "trouble" by removing it. In effect, the ninnies exercised a sophisticated form of the hecklers veto.
And that is censoring?

Doctor X
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### Re: NFL owners are 'f-----g terrified' of Trump, report says

It is an example of Political Reality.

As we ["We?--Ed.] have debated, one of the reasons there has not been a solution to marijuana legalization, with now a gradual creep, was "YOU WANT CHILDREN TO DO THE DRUGS!"

Go back further, the same stupidity occurred with civil rights: "You want YOUR CHILDREN raped by gays/blacks/Gram's Mom!"

Politicians being dependent on votes to maintain their snouts in the troughs, have to pay attention to this stupidity. Call it "pandering" at best, it prevents progress at worse.

So . . . Товар[Прекрати--Ed.] Comrade Gram, you want to DEPRIVE OUR CHILDREN OF FREEDOM?!!!1!!

--J.D.

P.S. As enough Sports Dudes noted, there are a few things different in the NBA. First, and foremost, they have a collectively bargained agreement to stand respectfully for anthems. It is a rule. The players long ago signed off on it. The NFL does not have this which is why trying to directly fine the players "is a problem." The Ginger Dildo can try the "Conduct Unbecoming" Elastic Clause as I have suggested, but that will still end up in court and who knows.

Second, and more effective, the current commissioner is both effective, respected, and loved. His immediate suspension and initiating the process of removal of the Well-Known and Tolerated Racist owner of the Clippers with an "I don't care if he sues!" quickly soothed the sensibilities of players who were, understandably, pissed off and threatening boycotts. That all ended in about a day. Not being the Egotistical Ass-Hat that is Ginger Dildo, Silver--Heaven's to Betsy!--communicated directly with player representatives that day. He let everyone know he would deal with it immediately; this would not "simmer" for weeks with the appearance of hoping it would "go away."

Third, the NBA allows and supports player activism outside the court. That creates a very different attitude: Princess James can say what he wants without fear of being "cut," certainly, but the same applies for J'qwan Finkelmez, the New Orleans pick playing in the Canadian league based in Bahrain. . . .

Because . . . the NBA players have guaranteed contracts. The NFL do not. The NBA has a strong enough union with few enough players. One or two players per team shuts that team down. A strike would be disasterous for the NBA, because it is not like there are bunches of NBA quality basketball players "waiting for their chance" out there. If the owners try to lock out players, they face independently wealthy players who can mount legal challenges. Fans know them and worship them.

Still, Ginger Dildo could have solved this very easily by applying a similar approach. Instead he, and the owners, lived up to their negative stereotypes as "slave owners." So players who fight this are not only "Fighting Trump" they are "sticking it to Ginger Dildo."

Finally, [ZZZzzzzzzZZ--Ed.] not all of the owners agree with Ginger Dildo. So you have owners claiming they will simply pay any fine for their players if they kneel.

--J.D.
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xouper
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### Re: NFL owners are 'f-----g terrified' of Trump, report says

xouper wrote:The NBA doesn't allow disrespect during the anthem, so where is all the outrage about that?
Thanks to RCC and Doctor X for explaining the differences between the NBA and the NFL. You have sufficiently answered my question and therefore I withdraw my (implied) objection.

I appreciate that you took the time and effort to do that without attacking me for asking. You have persuaded me to revise my understanding.

My other question is still on the table: If there is no provision in the employee contract otherwise, why do employees think they have a legal right (during the performance of their job) to express whatever they want in front of the customers? Is the law not settled on that issue?