Ask me about Star Trek, SC edition

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gnome
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Re: Ask me about Star Trek, SC edition

Post by gnome »

Doctor X wrote:Must admit I have not read nor watched Star Trek in a very long time--pretty much after the good movies--the last of which being Star Trek VI--because Kim Cattrall. One of the best cast of the films.

I use to love tormenting New Trek fans trying to make excuses for it. The good shows were old Trek shows regurgitated. I love Sir Patrick as an actor--watch him toss people off his castle defending his daughter's honor! "If a BOY has been CHOSEN! I BOY SHALL BE KING!" Awesome actor.

Series? Meh.

It is sort of like Bond for me--time to move on to something new.

--J.D.
If for some reason you wound up not having something of far more importance to read, such as the phone book they deliver outside your home--if you happened to consider more Trek reading I'd suggest the "Eugenics Wars" trilogy series by Cox.
Doctor X
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Re: Ask me about Star Trek, SC edition

Post by Doctor X »

Between the normal boring old stuff I have to read, I got hooked on a long complex Japanese Original series that makes the Ringu-Razen-Rūpu series seem straight-forward. :oops:

--J.D.
Nyarlathotep
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Re: Ask me about Star Trek, SC edition

Post by Nyarlathotep »

I have yet to find a Star Trek novelization that I truly enjoyed, though I admit I haven't tried any by big name sci-fi authors like Blish.

But generally, bleh.
gnome
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Re: Ask me about Star Trek, SC edition

Post by gnome »

For you I'd recommend Peter David stuff if you find yourself looking for it.
Nyarlathotep
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Re: Ask me about Star Trek, SC edition

Post by Nyarlathotep »

I don't know. I have been sucked in by enough Star Trek novels that had synopses that sounded really interesting, but then I read them and found myself really annoyed by their terribleness, that I have an almost instinctual aversion to them no.
gnome
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Re: Ask me about Star Trek, SC edition

Post by gnome »

Like I keep admitting, there's plenty of better stuff to read that's not Trek related at all.
Doctor X
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Re: Ask me about Star Trek, SC edition

Post by Doctor X »

Just too much "Fan Fiction" frankly. As a very Wee Spud I enjoyed Blish's novelizations of what were Star Trek episodes. However, his novel Spoke Must Die sucked as most novelizations do.

One problem may be high expectation: "we" know what we like and when someone gets it wrong it pisses us off. Oddly enough, the Bestest Star Trek film nearly became the worse if they used the original scripts. As has been told too many times Nimoy about had it with Star Trek and The Motionless Picture really pissed him off. He and DeForest Kelly tried to add some of their banter--no. I found that funny when I first heard about because when I saw The Motionless Picture Me Dad and I concluded that "something's missing."

We returned home, turned on the television--there is a Star Trek rerun of course! I, Mudd. In the opening McCoy complains that there is this crewman who is strange--Thanks interwebs:
NORMAN: Good morning, sir, Doctor.
SPOCK: Something wrong?
MCCOY: Yes. There's something odd about that man, and I can't quite pinpoint it.
SPOCK: Perhaps you're making a rather hasty judgment. Mister Norman has only been aboard seventy two hours.
MCCOY: I know when something doesn't strike me right, and he doesn't.
SPOCK: Specifics, Doctor. Labels do not make arguments.
MCCOY: All right. There's something wrong about a man who never smiles, whose conversation never varies from the routine of the job, and who won't talk about his background.
SPOCK: I see. Spock actually stops short and stares at McCoy for a moment with his "I am Irritated Even Though I Show No Emotion, You Fuck!" stare.
MCCOY: Spock, I mean that it's odd for a non-Vulcan. The ears make all the difference.
SPOCK: I find your argument strewn with gaping defects in logic.
MCCOY: Maybe, but you can't evaluate a man by logic alone. Besides, he has avoided two appointments that I've made for his physical exam without reason.
SPOCK: That's not at all surprising, Doctor. He's probably terrified of your beads and rattles.
"That's it!" Me Dad said.

And indeed, the "ending" of TMP is Scotty telling Spock they can bring him back to Vulcan in a few days. The script read--and The Suits Insisted on Retaining: "My task on Vulcan is complete."

Nimoy wanted to say something along the lines of, "Since you are retaining the good doctor, my need here is greater than ever." Just one nice old Spock-McCoy jab. Nope.

Put it this way, even the clueless hack Lucas did not make Harrison Ford correct his "I know" ad-lib. "Harrison, the line is SUPPOSE to be, 'remember that 'cause I'll be back.' Yoda can stick to the script, why not you?"

Paramount made $$$ on a film no one really liked, saw visions of a new series and something like seven films. So they had the brains to fire everyone involved and hire people with brains. However, to convince Nimoy to come back--and you cannot do Star Trek without him--they said they would kill him off in response to his demand that "it be different."

And he was suppose to die in like the first act. And like you can see how that would have sucked. An upset Flunky leaked that which caused everyone to scramble and come up with a much better story. The whole opening was a "tease" of "You're upset we might kill Spock? What if we kill EVERYONE AND YOUR CHILDHOOD AHA!HA!HA!HA!HA!JETFUELCAN'TMELTCORBOMITE?!!!!"

Hard to plan that sort of stuff. Sometimes you get lucky. Just like "Bruce the Shark" never working made a better film and saved Richard Dreyfus' character.

--J.D.
gnome
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Re: Ask me about Star Trek, SC edition

Post by gnome »

Raising this thread from the dead in honor of the 50th anniversary.

Any new questions?
Grammatron
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Re: Ask me about Star Trek, SC edition

Post by Grammatron »

Yes.

What were the cloaking rules for USS Defiant in the Alpha quadrant and why were Sisko and crew allowed to bend them so much with only few repercussions?
sparks
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Re: Ask me about Star Trek, SC edition

Post by sparks »

Uh, because it's only a tv show? (And the worst of the entire franchise imho)
gnome
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Re: Ask me about Star Trek, SC edition

Post by gnome »

The rule was that the Defiant would only use the cloaking device in the Gamma quadrant, and in exchange they promised to share intelligence about the Dominion and keep a Romulan supervisor on board to ensure compliance -- sub-commander T'Rul.

http://vignette4.wikia.nocookie.net/mem ... -prefix=en

http://memory-alpha.wikia.com/wiki/T%27Rul

The very next episode, however, she apparently went to play basketball with Chuck Cunningham, because she never turned up again.

Early on, Sisko kept to the agreement, though it seems more and more "exceptions" were made over time. I don't necessarily give the writers this much credit for consistency, but I would say the diplomatic concerns became moot when the Federation entered a state of war with the Dominion, but the Romulans signed a non-aggression pact. Accepting intelligence from the Federation would probably be considered a violation, so in a sense the Dominion treaty superseded the amended Treaty of Algeron, and the Federation was effectively free to use the Defiant's cloak however they saw fit at that point. Later, when they became allies, the genie was already out of the bottle, so to speak, and so they probably saw that it was useless to try to enforce the agreement again.
gnome
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Re: Ask me about Star Trek, SC edition

Post by gnome »

sparks wrote:Uh, because it's only a tv show? (And the worst of the entire franchise imho)
Hush, you. We went through this earlier in the thread. :twisted:
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Re: Ask me about Star Trek, SC edition

Post by Doctor X »



--J.D.
gnome
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Re: Ask me about Star Trek, SC edition

Post by gnome »

With two different new shows going on and a handful on deck, seems like a fine time to give this one a bump. Anyone got any more questions?
Hotarubi
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Re: Ask me about Star Trek, SC edition

Post by Hotarubi »

How long before they realize left wing sentiment does not make up for it sucking?
Well, it is about the future.
Doctor X
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Re: Ask me about Star Trek, SC edition

Post by Doctor X »

Where we will spend . . . the REST . . . of OUR LIVES!

– J.D.
Anaxagoras
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Re: Ask me about Star Trek, SC edition

Post by Anaxagoras »

I have a question: How is this disguise fooling anyone?

https://www.syfy.com/sites/syfy/files/s ... ty-rag.jpg :notsure:
gnome
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Re: Ask me about Star Trek, SC edition

Post by gnome »

Anaxagoras wrote: Wed Mar 04, 2020 9:07 am I have a question: How is this disguise fooling anyone?

:notsure:
I know, she's not exactly hiding her most recognizable features.

Ok, my answer to the real question about Picard's disguise--I consider it a visual conceit for the audience, like being able to see the energy beams in space. It must be presumed that he is less recognizable to those present than his literal appearance would suggest. A fairly standard TV tradition even if it's a bit old. The Paper-Thin Disguise
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Re: Ask me about Star Trek, SC edition

Post by gnome »

Abdul Alhazred wrote: Tue Mar 03, 2020 10:30 pm How long before they realize left wing sentiment does not make up for it sucking?

Please note, TOS was heavy on the left wing sentiment and wouldn't have been as good if they had toned it down.

Left wing sentiment is absolutely not a problem at all, it is merely that it also has to not suck.
For the creators to intend the political values to make up for the suck, would require them realizing the level of suck.

Now, that said, I'm still interested in where things wind up. Discovery has taken a premise for season 3 that has a lot of potential, and Season 2 was already a good deal better than season 1. Picard's season 1 is also better than Discovery season 1, despite its flaws.

It is worth remembering that (TOS aside) the first seasons of a Trek installment are usually the weakest.
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Re: Ask me about Star Trek, SC edition

Post by Anaxagoras »

Abdul Alhazred wrote: Wed Mar 04, 2020 11:55 am CL00: Making the bug eyed monster look like Trump sucks as political commentary let alone science fiction.
Did they actually do that?
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Re: Ask me about Star Trek, SC edition

Post by gnome »

Anaxagoras wrote: Wed Mar 04, 2020 2:07 pm
Abdul Alhazred wrote: Wed Mar 04, 2020 11:55 am CL00: Making the bug eyed monster look like Trump sucks as political commentary let alone science fiction.
Did they actually do that?
If there was a bug-eyed monster in any current Trek I didn't notice.
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Re: Ask me about Star Trek, SC edition

Post by Grammatron »

I've been rewatching ST:TNG and I think what stood out for me the most is lack of any drone use or even probe use in plots. Even when sending Data would be prudent a team of living beings is sent instead.

Is there ever a reason given for aversion to the use of robots?
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Re: Ask me about Star Trek, SC edition

Post by Grammatron »

Abdul Alhazred wrote: Wed Mar 04, 2020 9:25 pm
Grammatron wrote: Wed Mar 04, 2020 8:20 pm I've been rewatching ST:TNG and I think what stood out for me the most is lack of any drone use or even probe use in plots. Even when sending Data would be prudent a team of living beings is sent instead.

Is there ever a reason given for aversion to the use of robots?
There are certain Asimov stories where the galactic empire's lack of robots is explained as the result of superstition.

In some of the later stories, this is retconned so that the robots hiding in the background pulling the strings are encouraging that superstition.

Maybe something like that, unexplained because the people of the Star Trek era simply take it for granted that the robot thing is "not done". :coolspecs:

Could be some evil empire of Star Trek's past made extensive use of robots, pretty much souring everybody on the whole robot business.

Anton Coridian's regime, or that of Donald Trump. :BigGrin3:
The Foundation series --however you want to incorporate prequels, sequels, etc.. -- has clear reasons for not using robots.

I have not perceive the same reasons in Star Trek. In fact they send probes out all the time, just less than they should. Sometimes taking the Enterprise or shuttles into incredible danger where a disposable probe would have been perfectly safe and proper to use.
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Re: Ask me about Star Trek, SC edition

Post by Hotarubi »

Grammatron wrote: Wed Mar 04, 2020 8:20 pm I've been rewatching ST:TNG and I think what stood out for me the most is lack of any drone use or even probe use in plots. Even when sending Data would be prudent a team of living beings is sent instead.

Is there ever a reason given for aversion to the use of robots?
Because they had rights. Obviously.
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Re: Ask me about Star Trek, SC edition

Post by Grammatron »

Hotarubi wrote: Wed Mar 04, 2020 10:36 pm
Grammatron wrote: Wed Mar 04, 2020 8:20 pm I've been rewatching ST:TNG and I think what stood out for me the most is lack of any drone use or even probe use in plots. Even when sending Data would be prudent a team of living beings is sent instead.

Is there ever a reason given for aversion to the use of robots?
Because they had rights. Obviously.
Considering how many times Federation scientists wanted to take Data apart, they had "rights" at best.
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Re: Ask me about Star Trek, SC edition

Post by Hotarubi »

Grammatron wrote: Wed Mar 04, 2020 10:41 pm
Hotarubi wrote: Wed Mar 04, 2020 10:36 pm
Grammatron wrote: Wed Mar 04, 2020 8:20 pm I've been rewatching ST:TNG and I think what stood out for me the most is lack of any drone use or even probe use in plots. Even when sending Data would be prudent a team of living beings is sent instead.

Is there ever a reason given for aversion to the use of robots?
Because they had rights. Obviously.
Considering how many times Federation scientists wanted to take Data apart, they had "rights" at best.
Didn't Leodegrance of Sunstone help establish those rights in the second series?
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Re: Ask me about Star Trek, SC edition

Post by Doctor X »

Cameliard! Cameliard!

– J. "For it is the Doom of Men that They Forget!" D.
Hotarubi
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Re: Ask me about Star Trek, SC edition

Post by Hotarubi »

Doctor X wrote: Thu Mar 05, 2020 1:09 am Cameliard! Cameliard!

– J. "For it is the Doom of Men that They Forget!" D.
Never did quite fathom Boorman's insistance on using Wagner and Orff in a film about an English King. Works though. Boy does it work.

But y'know. Churmans.

"It is the old wound!"
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Re: Ask me about Star Trek, SC edition

Post by Giz »

Wait, are you saying that sending an away team consisting of all the senior officers (and one yeoman) is not standard naval policy when reaching an unknown, possibly hostile shore ?
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Re: Ask me about Star Trek, SC edition

Post by gnome »

Grammatron wrote: Wed Mar 04, 2020 8:20 pm I've been rewatching ST:TNG and I think what stood out for me the most is lack of any drone use or even probe use in plots. Even when sending Data would be prudent a team of living beings is sent instead.

Is there ever a reason given for aversion to the use of robots?
Sort of. By having an episode that explicitly defined Data as being a full person legally, it would have been anathema to send Data somewhere on the presumption that his loss would be less tragic than loss of a human crew member. It does not account for times when Data would be an ideal specialist based on his abilities and they skip him--but there were plenty of episodes where his unique abilities were relied on.

As far as the use of less sophisticated robots/drones, I don't recall any in-story discussion of the matter, so the only explanation I can offer is a Doylist interpretation. The theme of the show is humanity's potential in space, so it makes sense to showcase the humans doing things. Or, if you want to be a bit more cynical, it makes for better TV to have a character do something instead of a remote drone.

The Discovery TV show finds some uses for drones, though perhaps not as extensively as might exist if the technology were available in the real world.
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Re: Ask me about Star Trek, SC edition

Post by gnome »

Grammatron wrote: Wed Mar 04, 2020 10:41 pm
Considering how many times Federation scientists wanted to take Data apart, they had "rights" at best.
... once? In the very episode where his rights were established.

I'm opening up myself to getting out geeked if there is another episode I forgot.

Interestingly (and not a spoiler), the new Picard show seems to be again taking on the question of the rights of artificial beings. Complete with Maddox references, which I appreciate. So many times a new story that's a follow up on on an older idea forgets that the crew has been through it before.

"Whoa! That thing can change shape!" ...said by people who have been impersonated by shape-changers several times in their career.
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Re: Ask me about Star Trek, SC edition

Post by Hotarubi »

gnome wrote: Thu Mar 05, 2020 12:43 pm
Grammatron wrote: Wed Mar 04, 2020 10:41 pm
Considering how many times Federation scientists wanted to take Data apart, they had "rights" at best.
... once? In the very episode where his rights were established.

I'm opening up myself to getting out geeked if there is another episode I forgot.
Cant think of one. Later though, the inference was that Lal was going to go under the knife to a research establishment for....unpleasant study.
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Re: Ask me about Star Trek, SC edition

Post by gnome »

I don't think the implication there was that disassembly was in the offering--more of a "we think she'd be better off in our custody" -- so speaking to her well-being, however misguided.
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Re: Ask me about Star Trek, SC edition

Post by Hotarubi »

gnome wrote: Thu Mar 05, 2020 1:50 pm I don't think the implication there was that disassembly was in the offering--more of a "we think she'd be better off in our custody" -- so speaking to her well-being, however misguided.
Ward of the state in "Starfleet Research."

Yeah. We know how that turns out.
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Re: Ask me about Star Trek, SC edition

Post by gnome »

Never said it was a fine idea, just that it would indeed still be illegal for them to just disassemble her or refuse her the same rights as Data.
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Re: Ask me about Star Trek, SC edition

Post by gnome »

Never said it was a fine idea, just that it would indeed still be illegal for them to just disassemble her or refuse her the same rights as Data.
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Re: Ask me about Star Trek, SC edition

Post by gnome »

That wasn't the question settled in "The Measure of a Man" -- the question was whether Data could refuse such a request, or if he was a Starfleet asset--property. It was given as a fact that the proposed procedure would put him at risk.

Lal, not even being in Starfleet--probably they have even less leeway.
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Re: Ask me about Star Trek, SC edition

Post by Hotarubi »

Seeing as very few people understood the machinations of a positronic brain, I would have little doubt that Lal's "headflap" would have been opened on the first day. I kinda got an underlying nefarious menace or "threat" to Lal from from that episode. At least that was my interpretation of it.
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Re: Ask me about Star Trek, SC edition

Post by gnome »

Hotarubi wrote: Thu Mar 05, 2020 7:00 pm Seeing as very few people understood the machinations of a positronic brain, I would have little doubt that Lal's "headflap" would have been opened on the first day. I kinda got an underlying nefarious menace or "threat" to Lal from from that episode. At least that was my interpretation of it.
I got more of a social worker "We can take care of her better than you, and study her at the same time" vibe. The threat was being separated from her "father". Not everything they would have wanted to do would involve disassembly.
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Re: Ask me about Star Trek, SC edition

Post by sparks »

Lal didn't have the appropriate chance to get properly 'Rikered'. This led directly to her neural net cascade breakdown.