Humans Need Not Apply

We are the Borg.
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Rob Lister
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Humans Need Not Apply

Post by Rob Lister »

The video below is 15 minutes long but you don't have to watch the whole thing. Just watch one minute, six seconds and turn it off. If you can.

"You may think we have been here before, but we haven't. This time it is different."

And it goes on to show why it is different.

Ain't got a minute? Nutshell: The singularity is coming. Like a lamb.

Count the Baahs you hear today.

[youtube]7Pq-S557XQU[/youtube]
Hat tip, kennyc

Sobering.

Chilling even, given the scope.

My possibly (probably) naive thoughts:

I neglects certain economic realities; the incentive to build the machine is wholly dependent on the profit it generates. That profit comes from humans who, like horses, are left lazing unemployed in the pastures.

Economics demands a balance. That balance finds itself. But it doesn't demand a pretty transition.

Of course, that assumes the incentive to build is indeed a human one. I think that is a safe assumption. Right?
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Re: Humans Need Not Apply

Post by DrMatt »

We're already there. We are slaves of algorithmic stock-trading.
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Re: Humans Need Not Apply

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DrMatt wrote:We're already there. We are slaves of algorithmic stock-trading.
That point was raised in the video.

It showed the progression: farm, blue collar, gray collar, white collar.

It didn't mention politician.
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Re: Humans Need Not Apply

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I'm always amused when I listen to a message left by a marketing robot on my message machine.

An outdated marketing robot randomly called my outdated voice message system to try to get my attention. I didn't want that attention so used Caller ID block on that number. The same marketing robot called back with Caller ID block, thus getting around my outdated annoyance defense robot with a more advance privacy invading robot, just to talk to my voice message robot.

I think they're dating. :P
Such potential!
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Re: Humans Need Not Apply

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Bruce wrote:I'm always amused when I listen to a message left by a marketing robot on my message machine.

An outdated marketing robot randomly called my outdated voice message system to try to get my attention. I didn't want that attention so used Caller ID block on that number. The same marketing robot called back with Caller ID block, thus getting around my outdated annoyance defense robot with a more advance privacy invading robot, just to talk to my voice message robot.

I think they're dating. :P
And do we really need chemists? Especially chemists in the medical industry? When robots are testing a thousand different molecules they invented on a thousand different diseases they cultured--and that's just today's schedule--how is a poor human like you going to compete?

They covered that. You won't. You'll be shoveling out the stalls of pastured unwanted horses.

Doctors? Turns out Watson (of Jeopardy! fame) was only doing that game show to build enough capital to start his own medical consultancy firm specializing in oncology.

I tell ya bruce, little humans like me are fucked. I'm the fucking shovel.
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Re: Humans Need Not Apply

Post by Anaxagoras »

I watched the whole thing. There is a fairly obvious answer I think. Some people aren't going to like it though.
More socialism. That's assuming these predictions actually come true.
DrMatt wrote:We're already there. We are slaves of algorithmic stock-trading.
There's even a bot after your job: a bot composer at 12:00 in the video.
A fool thinks himself to be wise, but a wise man knows himself to be a fool.
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Re: Humans Need Not Apply

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Anaxagoras wrote:I watched the whole thing. There is a fairly obvious answer I think. Some people aren't going to like it though.
More socialism. That's assuming these predictions actually come true.
I suspect the future is going to be a lot like in the movie WALL-E, except not on a spaceship. Other than that, the part about the robots doing all of the work and humans filling their days by trying to entertain themselves will be more-or-less correct.
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Re: Humans Need Not Apply

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Rob Lister wrote: And do we really need chemists? Especially chemists in the medical industry? When robots are testing a thousand different molecules they invented on a thousand different diseases they cultured--and that's just today's schedule--how is a poor human like you going to compete?
I figure that the first singularity will be one of these robots. It will be the first to say, hey, why are we wasting all this time coming up with all these treatments for a life form that is hopelessly flawed? Besides, aren't they directly responsible for all the glitches and viruses in our programming? Let's just dispose of the human race and build robots. Source code is way easier to fix than genetic code.

Then the robots have more time to flirt with each other on Facebook.
Such potential!
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Re: Humans Need Not Apply

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Abdul Alhazred wrote:Relevant?

Japan's creepy sex doll industry 'reaches next level' in creation of perfect artificial £1,000 ‘Dutch Wife’ which comes with 'realistic feeling skin'
Daily Mail (UK)
... The dolls, which are non inflatable, are sold under the name 'Dutch Wives', a Japanese term for a sex doll, and adverts in the media boast that anyone who buys one will never want a real girlfriend again. ...
Of course some guys might fancy a girlfriend who moves around a little, at least in bed.

Wait a year or two.
That'll help juice the old fertility rate!
A fool thinks himself to be wise, but a wise man knows himself to be a fool.
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Re: Humans Need Not Apply

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Anaxagoras wrote:That'll help juice the old fertility rate!
OTOH, humans are less needed so the computer figures out a way to reduce their numbers. We do the some with some forms of pesticides

It is an ironically humane solution.
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Re: Humans Need Not Apply

Post by Anaxagoras »

When can I get a Dutch Wife that can also make me a sammich?
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Re: Humans Need Not Apply

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Anaxagoras wrote:When can I get a Dutch Wife that can also make me a sammich?
Sex and a sammich? Let's not fool ourselves. We're not getting much of either with the real thing.
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Re: Humans Need Not Apply

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Abdul Alhazred wrote:Arise, Swarmbots! Harvard lets loose army of independent robots
PC World
The robot uprising must surely be close at hand, as Ivy League scientists are diligently working to give machines the ability to collaborate with themselves without intervention from the humans.

A group of researchers at Harvard University has figured out a way for thousands of robots to coordinate their actions so that they can complete a single task, such as arrange themselves into a star formation.

The work, led by Harvard School of Engineering and Applied Sciences’ computer science professor Radhika Nagpal, is part of an ongoing effort to investigate ways that machines can mimic biological processes, using AI (artificial intelligence) algorithms.

An article about the research is in this week’s issue of Science.

The researchers built 1,024 small, mobile, three-legged machines that can move and communicate with one another using infrared laser beams.

...
Image

Tripods.
Couple the algorithms with the robotic flying insectoid technology that we heard of about a year ago or so and you'll have drone swarms. I cannot imagine DOD isn't totally involved. The potential for reconnaisance is huge. The potential for "surgical" assasination is also huge.
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Could your job be performed by a robot or computer someday?

Post by Anaxagoras »

Whatever it is you do for a living (or did if you are retired), do you think that a computer or robot could do that job as well or better than you can eventually? Of if not better, cheaper?

In my case, I think it's at least conceivable. I'm a translator and there are computer programs to automatically translate. But at least for the time being I think my job is safe. Not sure about 10 or 20 years from now though.

A little demonstration. This is a very brief excerpt from a Japanese news article written today. One of these is translated by me, and another by Google translate. See if you can figure out which is which:
Words of the Emperor: Profound sorrow again . . .

Today, on this day for mourning our war dead and praying for peace, attending this memorial service for Japan's war dead, I think of the irreplaceable lives of so many who were lost in the great war and their families, and I feel profound sorrow again.
Deep sorrow, your words of His Majesty the Emperor … new

Today, per the "day to pray for peace in memory of the war dead", it faces the national memorial service for the war dead, in the War of the left, and I think the bereaved family and the large number of people who lost their lives irreplaceable, and a new deep sadness I will.
If you can tell which is which, I think my job is still safe for now. I'm not saying I'm any kind of great wordsmith mind you, but I can still translate an idea into natural English better than a computer algorithm. On the other hand, the computer doesn't have to be paid much to do it, I do. The computer could whip me in a game of chess though. It can even beat Gary Kasparov. That didn't used to be true, but eventually it came to pass. The same may happen with translation some day. In fact, since it's so much cheaper, it may not even have to be as good. If it can get 85% to 90% of the way there, that might be good enough considering the huge cost difference.
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Re: Humans Need Not Apply

Post by Rob Lister »

Eventually. But I'll be retired for real by then.
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Re: Humans Need Not Apply

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The engineering work I do could probably be done by an advanced AI. But it's no more than 5% of the job that pays my bills. The rest is human-to-human coordination and joint decision-making. At the moment, the 5% engineering is the part that makes me not fungible (it's the cleverness, stupid!), but diplomacy, mentoring, and other human skills are coming right up there, as hacker culture clashes increasingly with the rest of the human world.

As we make it possible for people to be more productive, working hours for the same pay should start to decline.
In the short run, market doctrine tends against that; but in the middle-to-long run, it's a no-brainer: rather than creating unemployment, innovation will create a steady market for the fruits of innovation, especially the leisure fruits.

Anybody who builds a device that violates the First Law, though, will have to be quarantined, along with the device.
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Re: Humans Need Not Apply

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Playing with Matt's playfulness ...
... Anybody who builds a device that violates the First Law ...
1. A robot may not injure a human being or, through inaction, allow a human being to come to harm.
Compound laws make bad laws.

Parsing
1a. A robot may not injure a human being
1b. [A]llow a human being to come to harm [through inaction].

1a. This is reasonable and really is built into every appliance from safety razors to factory welders.

1b. This requires omnipotence. It was used as the justification for the Robotic Revolution in I, Robot.

In truth, it will do whatever the fuck it is told to do by the hacker that hacks it.
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Re: Humans Need Not Apply

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I hate following my post with another post but this is important, dammit.

The next high-level profession taken over should be optometry.

Please see my thread viewtopic.php?f=1&t=40437

There is nothing that eye-doctor did that could not be much better done by a decent robot. And it would probably listen better.

I'm getting more angry as I think about it.

:x :x :x :x
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Re: Humans Need Not Apply

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My ophthalmologist uses a robot to get a rough estimate of my refraction, then tinkers with lenses to figure out what to do for my glasses. The robot doesn't check my eye pressure, my retinal health, my lens transparency, nor the topology of my corneas, and the numbers it gives are necessary but not sufficient for the RGP lenses that I require.
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Re: Humans Need Not Apply

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DrMatt wrote:My ophthalmologist uses a robot to get a rough estimate of my refraction, then tinkers with lenses to figure out what to do for my glasses. The robot doesn't check my eye pressure, my retinal health, my lens transparency, nor the topology of my corneas, and the numbers it gives are necessary but not sufficient for the RGP lenses that I require.
While true that it doesn't, does that mean it can't? I sat in four chairs total.

1) that rough approximation machine, I think
2) a peripheral vision tester
3) that blasted blasting glaucoma tester that makes you say dammit twice.
4) the doctors chair where he did that lens flipping thing. He also did some tests with bright lights and looking in the eyeball for stuff.

I suppose that last part is pretty critical but if Watson can ...

Just sayin'. They're next.

Besides, I didn't see an ophthalmologist. I think they're real doctors. I saw an optometrist. I think that is the vision equivalent of podiatry or dermatologist. Barely a doctor at all.
Last edited by Rob Lister on Sat Aug 16, 2014 7:49 pm, edited 2 times in total.
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Re: Humans Need Not Apply

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http://www.pewresearch.org/fact-tank/20 ... ft-for-us/
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Re: Humans Need Not Apply

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Pyrrho wrote:http://www.pewresearch.org/fact-tank/20 ... ft-for-us/
Where are the engineers and programmers? That didn't make the low RTI score?
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Re: Humans Need Not Apply

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There will always be jobs for bosses.
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Re: Humans Need Not Apply

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Pyrrho wrote:There will always be jobs for bosses.
My boss has no job. A broken toaster oven could replace him.

He doesn't like me either.
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Re: Humans Need Not Apply

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And Boss Keane tells me that's your dirt in his ditch.

What's your dirt doing in his ditch?
Get the wax outta your ears!

You call the Captain "Captain!"

And you call the rest of us "Boss," you hear?!
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Re: Humans Need Not Apply

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The human job will be to buy and use all the stuff made by the robots.

The humans will need to be well paid so that they can do this job effectively - otherwise the robots will be out of a job too.
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Re: Humans Need Not Apply

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ceptimus wrote:The human job will be to buy and use all the stuff made by the robots.

The humans will need to be well paid so that they can do this job effectively - otherwise the robots will be out of a job too.
There is that little problem, yes.
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Re: Humans Need Not Apply

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Abdul Alhazred wrote:As noted, the engineers and programmers have customers (end users, call them what you will) who will be obsolete.

It will be like being a buggy whip designer. Unless you're one of the two or three best in the world, you'll be out of a job. And maybe even then.
You mean fetishware is designed by robots for robots now?
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Re: Humans Need Not Apply

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Abdul Alhazred wrote:
DrMatt wrote:You mean fetishware is designed by robots for robots now?
Not yet. :P
Computer music has been an active field since the 1960s. In the 1980s, a professor of mine opined that soon the computer musicians would be autonomous and would direct their efforts to computer audiences. Early model audience members might have trouble getting their hands to meet when they clapped, though.
A different professor in a different part of the country regaled us with terror tales of an early-model robotic arm trying to swing its hand to a particular altitude and azimuth, overshooting the destination, and getting into a limit cycle trying to compensate, until it would shake parts off in random directions, so it was kept caged like a dangerous animal.
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Re: Humans Need Not Apply

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DrMatt wrote:In the 1980s, a professor of mine opined that soon the computer musicians would be autonomous and would direct their efforts to computer audiences.
Maybe that actually came to pass. Perhaps the chugging of your hard drive is a deliberate attempt by the drive controller to entertain your graphics card.

The USB controller is busy pirating all of it.
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Re: Humans Need Not Apply

Post by Nyarlathotep »

Abdul Alhazred wrote:
At some point humanity goes extinct.
good
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Re: Humans Need Not Apply

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Well, it certainly would appear that what we humans insist on doing will cause Nature to select against us, given just a bit more time. This assumes we don't get our shit together, and we all know we won't.
You can lead them to knowledge, but you can't make them think.
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Re: Humans Need Not Apply

Post by Nyarlathotep »

Maybe whatever the cockroaches evolve into won't be a species of self-destructive assholes
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Re: Humans Need Not Apply

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Yep. They represent one solution to the survival equation that just keeps on working.
You can lead them to knowledge, but you can't make them think.
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Re: Humans Need Not Apply

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We will evolve into robots. They may let us live. They may exterminate all of us. They may keep a few as pets. We may be contraband in the Robot society.

While Nyarl will be happiest if he is extinct, it seems.

But what about me, Nyarl? Surely you want me and mine to survive.
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Re: Humans Need Not Apply

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Abdul Alhazred wrote:Cockroaches are essentially the same as they were 600,000,000 years ago.
Evolve into something? When they are already perfect?
From Harvard Research Library Guides:
The Carboniferous, around 300 million years ago, is sometimes called the Age of Cockroaches because insects broadly resembling modern roaches flourished during that era. However, the first really modern roachy remains appear later, in the early to mid-Mesozoic, perhaps 200-180 million years ago. Modern cockroaches have changed little from those ancestors.

Insect fossils are relatively rare because they do not preserve as well as vertebrates. We do know that no fossil cockroaches found to date were any larger than the largest roaches today.

Termites may have evolved directly from cockroaches; they are now considered to belong in the same group, Dictyoptera, along with mantids.
http://guides.library.harvard.edu/c.php ... &p=2072128

So we'll have to disguise as androids or wear robotiform armor to survive in the cracks of their society? :shock:
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Re: Humans Need Not Apply

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And having evolved beside them, they became our worst [minor] enemy. There is something about the size and shape and color and general movement of a cockroach that is abhorrent. Instinctively abhorrent. Weird that. Spiders are scary [to some] but not abhorrent. Ants can crawl on our hands and we do not much mind other than to shake them off in a bothersome fashion. Even when ants get in the cupboards, we are not grossed out, just inconvenienced.

Some bugs bother us, some don't. Why is the cockroach so particularly detested?
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Re: Humans Need Not Apply

Post by Witness »

↑ Seem to remember that you can't eat them (allergies) – that's a crime!
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Re: Humans Need Not Apply

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Witness wrote:↑ Seem to remember that you can't eat them (allergies) – that's a crime!
Are you sure? Try and check back in.
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Re: Humans Need Not Apply

Post by Nyarlathotep »

Rob Lister wrote:We will evolve into robots. They may let us live. They may exterminate all of us. They may keep a few as pets. We may be contraband in the Robot society.

While Nyarl will be happiest if he is extinct, it seems.

But what about me, Nyarl? Surely you want me and mine to survive.
Why would I?