Tesla worth more than GM or Ford now

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Tesla worth more than GM or Ford now

Post by Anaxagoras »

Gotta wonder if this isn't a case of people counting a whole lot of chickens that haven't hatched yet. Sure, Tesla is much cooler than those old companies, but they still make and sell a lot more cars than Tesla does.

G.M. Takes a Back Seat to Tesla as America’s Most Valued Carmaker
DETROIT — By almost every measure, General Motors has been on a roll.

Its bellwether pickups and sport utility vehicles have hit the sweet spot in a record-setting American market for two years. The company is steadily increasing profits and revenue. And President Trump has vowed to ease regulations and put cars at the forefront of his crusade to add manufacturing jobs.

In short, G.M. has come a long way from a near-death experience eight years ago, when it filed for bankruptcy and needed a $49 billion government bailout. But apparently investors have yet to be convinced that G.M., the nation’s largest automaker, has put its troubled past behind it.

In a sign of how the industry’s future is being reimagined, the electric-car maker Tesla passed G.M. on Monday as America’s most valuable auto company.

With its stock gaining more than 3 percent for the day to $312.39, Tesla has a market capitalization of $50.9 billion, just a hair ahead of G.M.’s.

While the rise of Tesla is based on prospects rather than profits, G.M. is being dogged by its checkered history, and a perception on Wall Street that its days as a dominant force are over.

G.M. is working hard to establish its own bona fides in automotive innovation, developing home-grown technology, acquiring or investing in Silicon Valley companies with promising approaches to self-driving or ride-hailing systems, and bringing a new electric car, the Chevrolet Bolt, to market.

“We are spending money on the future, whether it is in mobility, autonomous vehicles, artificial intelligence or electrification,” said Mark L. Reuss, G.M.’s executive vice president for product development.

Yet the moves have so far failed to impress investors. The company’s shares are about 13 percent lower than they were when Mary T. Barra became chief executive in early 2014. And now an activist shareholder, the hedge fund Greenlight Capital, is pushing for a financial restructuring to unlock more of the company’s value.

G.M. is hardly alone in being outshone by Tesla among investors. A week earlier, another century-old Detroit icon, Ford Motor, fell behind Tesla in market value. And Fiat Chrysler, the parent of the third Detroit automaker, is so uncertain of its own future that it is actively seeking a merger partner.

But G.M. epitomizes both the frustration attached to the old American auto industry, and the determination to prove the skeptics wrong over the long term.

A G.M. spokesman played down the company’s loss of its title as the most valuable American automaker. “We have a track record of strong financial performance, with a great outlook for 2017,” the spokesman, Tom Henderson, said on Monday. “We’ll stay focused on delivering outstanding results, generating strong cash flows and investing capital where it will drive the highest returns.”
Let's see, last year Tesla produced about 83,000 vehicles and delivered 76,000.

I guess if they were able to produce more, they could have sold a lot more and investors are thinking ahead. The only bottleneck right now seems to be how fast can they ramp up production. The demand is there. Meanwhile GM sold over 10 million worldwide. So over 100 times more than Tesla. Operating profit was $12.5 billion for GM. Tesla meanwhile has yet to actually make a profit and is not forecast to make a profit this year either. Still, based on past experience I expect Tesla's share price will probably continue to grow.
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Re: Tesla worth more than GM or Ford now

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You still fantasize about owning a car with will immediately become ワイフ様か娘さんの車.

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Re: Tesla worth more than GM or Ford now

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All I know is that as much as I want a Tesla I need a GM [or other pragmatic brand]. We just bought a new Honda CRV about two months ago. We were looking at the Hybrid Accord but I couldn't justify the extra cost and risk. I keep cars until they die and I still don't trust the battery technology enough to invest in it. Next decade for sure.

I also wanted the CVT model but as cool as CVT is, I don't trust that yet either.
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Re: Tesla worth more than GM or Ford now

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Rob Lister wrote:All I know is that as much as I want a Tesla I need a GM [or other pragmatic brand]. We just bought a new Honda CRV about two months ago. We were looking at the Hybrid Accord but I couldn't justify the extra cost and risk. I keep cars until they die and I still don't trust the battery technology enough to invest in it. Next decade for sure.

I also wanted the CVT model but as cool as CVT is, I don't trust that yet either.
Nothing says car is a nuisance that I have to endure like getting CVT.
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Re: Tesla worth more than GM or Ford now

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Tesla starts delivering Model 3. 30 units delivered so far. Btw, I checked the stock price and it is still valued more than either GM or Ford at current share prices. Tesla is worth $55 billion, GM $52 billion and Ford $44 billion.

https://qz.com/1041862/tesla-model-3-re ... necessary/

The early word from reviewers looks promising for Tesla. Their verdict: the Model 3 is not only impressive by electric vehicle standards, it’s a spectacular car by any measure. Any qualms tend to focus on a slight learning curve for dashboard controls, limited fast-charging infrastructure, and the cost for some of the premium features. No doubt issues will arise, but this is Tesla’s honeymoon.

Quartz rounded up the (sometimes breathless) highlights from the major reviewers about the new car.
It’s best in class (and maybe just the best)

The Model 3 feels like an automotive tipping point, writes Wired’s Jack Stewart. Tesla’s debut could mark the point at which almost anyone—not just Tesla fans and the environmentally conscious—could see themselves driving an electric vehicle.

The standard $35,000 Model 3 (before tax incentives) has a 220-mile range, five-seats, and can hit 131 miles per hour for a price equivalent to the median US car price. The more powerful $44,000 long-range version can travel 310 miles on a single charge. At that price, Engadget’s Andrew Tarantola writes, “the Model 3 really feels like the car that will bring electric vehicles as a whole into the mainstream.”

Motor Trend showered the Model 3 with superlative praise. “The Tesla Model 3 is […] the most important vehicle of the century,” the magazine writes. “Yes, the hyperbole is necessary,” it continues, likening the Alfa Romeo Giulia X’s performance to a “wet sponge” compared to the Model 3.

Business Insider also did not hold back. “I’ve driven pretty much every other all-electric car you can buy, and I can safely say that the Model 3 has no competition,” wrote Matthew Debord. “There isn’t anybody who’s going to sit in the driver’s seat of this car and not want it, if only briefly. The Model 3 stokes immediate desire, and the lust lingers.”
Fast, nimble, and wow

“The car sprints like an Olympic 100-meter champion,” raves USA Today. The $35,000 standard version hits 60 mph in 5.6 seconds with a top speed of 130mph (the upgraded version is slightly faster). The Model 3 has a smaller battery pack so it can’t perform the same theatrics as its premium cousins (an extra fast “Ludicrous” mode).

But that didn’t seem to faze reviewers. High-torque electric propulsion means the Model 3 still has a significant acceleration advantage over internal combustion engines. Tesla’s engineers also apparently took advantage of the car’s low center of gravity (the battery pack fits neatly under the chassis) to give it crisp handling. “The Model 3 is so unexpected[ly] scalpel-like, I’m sputtering for adjectives,” sputters Motor Trend.
Autopilot is awesome

The Model 3 comes with the same eight cameras, radar, ultrasonics, and plenty of computing power that the premium Model X and S offer. Although it costs more to activate Autopilot and advanced self-driving features, the car already has the ability to take over highway driving and other chores for drivers.

Testing the semi-autonomous Autopilot, TopGear’s Charlie Turner called it “a system that still feels like witchcraft.” In what is likely to become a standard feature in many cars, the gear shifter has an extra setting: Park, Reverse, Neutral, Drive— and Autopilot.
So much interior

Tesla says it designed the interior of the car for the day when cars will drive themselves, and there’s no need for myriads buttons and displays. Appropriately, the Model 3 exterior feels “like a cockpit from the future,” says Mashable. The challenge was to provide expansive interior space, even as it shrunk the car compared to the Model S. “Subjectively it succeeded,” judges Motor Trend.

Tesla replaced the typical automotive dashboard with a “stylish, Scandinavian” touchscreen console, a horizontal 15-inch display that gives drivers all the information they need. Few buttons exist besides some thumb controls on the steering wheel. Multiple storage areas are tucked into the front of the car, as well as two smartphone charging docks. The individual vents for hot or cold air are replaced by thin openings in the dash blowing air into the cabin, and controlled by touching the screen and swiping where more AC or heat is desired.
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Re: Tesla worth more than GM or Ford now

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Your Mom! [Stop it!--Ed.]

Right.
Spoiler:
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Re: Tesla worth more than GM or Ford now

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Image
Image

They like this look? The screen looks like it was tacked on as an afterthought. No sir, I do not like it. But I suppose I would take one if offered.
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Re: Tesla worth more than GM or Ford now

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Tangentially related

https://ca.news.yahoo.com/woman-apos-po ... 00904.html

Short long of it: Lady buys an electric car [in Canada] and plugs it into the outlet meant for a block heater at her assigned condo parking space. Two weeks later the power to said outlet is cut. The condo board sent her a letter saying she can't do that for reasons I'm sure most of you can figure out.

Lesson: the transition to electric cars is slow and that is a good thing. While the technology is [pretty much] there, the infrastructure still has a ways to go.
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Re: Tesla worth more than GM or Ford now

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Rob Lister wrote:The screen looks like it was tacked on as an afterthought.
It's designed to be easily upgraded to a 72 inch screen if desired.

And for those who miss the drive-in movie experience, you can also get that in 4K.
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Re: Tesla worth more than GM or Ford now

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72 inches in a car? ;)
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Re: Tesla worth more than GM or Ford now

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If I owned any Tesla stock, I think I'd sell it.

Maybe this is just growing pains, but:

A very bad September for Tesla's Model 3 as production falls far short
In July, Tesla Chief Executive Elon Musk warned that “production hell” was ahead for Tesla’s new and long-anticipated Model 3.

He wasn’t kidding. On Monday, the company said it had only produced 260 Model 3 cars from the start of production in late July through September 30, far short of the 1,500 the company had forecast.

That’s bad news for Tesla. The success or failure of the Model 3 could make or break the company.

The car is billed as a more affordable alternative to Tesla’s luxury Model S and Model X. The company had planned to be churning out 20,000 of them a month by December, and 500,000 a year by the end of 2018.

In a note to investors Monday, Tesla blamed “production bottlenecks” but offered no details.

“It is important to emphasize that there are no fundamental issues with the Model 3 production or supply chain,” the company said. “We understand what needs to be fixed and we are confident of addressing the manufacturing bottleneck issues in the near-term.”

The company did not say whether its December or 2018 production forecasts remain on track.

The Model 3 production numbers were included in an investor message, posted online, that touted “our all time best quarter for Model S and X deliveries.” Tesla delivered 25,930 of those cars, up 4.5% over the same quarter last year.

Tesla critics saw little to crow about. Sales of the Model S and Model X have remained in the low to mid-20,000s for the last four quarters, sowing doubts about whether sales growth for those cars is nearly tapped out.

"The most shocking thing about this report isn't even the low Model 3 production number,” said Mark Spiegel of Stanphyl Capital. “It's that Model S and X sales were only up 4.5% year-over-year despite massive discounting and before all the luxury EV competition arrives next year from Jaguar and Audi and in 2019 from Mercedes and Porsche. This is supposed to be a hypergrowth company.”

Although sales are tiny compared with the major auto companies and Tesla has spent billions in cash without profit, its stock price has exceeded that of Ford and General Motors.

In the last three weeks, however, Tesla’s stock is down around 10%. It closed up 43 cents Monday to $341.53 but fell in after-hours trading.
Yeah the stock market still says this company is worth more than GM or Ford, but that is counting a lot of eggs that haven't hatched yet. The demand is there (for now) but they have to produce the cars to meet the demand.
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Re: Tesla worth more than GM or Ford now

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Grammatron wrote:
Rob Lister wrote:All I know is that as much as I want a Tesla I need a GM [or other pragmatic brand]. We just bought a new Honda CRV about two months ago. We were looking at the Hybrid Accord but I couldn't justify the extra cost and risk. I keep cars until they die and I still don't trust the battery technology enough to invest in it. Next decade for sure.

I also wanted the CVT model but as cool as CVT is, I don't trust that yet either.
Nothing says car is a nuisance that I have to endure like getting CVT.
Maybe necro-responding a little.

On the batteries--I think you can consider it a given that you will need to replace the expensive battery in a hybrid at least once during its lifetime, depending on when you consider it "dead". That should definitely factor into your spending decisions. In my 2004 Honda it lasted about 7 years. After replacing it, I would have kept it much longer but it wound up totaled. My 2012 isn't that old yet, so no further experience to report yet.

I do wonder what all the CVT hate is about. What kind of nuisances do you endure?
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Re: Tesla worth more than GM or Ford now

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CVT is a beautiful technology that is not ready for prime time. The belt does well for the first 20K-50k miles or so and then slips, breaks, goes off-kilter. They are getting better but the weight reduction and efficiency but do not yet reach cost effectiveness. It needs to last at least 100k miles. non-linear transmissions typically last 200-300k miles. They will get there. I'm bullish. So will batteries.
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Re: Tesla worth more than GM or Ford now

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I've had mine for longer than 100K, is there something I should be looking for? Not challenging your point, in fact I'm wondering if I'm running with something off in my transmission by now.
"If fighting is sure to result in victory, then you must fight! Sun Tzu said that, and I'd say he knows a little bit more about fighting than you do, pal, because he invented it, and then he perfected it so that no living man could best him in the ring of honor. Then, he used his fight money to buy two of every animal on earth, and then he herded them onto a boat, and then he beat the crap out of every single one. And from that day forward any time a bunch of animals are together in one place it's called a zoo! (Beat) Unless it's a farm!"
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Re: Tesla worth more than GM or Ford now

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gnome wrote:I've had mine for longer than 100K, is there something I should be looking for? Not challenging your point, in fact I'm wondering if I'm running with something off in my transmission by now.
Nay, if it is working for you, good.
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Re: Tesla worth more than GM or Ford now

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Tesla announces another delay -- this time its the semi-truck
Tesla fans won't get to see the company's electric semi-truck until mid-November, Elon Musk tweeted on Friday.

The event had been planned for Oct. 26 in California, but now Musk says it will take place on November 16. The reason: Tesla says it's "diverting resources" to fix problems with the production of it Model 3 sedan and to manufacture more batteries that it can send to areas affected by recent hurricanes.

Tesla (TSLA) announced earlier this week that that it's far behind on its planned production of the Model 3, its new, more affordable, electric car. During the first quarter, Tesla produced only 260 of the cars, far fewer than the 1,500 it planned to make.
Elon Musk: Big dreamer or monorail salesman? (CNN)

I guess it's admirable that they want to manufacture batteries for the areas affected by recent hurricanes, but I wonder if it's putting their production schedule even further behind the 8-ball. Paying customers have put down deposits to buy these things.

He has both good ideas, but also some far-fetched ones. The hyperloop is a technological pipe dream as far as I can tell. Like a space elevator. Neat idea in theory, but too difficult to realize in practice.
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Re: Tesla worth more than GM or Ford now

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Tesla is still having production problems:

http://www.businessinsider.com/tesla-mo ... job-2018-1
"Production hell," as Elon Musk calls it, has reached a new level of blazing discomfort at Tesla. Last week, the company reported that it had fallen well short of its delivery goals for the Model 3, the $35,000 car that's supposed to transform Tesla from a niche player to the dominant force in the new age of electrified automobiles.

Tesla also pushed back its production plans for the Model 3 by a full quarter — a 5,000-unit weekly run-rate now won't arrive until the end of the second quarter of 2018.
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Re: Tesla worth more than GM or Ford now

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Looks like reality may finally be catching up. At least Tesla is no longer worth more than GM. And its credit rating rating has been downgraded.

Tesla shares fall after Moody's downgrades credit rating
Moody's lowered its corporate family rating on Tesla to B3 from B2 and changed the outlook to negative from stable.
"Tesla's ratings reflect the significant shortfall in the production rate of the company's Model 3 electric vehicle," Moody's said in a release.
The price on Tesla's eight-year junk bond, which matures in 2025, fell to its lowest since it was issued in August. It hit 90.8 cents late Tuesday afternoon just ahead of the Moody's announcement, according to IHS Markit.
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Re: Tesla worth more than GM or Ford now

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I wonder if Musk has too many big ideas for his own good.

Tesla missed its Model 3 production target...but investors are still relieved

Investors are dumb to be relieved. They are fudging the numbers.
From the article:
Tesla: First quarter production up 40% from Q4
Tesla: First quarter production up 40% from Q4
18 Hours Ago | 03:44

Tesla missed its quarterly target for producing its hot Model 3 cars, but investors still breathed a sigh of relief Tuesday that the numbers weren't more disappointing. During the last week of the quarter, the electric-car maker produced 2,020 Model 3s, coming up short of its goal to produce 2,500 Model 3 sedans a week.
So they say they made 2,020 Model 3s in the final week of the quarter. So how many did they make for the whole quarter? 8,180. There's 13 weeks in a quarter so they averaged 630 per week. I think they must have held back some of the production from previous weeks so that they could get over 2000 in that final week.

For Tesla, ‘Production Hell’ Looks Like the Reality of the Car Business
Mr. Musk once envisioned producing as many as 500,000 cars this year, and last summer he was hoping to be able to make 20,000 Model 3s a month by December. More recently, Tesla had aimed to produce at least 2,500 Model 3s per week by the end of the first quarter.

But that is more than it managed in the entire fourth quarter, and it has produced fewer than 10,000 in the first quarter, the company said Tuesday.

There have been signs of momentum, however. In the past seven days, Tesla said, it had produced 2,020 Model 3s, a rate it said it expected to sustain in the coming week.

In a filing with the Securities and Exchange Commission, Tesla said it expected its output to “climb rapidly” through the second quarter and reach 5,000 per week in about three months. It added that it was “rapidly addressing production and supply-chain bottlenecks, including several short factory shutdowns to upgrade equipment.”

Tesla has closely guarded the details of its manufacturing system, but Mr. Musk has described it as highly automated.
Anyway, the share price did rise over 5% on the news, even though it is dubious. If they are truly producing over 2000 per week now, then at a minimum they should produce about 26,000 in Q2, but more than that if they want to reach their goal of 5000 per week by the end of the quarter.
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Re: Tesla worth more than GM or Ford now

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Tesla halts Model 3 production for a second time

As I said before, I was skeptical that they really produced 2000 vehicles in the final week of the quarter. Now they are spinning this latest halt as something completely normal and expected, but I don't put much stock in their explanations because they have every incentive to fudge the truth if things are going badly.
Tesla Inc. confirmed Monday afternoon that it has halted production of its new Model 3 electric car for a second time.

“Our Model 3 production plan includes periods of planned downtime in both Fremont and Gigafactory 1,” a Tesla spokesman said, in repeating the company’s statement from a weeklong shutdown in February. “These periods are used to improve automation and systematically address bottlenecks in order to increase production rates. This is not unusual and is in fact common in production ramps like this.”

Tesla TSLA, -3.04% credited the first pause in production of the new car at its Fremont, Calif., plant with helping to ramp up production, which is behind the schedule Chief Executive Elon Musk laid out for the car last year. Some analysts posited that the delay allowed the company to build up its supply of batteries from the Gigafactory, Tesla’s battery factory in Reno, Nev., which is also trying to ramp up production to meet ambitious schedules.
If we are to believe them, we would have to believe that about one quarter of their entire quarter's production came in the final week. To put it another way, it would mean they averaged a rate of 500/week for the first 12 weeks of the quarter and then 2000 in the final week.
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Re: Tesla worth more than GM or Ford now

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Musk tweeted he was wrong about using robots. Wants to hire hoomans to build cars
still working on Sophrosyne, but I will no doubt end up with Hubris
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Re: Tesla worth more than GM or Ford now

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robinson wrote:Musk tweeted he was wrong about using robots. Wants to hire hoomans to build cars
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Re: Tesla worth more than GM or Ford now

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Abdul Alhazred wrote:He really wants robots, but bowed to political pressure.

Because he might lose his position as the world's wealthiest welfare recipient.
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Re: Tesla worth more than GM or Ford now

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Tesla Did It, With A Ton Of Caveats

They may be cutting corners. But, they did up the volume by 55% over the previous quarter. Some of these cars are now being built in a tent, so there are questions about whether the quality is the same.
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Re: Tesla worth more than GM or Ford now

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For sure, you're going to get your aerobic workout walking to work. I note (again) that the unbuilt part of the gigafactory is devoted to parking, and it's full. Even so, it's a long fucking walk to work. Once it's finished, it will be a much longer walk.

When stationed at navy shipyards, I became somewhat used to this but I never liked it. Some folks used bicycles but you had to heft them over two elevated walkways.
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Re: Tesla worth more than GM or Ford now

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For those who like numbers, here's a cross country trip in a tesla

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Re: Tesla worth more than GM or Ford now

Post by Anaxagoras »

Abdul Alhazred wrote: Thu Oct 24, 2019 12:42 pm Analysis: They couldn't have done it without massive government interference.
See, skeptics of government??

Thanks, government!!!!

Whoever said the government couldn't innovate??
A fool thinks himself to be wise, but a wise man knows himself to be a fool.
William Shakespeare
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Witness
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Re: Tesla worth more than GM or Ford now

Post by Witness »

After fiery Tesla crash, a closer look at how door locks work in emergencies

Model S driver died; how other automakers do latches, and the unusual Model 3 setup

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Car accidents unfold in stages, and at every stage it's important for the safety systems to work in concert, properly, to protect the occupants. When a critical safety device fails, the entire system falls apart — and people get hurt, or die. Take for example the high-speed crash involving a 2016 Tesla Model S this past Sunday. The driver of the electric car was reportedly speeding through traffic before he lost control and crashed into a tree. The Tesla burst into flames, and neither he nor emergency responders were able to open the door.

We can't yet know exactly what happened in this specific case, but it could have been a couple different things. The driver could have been incapacitated. Or, post-crash, the door mechanism might not have operated as it should have due to damage. On a Tesla Model S, both the interior and exterior door mechanisms are unusual.

The interior mechanism is essentially a traditional-style door release pull with two stops. The first stop triggers an electronic door release, and opens the door. Open to full extension, and a mechanical door release operates, even if there's a loss of power — it isn't confusing to operate.

The second thing to go wrong was access from outside. The way Tesla puts it, this should have been easy. An emergency response guide for this car states that, "When an airbag inflates, Model S unlocks all doors, the trunk, and extends all door handles." The problem here? Those door handles didn't extend, so there was no way for anybody to open the supposedly unlocked doors in the time the driver had left. Tesla uses a nifty flush fitment for its exterior door handles on the Model S that pop out to welcome you as you walk up to the car with the key. If there isn't any power to the car, those are not going to pop out.

The last-ditch effort is for a first responder to reach inside the car and use the interior door handle. A police officer on the scene reportedly tried to do exactly that, but was unable to break the glass before the fire became too intense. Witnesses said the flames quickly engulfed the car, leaving scant time for a fire crew to attempt a rescue.
https://www.autoblog.com/2019/02/28/tes ... oor-locks/
solely
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Re: Tesla worth more than GM or Ford now

Post by solely »

I didn't click the link, how did the fire start? Or why did a fire start?