Leaving Neverland

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Anaxagoras
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Leaving Neverland

Post by Anaxagoras » Mon Mar 04, 2019 3:32 am

There's a new HBO documentary about the sexual abuse allegations against Michael Jackson. I haven't seen it, but I'm reading stories about it. It's pretty damning, but not just for Jackson himself.

What Kind of Mother
As Dan Reed’s HBO documentary, Leaving Neverland, caused me to revisit the allegations against Michael Jackson as they were covered at the time, I was unnerved, most of all, by the mothers. There was a signal lack of fellow feeling among the families who came forward alleging abuse; the Michael Jackson machine (which included staff, handlers, lawyers, as well as the singer himself) seems to have excelled at making not just the children but their parents see each other as rivals for the King of Pop’s (fickle, inconstant) favor. Many a family seems to have accordingly relaxed the ordinary standard of parental vigilance in order to give their kids a competitive edge: He wanted access, and granting it improved their children’s chances at becoming Jackson’s favorite.

One result, years later, has been a lack of common cause in their common trauma. The rivalry appears to have been most acute among the mothers, some of whom have a history of testifying against each other, and two of whom will come under fresh scrutiny because of their participation in the documentary. For Joy Robson and Stephanie Safechuck, mothers of alleged victims Wade and James, this appearance serves as a kind of act of atonement, a bid for forgiveness, and—thanks to a poor choice Reed made in structuring his documentary—a further complication of this already complicated case.

Both these mothers have a history of testifying for Jackson and against other families who made allegations similar to the ones their own sons are making now. Of one mother, Joy Robson said, “I thought she wanted to be mistress of Neverland, and that she was trying to use Michael. I thought she was a gold digger.”

That testimony cost Joy something: On the stand, she admitted that she considered Jackson family, that he’d loaned her money, that he’d bought her a car, and that he’d helped her emigrate from Australia. “The suggestion [by the prosecution] is that there was some sort of quid pro quo,” Slate’s Seth Stevenson wrote then. “Or, more bluntly: She was pimping out her son.” Joy admitted—while insisting that this was all normal and fine—that Jackson sometimes called her in the middle of the night asking her to bring her small son to him. Little Wade Robson once arrived at Neverland at 1:30 a.m. and went straight to bed with Jackson.

That was a tricky tightrope to walk—attacking some mothers for being gold diggers while benefiting financially from the association with Jackson—but Joy Robson risked it, and so, in her way, did Stephanie Safechuck. What those trials revealed, perhaps unintentionally, was how difficult it would be to hold Jackson accountable in an environment where, to quote Stevenson again, “moms jockey for status at Neverland” by creatively managing their assets—typically, their sons.

That’s exactly the kind of grim and exploitative dynamic a documentary like Leaving Neverland—which covers the alleged abuse of two Jackson protégés, Wade Robson and James Safechuck—has to handle with extraordinary care. To exonerate these mothers from criminal pandering requires clarifying the extent to which the star groomed them as well, and so, unenviably, Joy Robson and Stephanie Safechuck are charged with persuading us of their own negligence and stupidity. It’s an unpleasant position, and it feels like even appearing in the documentary amounts to an act of atonement for each mother: “I fucked up. I failed to protect him,” Stephanie says at one point. The sons agree: “Every night that I was with him, there was abuse while my mother was—you know—next door,” Wade Robson says. The shattering lack of solidarity wasn’t limited to family units jockeying for social position, in other words; the rifts include deep resentments between the children and their parents.

I’ll be blunt: The mothers are in a fragile position in this documentary. And to me, the most incomprehensible aspect of Leaving Neverland is the starry-eyed wonder with which the mothers of the two alleged victims describe their early experiences with the star. In the first half of the documentary, their faces shine as they talk about what Jackson did for their children and for them: the letters, the faxes, the phone calls, the hotel suites, the rented cars, the splendor of Neverland. “I remember getting this glow that sort of started in my heart and went to all my extremities,” Joy says. “It was an amazing feeling, when something magical was going to happen.” Stephanie describes Jackson’s friendship with her son as the answer to a prayer. The mothers seem giddy, too, when they talk about what Jackson apparently needed from them: a sense of belonging, of home, of family. It’s said that the way to earn a person’s favor is to get them to do you one; Jackson may have been a master of this technique, acting like he desperately needed mothering while psychologically isolating his victims from their moms. Still, the cynic in me wondered how these women were able to conjure such pure, uncomplicatedly positive memories of a man who destroyed their sons’ childhoods. How could their nostalgia for those early years with Jackson still seem somehow untainted?
So these mothers were star-struck, and giddy that a superstar celebrity like Jackson would lavish so much attention and gifts on them, and they were jealous of each other, seeing their "rivals" as "gold-diggers". The price for all this was access to their children. He managed to survive two major sexual abuse scandals without getting convicted (in the first case, it never even went to trial). The mother in that case contradicted the testimony of her son.
A fool thinks himself to be wise, but a wise man knows himself to be a fool.
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Bruce
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Re: Leaving Neverland

Post by Bruce » Mon Mar 04, 2019 3:56 am

These children would be adults now. Have they come forward with anything? At the time, Jackson was proclaiming everything to a innocent boyhood fun that he never experienced as a child or whatever. All that became really hard to swallow when they found wine in his bedroom and he called it Jesus Juice.
Such potential!

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Re: Leaving Neverland

Post by Anaxagoras » Mon Mar 04, 2019 4:18 am

Bruce wrote:
Mon Mar 04, 2019 3:56 am
These children would be adults now. Have they come forward with anything? At the time, Jackson was proclaiming everything to a innocent boyhood fun that he never experienced as a child or whatever. All that became really hard to swallow when they found wine in his bedroom and he called it Jesus Juice.
The documentary features 2 of these boys and their mothers. They have come forward now. Jackson himself is dead, but his "estate" seems to be very profitable. All the more so now that Jackson himself is dead and cannot spend the money faster than it comes in anymore.
A fool thinks himself to be wise, but a wise man knows himself to be a fool.
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Re: Leaving Neverland

Post by Bruce » Mon Mar 04, 2019 4:36 am

Soooo.....did he diddle them or not?
Such potential!

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Re: Leaving Neverland

Post by Anaxagoras » Mon Mar 04, 2019 4:47 am

Yeah, it seems there's little room for doubt anymore about that.
A fool thinks himself to be wise, but a wise man knows himself to be a fool.
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Re: Leaving Neverland

Post by Bruce » Mon Mar 04, 2019 5:06 am

And now, much like Trump, crocs, Cosby, Matcha milk, Yeti Hunters, Anti-Vaxers, Fox News, and Fedoras, were all left wondering, how could we just sit here and let this happen?


Ok, I'm bored with this topic. What else is on?
:Popcorn: :Popcorn: :Popcorn: :Popcorn:
Such potential!

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Re: Leaving Neverland

Post by Doctor X » Mon Mar 04, 2019 5:30 am

Anaxagoras wrote:
Mon Mar 04, 2019 4:47 am
Yeah, it seems there's little room for doubt anymore about that.
Hey! Spoilers!!!! :x

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Re: Leaving Neverland

Post by Abdul Alhazred » Mon Mar 04, 2019 1:49 pm

Consequently MJ is about to be an unperson.

BBC Radio 2 drops Michael Jackson songs from the airwaves after new string of child sex abuse claims against the one-time King of Pop
Daily Fail

It's all very well, but I don't like the precedent this sets.

What if his music didn't suck?
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Re: Leaving Neverland

Post by ed » Mon Mar 04, 2019 1:51 pm

VSUA

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Re: Leaving Neverland

Post by Giz » Tue Mar 05, 2019 10:04 pm

Abdul Alhazred wrote:
Mon Mar 04, 2019 1:49 pm
Consequently MJ is about to be an unperson.

BBC Radio 2 drops Michael Jackson songs from the airwaves after new string of child sex abuse claims against the one-time King of Pop
Daily Fail

It's all very well, but I don't like the precedent this sets.

What if his music didn't suck?
There’s still Wagner

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Re: Leaving Neverland

Post by Witness » Tue Mar 05, 2019 10:22 pm

Giz wrote:
Tue Mar 05, 2019 10:04 pm
There’s still Wagner


:mrgreen:

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Re: Leaving Neverland

Post by Doctor X » Wed Mar 06, 2019 7:47 am

Giz wrote:
Tue Mar 05, 2019 10:04 pm
There’s still Wagner
Labour needs its soundtrack.

Meanwhile, I can understand why a Sports Talking Head described that since he watched this he became so angry he has been walking around wanting to punch someone in the face.

--J.D.
Mob of the Mean: Free beanie, cattle-prod and Charley Fan Club!
"Doctor X is just treating you the way he treats everyone--as subhuman crap too dumb to breathe in after you breathe out."--Don
DocX: FTW.--sparks
"Doctor X wins again."--Pyrrho
"Never sorry to make a racist Fucktard cry."--His Humble MagNIfIcence
"It was the criticisms of Doc X, actually, that let me see more clearly how far the hypocrisy had gone."--clarsct
"I'd leave it up to Doctor X who has been a benevolent tyrant so far."--Grammatron
"Indeed you are a river to your people.
Shit. That's going to end up in your sig."--Pyrrho
"Try a twelve step program and accept Doctor X as your High Power."--asthmatic camel
"just like Doc X said." --gnome

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Re: Leaving Neverland

Post by Giz » Wed Mar 06, 2019 1:25 pm

Doctor X wrote:
Wed Mar 06, 2019 7:47 am
Giz wrote:
Tue Mar 05, 2019 10:04 pm
There’s still Wagner
Labour needs its soundtrack.

Meanwhile, I can understand why a Sports Talking Head described that since he watched this he became so angry he has been walking around wanting to punch someone in the face.

--J.D.
And who knows what Liam Neeson will do?

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Re: Leaving Neverland

Post by ed » Sat Mar 23, 2019 10:29 am

B. Streisand, washed up personality:

Barbra Streisand is under fire for comments she made about two men accusing Michael Jackson of sexually assaulting them as children.

The legendary singer and actress said that Wade Robson and James Safechuck — whose allegations against the late King of Pop resurfaced in the recent documentary “Leaving Neverland" — “were thrilled to be there” and that what allegedly happened to them “didn’t kill them."
Advertisement

Streisand, 76, made the strange comments to British newspaper The Times in a piece out Friday, in which she also said that Jackson’s “sexual needs were his sexual needs.”

She says she “absolutely” believes the allegations of abuse by Robson and Safechuck, but puts more blame on their parents than The Gloved One.

“His sexual needs were his sexual needs, coming from whatever childhood he has or whatever DNA he has," Streisand told The Times. “You can say ‘molested,' but those children, as you heard say [grown-up Robson and Safechuck], they were thrilled to be there. They both married and they both have children, so it didn’t kill them.”
https://www.nydailynews.com/entertainme ... ssion=true

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Re: Leaving Neverland

Post by shemp » Sun Mar 24, 2019 6:47 pm

Well, there were some victims who survived the Holocaust, so what's the big deal?


























What?
































:bricks:
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Re: Leaving Neverland

Post by sparks » Sun Mar 24, 2019 8:38 pm

ed wrote:
Sat Mar 23, 2019 10:29 am
B. Streisand, washed up personality:

Babs said blah blah blah
https://www.nydailynews.com/entertainme ... ssion=true

As Kelly Bundy says "the mind wobbles"
Yep. Proof that Babs is just a bit 'round the bend. One brick shy of a load. A smidge weak in the rafters. A wee bit touched. Ain't got both oars in the water. A...ALRIGHT damnit, stop that!
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Re: Leaving Neverland

Post by Abdul Alhazred » Sun Mar 24, 2019 9:49 pm

100% in sync with Hollwood sensibilities.

Like Polanski's friends.
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Re: Leaving Neverland

Post by Doctor X » Mon Mar 25, 2019 3:32 am

I always liked "a few fries short of a Happy Meal."

--J.D.
Mob of the Mean: Free beanie, cattle-prod and Charley Fan Club!
"Doctor X is just treating you the way he treats everyone--as subhuman crap too dumb to breathe in after you breathe out."--Don
DocX: FTW.--sparks
"Doctor X wins again."--Pyrrho
"Never sorry to make a racist Fucktard cry."--His Humble MagNIfIcence
"It was the criticisms of Doc X, actually, that let me see more clearly how far the hypocrisy had gone."--clarsct
"I'd leave it up to Doctor X who has been a benevolent tyrant so far."--Grammatron
"Indeed you are a river to your people.
Shit. That's going to end up in your sig."--Pyrrho
"Try a twelve step program and accept Doctor X as your High Power."--asthmatic camel
"just like Doc X said." --gnome

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Re: Leaving Neverland

Post by Doctor X » Mon Mar 25, 2019 4:00 am

shemp wrote:
Sun Mar 24, 2019 6:47 pm
Well, there were some victims who survived the Holocaust, so what's the big deal?
And some of them went on to have families and successful careers so, if anything, they should be thanking Hitler.






Image

--J.D.
Mob of the Mean: Free beanie, cattle-prod and Charley Fan Club!
"Doctor X is just treating you the way he treats everyone--as subhuman crap too dumb to breathe in after you breathe out."--Don
DocX: FTW.--sparks
"Doctor X wins again."--Pyrrho
"Never sorry to make a racist Fucktard cry."--His Humble MagNIfIcence
"It was the criticisms of Doc X, actually, that let me see more clearly how far the hypocrisy had gone."--clarsct
"I'd leave it up to Doctor X who has been a benevolent tyrant so far."--Grammatron
"Indeed you are a river to your people.
Shit. That's going to end up in your sig."--Pyrrho
"Try a twelve step program and accept Doctor X as your High Power."--asthmatic camel
"just like Doc X said." --gnome

WS CHAMPIONS X4!!!! NBA CHAMPIONS!! Stanley Cup! SB CHAMPIONS X6!!!!!!

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Re: Leaving Neverland

Post by sparks » Mon Mar 25, 2019 5:16 am

Did you just technically at least, Godwin the thread? Or is there a way out of that?
You can lead them to knowledge, but you can't make them think.