Lion Air

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sparks
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Re: Lion Air

Post by sparks » Mon Mar 11, 2019 5:08 pm

Fuck.
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Rob Lister
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Re: Lion Air

Post by Rob Lister » Mon Mar 11, 2019 6:38 pm

sparks wrote:
Mon Mar 11, 2019 5:08 pm
Fuck.

I've got a bit of a headache right now. And I'm a little yeasty. Later maybe.

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Re: Lion Air

Post by sparks » Mon Mar 11, 2019 8:39 pm

I understand Listy. Thank you for letting me know. :)
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Re: Lion Air

Post by Anaxagoras » Wed Mar 13, 2019 4:59 am

Blame Darth Cheeto's government shutdown: :notsure:

Boeing to update 737 MAXs after delaying changes for months
Boeing plans to make major changes to the flight control systems on the 737 MAX aircraft — just months after delaying a similar software fix due to failed negotiations with the FAA, a report says.

Sources briefed on the talks told The Wall Street Journal that federal regulators determined that the delay was acceptable because its experts believed there was no imminent safety threat, as did Boeing’s.

The updates — which involve multiple sensors, or data feeds, being rolled out into the MAX’s stall-prevention system in place of its current single-sensor setup — were ordered up in the wake of the deadly Lion Air crash in Indonesia last October and were originally planned for early January.

“For the past several months … Boeing has been developing a flight control software enhancement for the 737 MAX, designed to make an already safe aircraft even safer,” the plane maker said in a statement late Monday. “This includes updates to the Maneuvering Characteristics Augmentation System (MCAS) flight control law, pilot displays, operation manuals and crew training.”

Sunday’s Ethiopia crash marks the second time in less than six months that a 737 MAX aircraft has gone down.

Differences of opinion about technical and engineering issues ultimately led to Boeing’s software change delays, according to the WSJ.
According to the WSJ, US officials have also blamed part of the delay on this year’s government shutdown — saying it halted work for at least five weeks.

The FAA insisted Tuesday in a statement that its ongoing review of the 737 MAXs “shows no systemic performance issues” related to the flight-control system and “provides no basis to order grounding the aircraft.”
OK, that's premature, since they haven't officially determined what caused the accident yet. Buuuut, . . . :notsure:
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Re: Lion Air

Post by Anaxagoras » Wed Mar 13, 2019 5:55 am

Ethiopian plane smoked and shuddered before deadly plunge (Reuters)
GARA-BOKKA, Ethiopia (Reuters) - The Ethiopian Airlines plane that crashed killing 157 people was making a strange rattling noise and trailed smoke and debris as it swerved above a field of panicked cows before hitting earth, according to witnesses.
Half a dozen witnesses interviewed by Reuters in the farmland where the plane came down reported smoke billowing out behind, while four of them also described a loud sound.

“It was a loud rattling sound. Like straining and shaking metal,” said Turn Buzuna, a 26-year-old housewife and farmer who lives about 300 meters (328 yards) from the crash site.

“Everyone says they have never heard that kind of sound from a plane and they are under a flight path,” she added.

Malka Galato, 47, a barley and wheat farmer whose field the plane crashed in, also described smoke and sparks from the back. “The plane was very close to the ground and it made a turn... Cows that were grazing in the fields ran in panic,” he said.

Tamirat Abera, 25, was walking past the field at the time. He said the plane turned sharply, trailing white smoke and items like clothes and papers, then crashed about 300 meters away.

“It tried to climb but it failed and went down nose first,” he said. “There was fire and white smoke which then turned black.”
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Don Logan
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Re: Lion Air

Post by Don Logan » Wed Mar 13, 2019 6:13 am

What?

Image

This?

I'm not puttin' it out so you'll just have to wait.
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Re: Lion Air

Post by Anaxagoras » Thu Mar 14, 2019 8:26 am

Why Investigators Fear the Two Boeing 737s Crashed for Similar Reasons
The causes of both crashes are still under investigation. But the data cited by regulators points to preliminary indications that the two planes could have been brought down by the same cause, a malfunctioning automated system intended to keep the jet from stalling.
Marc Garneau, Canada’s transport minister, said on Wednesday that the satellite-tracking data revealed “vertical variations” in the Ethiopian Airlines flight reminiscent of those seen before the crash of the Lion Air Boeing 737 Max in Indonesia in October.
Why is the autopilot trying to kill people.
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sparks
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Re: Lion Air

Post by sparks » Thu Mar 14, 2019 8:37 am

I guess it doesn't like them. But then again, who does? Goddamned entitled globe trotting 1 percenters sitting there in 1st class squeezing black heads and not giving a tinkers damn for the plight of the common man!

"They bought their tickets. Let 'em die!!!"
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Re: Lion Air

Post by Anaxagoras » Thu Mar 14, 2019 8:56 am

Points of similarity:

In both cases the planes were very new, just months after delivery, and although the pilots had thousands of hours of flight time experience on other aircraft, it was a new aircraft to them. About 2 months old in the first case, and 4 months in the second case.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lion_Air_ ... 0#Aircraft
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ethiopian ... 2#Aircraft

Also the satellite tracking data looks similar.
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Re: Lion Air

Post by ed » Thu Mar 14, 2019 11:18 am

sparks wrote:
Thu Mar 14, 2019 8:37 am
I guess it doesn't like them. But then again, who does? Goddamned entitled globe trotting 1 percenters sitting there in 1st class squeezing black heads and not giving a tinkers damn for the plight of the common man!

"They bought their tickets. Let 'em die!!!"
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Doctor X
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Re: Lion Air

Post by Doctor X » Thu Mar 14, 2019 2:36 pm

Anaxagoras wrote:
Thu Mar 14, 2019 8:26 am
Why is the autopilot trying to kill people.
Image

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Re: Lion Air

Post by Witness » Thu Mar 14, 2019 11:38 pm

Image

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Re: Lion Air

Post by Abdul Alhazred » Sat Mar 16, 2019 10:50 pm

It's 20 minutes of no bullshit.

Lays out the technical issues of the 737 MAX and why the older 737 systems don't have the problem.

Best viewed full screen.



Just an aside: There are issues that may have some relevance with self driving cars as well.
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Re: Lion Air

Post by Anaxagoras » Tue Mar 19, 2019 11:03 pm

https://www.nytimes.com/2019/03/19/podc ... crash.html

Short version is that this plane was made to compete with a similar sized Airbus plane, which is more fuel-efficient than earlier models of the 737. The selling point was that pilots who already know how to fly the 737 won't need any retraining or flight simulator time. They even decided that pilots didn't need to know about the new MCAS system, so when they ran into problems, the pilots didn't even know that the system existed or that it was what was causing the problem.
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Rob Lister
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Re: Lion Air

Post by Rob Lister » Tue Mar 19, 2019 11:11 pm

What I don't get is that only three months earlier the Lion Air fix was in to avoid this catastrophic event. I can't fathom how they did not know, what with being pilots of that very publicized plane?


Maybe they were too busy looking for a sandwich.


Okay, that was just wrong, too soon, and just bad. I'm sorry.

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Re: Lion Air

Post by Witness » Thu Mar 21, 2019 12:03 am

FBI joining criminal investigation into certification of Boeing 737 MAX

The FBI has joined the criminal investigation into the certification of the Boeing 737 MAX, lending its considerable resources to an inquiry already being conducted by U.S. Department of Transportation agents, according to people familiar with the matter.

The federal grand jury investigation, based in Washington, D.C., is looking into the certification process that approved the safety of the new Boeing plane, two of which have crashed since October.

The FBI’s Seattle field office lies in proximity to Boeing’s 737 manufacturing plant in Renton, as well as nearby offices of Boeing and Federal Aviation Administration (FAA) officials involved in the certification of the plane.

The investigation, which is being overseen by the U.S. Justice Department’s criminal division and carried out by the Transportation Department’s Inspector General, began in response to information obtained after a Lion Air 737 MAX 8 crashed shortly after takeoff from Jakarta on Oct. 29, killing 189 people, Bloomberg reported earlier this week, citing an unnamed source.

It has widened since then, The Associated Press reported this week, with the grand jury issuing a subpoena on March 11 for information from someone involved in the plane’s development, one day after the crash of an Ethiopian Airlines 737 MAX 8 near Addis Ababa that killed 157 people.

The FBI’s support role was described by people on condition of anonymity because of the confidential nature of the investigation.
https://www.seattletimes.com/business/b ... g-737-max/

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Re: Lion Air

Post by Anaxagoras » Mon Apr 08, 2019 8:01 am

Why Boeing’s emergency directions may have failed to save 737 MAX
The pilots of the Ethiopian Airlines 737 MAX that crashed last month appear to have followed the emergency procedure laid out by both Boeing and the Federal Aviation Administration — cutting off the suspect flight-control system — but could not regain control and avert the plunge that killed all 157 on board.

Press reports citing people briefed on the crash investigation’s preliminary findings said the pilots hit the system-cutoff switches as Boeing had instructed after October’s Lion Air MAX crash, but couldn’t get the plane’s nose back up. They then turned the system back on before the plane nose-dived into the ground.

While the new software fix Boeing has proposed will likely prevent this situation recurring, if the preliminary investigation confirms that the Ethiopian pilots did cut off the automatic flight-control system, this is still a nightmarish outcome for Boeing and the FAA.

It would suggest the emergency procedure laid out by Boeing and passed along by the FAA after the Lion Air crash is wholly inadequate and failed the Ethiopian flight crew.
Image
The elevator and stabilizer normally work together to minimize the loads on the jackscrew. But in certain conditions, the elevator and stabilizer loads combine to present high forces on the jackscrew and make it very difficult to turn manually.

As the jet’s airspeed increases — and with nose down it will accelerate — these forces grow even stronger.

In this scenario, the air flow pushing downward against the elevator would have created an equal and opposite load on the jackscrew, a force tending to hold the stabilizer in its upward displacement. This heavy force would resist the pilot’s manual effort to swivel the stabilizer back down.

This analysis suggests the stabilizer trim wheel at the Ethiopian captain’s right hand could have been difficult to budge. As a result, the pilots would have struggled to get the nose up and the plane to climb.

If after much physical exertion failed, the pilots gave up their manual strategy and switched the electric trim system back on — as indicated in the preliminary reports on the Ethiopian flight — MCAS would have begun pushing the nose down again.
However, a separate analysis done by Bjorn Fehrm, a former jet-fighter pilot and an aeronautical engineer who is now an analyst with Leeham.net, replicates Lemme’s conclusion that excessive forces on the stabilizer trim wheel led the pilots to lose control.

Fehrm collaborated with a Swedish pilot for a major European airline to do a simulator test that recreated the possible conditions in the Ethiopian cockpit.

A chilling video of how that simulator test played out was posted to YouTube and showed exactly the scenario envisaged in the analysis, elevating it from plausible theory to demonstrated possibility.

The Swedish pilot is a 737 flight instructor and training captain who hosts a popular YouTube channel called Mentour Pilot, where he communicates the intricate details of flying an airliner. To protect his employment, his name and the name of his airline are not revealed, but he is very clearly an expert 737 pilot.

In the test, the two European pilots in the 737 simulator set up a situation reflecting what happens when the pre-software fix MCAS is activated: They moved the stabilizer to push the nose down. They set the indicators to show disagreement over the air speed and followed normal procedures to address that, which increases airspeed.

They then followed the instructions Boeing recommended and, as airspeed increases, the forces on the control column and on the stabilizer wheel become increasingly strong.
Here's that youtube channel. It's not clear exactly which video he's talking about:

https://www.youtube.com/channel/UCwpHKu ... 3ow/videos
After just a few minutes, with the plane still nose down, the Swedish 737 training pilot is exerting all his might to hold the control column, locking his upper arms around it. Meanwhile, on his right, the first officer tries vainly to turn the stabilizer wheel, barely able to budge it by the end.

If this had been a real flight, these two very competent 737 pilots would have been all but lost.

The Swedish pilot says at the start of the video that he’s posting it both as a cautionary safety alert but also to undercut the narrative among some pilots, especially Americans, that the Indonesian and Ethiopian flight crews must have been incompetent and couldn’t “just fly the airplane.”
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Re: Lion Air

Post by Anaxagoras » Mon Apr 08, 2019 8:20 am

In case anyone thinks that Trump and Capitalism aren't getting enough blame:

https://www.theguardian.com/commentisfr ... te-america
It is not just Boeing, a once magnificent company, that is being condemned – it is the US’s wider economic, political and regulatory structures. What is not required is a short-term software fix on the faulty MCAS system that automatically adjusts the plane’s flight trajectory, along with an improved safety manual and training for pilots, which is Boeing’s response so far. What is needed is a root-and-branch overhaul of the intersection between capitalism and democracy in the US. The current set-up – and the accompanying libertarian, anti-state, anti-regulation philosophy – literally kills people.
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Re: Lion Air

Post by Doctor X » Mon Apr 08, 2019 8:32 am

The Guardian . . . the Daily Mail of the liberals who do not think "Mad Jeremy" Corbyn hates Jews enough.

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ed
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Re: Lion Air

Post by ed » Mon Apr 08, 2019 10:50 am

1- It goes without saying that it's Trumps fault
2- It also goes without saying that this is an indictment of our economic system
3- What makes the problem occur? Why does it on happen every time the plane flys?
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