Trolley problem

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Pyrrho
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Trolley problem

Post by Pyrrho » Sat Apr 27, 2019 11:38 am


The flash of light you saw in the sky was not a UFO. Swamp gas from a weather balloon was trapped in a thermal pocket and reflected the light from Venus.

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Nyarlathotep
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Re: Trolley problem

Post by Nyarlathotep » Sat Apr 27, 2019 7:25 pm

The Trolley Problem has a very clear solution

The Luggage said nothing, but louder this time.

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gnome
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Re: Trolley problem

Post by gnome » Sun May 05, 2019 3:51 am

Variations on this one eat at me a bit. In the "switch" version I would direct the train towards the fewer number of people with little hesitation. In the "push" version I would probably not push someone into the way. Though, the result is identical, and I have exactly as much control over the outcome in both cases.

I've really no idea why the distinction is so important to me. For now I just take it as a deconstruction of pure utilitarianism.
"If fighting is sure to result in victory, then you must fight! Sun Tzu said that, and I'd say he knows a little bit more about fighting than you do, pal, because he invented it, and then he perfected it so that no living man could best him in the ring of honor. Then, he used his fight money to buy two of every animal on earth, and then he herded them onto a boat, and then he beat the crap out of every single one. And from that day forward any time a bunch of animals are together in one place it's called a zoo! (Beat) Unless it's a farm!"
--Soldier, TF2

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Abdul Alhazred
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Re: Trolley problem

Post by Abdul Alhazred » Sun May 05, 2019 3:59 am

Sometimes I think the trolley problem was deliberately constructed to train people to be blase about collateral damage.
Image "If I turn in a sicko, will I get a reward?"

"Yes! A BIG REWARD!" ====> Click here to turn in a sicko
The arc of the moral universe bends towards chaos.
People who believe God or History are on their side provide the chaos.

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gnome
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Re: Trolley problem

Post by gnome » Sun May 05, 2019 5:43 pm

Oh yes--there's room for a MASSIVE false dichotomy. Outside of theoretical scenarios I'm sure it is difficult to be certain that there are no other options, or that any of the proposed options will work out as expected. I'm sure that's why a train is used--there's an image of inevitability that already puts the brain towards thinking inside the box.
"If fighting is sure to result in victory, then you must fight! Sun Tzu said that, and I'd say he knows a little bit more about fighting than you do, pal, because he invented it, and then he perfected it so that no living man could best him in the ring of honor. Then, he used his fight money to buy two of every animal on earth, and then he herded them onto a boat, and then he beat the crap out of every single one. And from that day forward any time a bunch of animals are together in one place it's called a zoo! (Beat) Unless it's a farm!"
--Soldier, TF2

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gnome
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Re: Trolley problem

Post by gnome » Sun May 05, 2019 5:47 pm

Possibly the "prime directive" of any attempt to apply game theory to real-life scenarios is to look for the exploit, or even a cheat. RL has those, possibly more often than games. There are unmodeled factors.
"If fighting is sure to result in victory, then you must fight! Sun Tzu said that, and I'd say he knows a little bit more about fighting than you do, pal, because he invented it, and then he perfected it so that no living man could best him in the ring of honor. Then, he used his fight money to buy two of every animal on earth, and then he herded them onto a boat, and then he beat the crap out of every single one. And from that day forward any time a bunch of animals are together in one place it's called a zoo! (Beat) Unless it's a farm!"
--Soldier, TF2

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ceptimus
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Re: Trolley problem

Post by ceptimus » Wed Jun 26, 2019 2:30 am

gnome wrote:
Sun May 05, 2019 3:51 am
I've really no idea why the distinction is so important to me. For now I just take it as a deconstruction of pure utilitarianism.
Throwing the switch, you only commit the minor crime of interfering with the property of the trolley company - and everyone would let you off because you save lives. Pushing the person under the trolley, you commit murder, and even though you still save lives, you're most likely to be subject to a lengthy and stressful trial at the very least.

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Rob Lister
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Re: Trolley problem

Post by Rob Lister » Wed Jun 26, 2019 9:22 am

gnome wrote:
Sun May 05, 2019 3:51 am
Variations on this one eat at me a bit. In the "switch" version I would direct the train towards the fewer number of people with little hesitation. In the "push" version I would probably not push someone into the way. Though, the result is identical, and I have exactly as much control over the outcome in both cases.

I've really no idea why the distinction is so important to me. For now I just take it as a deconstruction of pure utilitarianism.
You are the epitome of Chidi Anagonye in The Good Place.

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gnome
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Re: Trolley problem

Post by gnome » Fri Aug 09, 2019 1:57 am

My wife would probably appreciate it if I had his abs.

But maybe I am a little, only actually capable of making a decision.

So am I the white equivalent of the black guy with no "soul"?



0:38
"If fighting is sure to result in victory, then you must fight! Sun Tzu said that, and I'd say he knows a little bit more about fighting than you do, pal, because he invented it, and then he perfected it so that no living man could best him in the ring of honor. Then, he used his fight money to buy two of every animal on earth, and then he herded them onto a boat, and then he beat the crap out of every single one. And from that day forward any time a bunch of animals are together in one place it's called a zoo! (Beat) Unless it's a farm!"
--Soldier, TF2

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Abdul Alhazred
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Re: Trolley problem

Post by Abdul Alhazred » Fri Aug 09, 2019 2:04 am

Sudden flash of insight.

Trolley problem in its original form.

It might be possible to save all lives (though likely there will be cuts and bruises) if by quick thinking you improvise something to derail the trolley. Depending on the type of switch, it might be possible by half pulling it.
Image "If I turn in a sicko, will I get a reward?"

"Yes! A BIG REWARD!" ====> Click here to turn in a sicko
The arc of the moral universe bends towards chaos.
People who believe God or History are on their side provide the chaos.

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gnome
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Re: Trolley problem

Post by gnome » Fri Aug 09, 2019 2:39 am

There's that imperative to find a reality-based loophole. Within the purely philosophical construct, that's a cheat though, as much as announcing that you'll put a crash-proof shield on the victims--making assumptions beyond the premise.
"If fighting is sure to result in victory, then you must fight! Sun Tzu said that, and I'd say he knows a little bit more about fighting than you do, pal, because he invented it, and then he perfected it so that no living man could best him in the ring of honor. Then, he used his fight money to buy two of every animal on earth, and then he herded them onto a boat, and then he beat the crap out of every single one. And from that day forward any time a bunch of animals are together in one place it's called a zoo! (Beat) Unless it's a farm!"
--Soldier, TF2

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Pyrrho
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Re: Trolley problem

Post by Pyrrho » Tue Nov 05, 2019 10:56 am


The flash of light you saw in the sky was not a UFO. Swamp gas from a weather balloon was trapped in a thermal pocket and reflected the light from Venus.

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Abdul Alhazred
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Re: Trolley problem

Post by Abdul Alhazred » Tue Nov 05, 2019 1:23 pm

I am now certain the trolley problem is always a propaganda exercise in making the ruling class feel good about their crimes and getting people to sit still for them.

Take out the trolley with an anti-tank round, as once happened in the last days of Yugoslavia.
Image "If I turn in a sicko, will I get a reward?"

"Yes! A BIG REWARD!" ====> Click here to turn in a sicko
The arc of the moral universe bends towards chaos.
People who believe God or History are on their side provide the chaos.

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gnome
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Re: Trolley problem

Post by gnome » Tue Nov 05, 2019 1:26 pm

ceptimus wrote:
Wed Jun 26, 2019 2:30 am
gnome wrote:
Sun May 05, 2019 3:51 am
I've really no idea why the distinction is so important to me. For now I just take it as a deconstruction of pure utilitarianism.
Throwing the switch, you only commit the minor crime of interfering with the property of the trolley company - and everyone would let you off because you save lives. Pushing the person under the trolley, you commit murder, and even though you still save lives, you're most likely to be subject to a lengthy and stressful trial at the very least.
And yet, if I were promised immunity from prosecution or other consequences to myself, I would still struggle over the decision. So I don't think that's it.
"If fighting is sure to result in victory, then you must fight! Sun Tzu said that, and I'd say he knows a little bit more about fighting than you do, pal, because he invented it, and then he perfected it so that no living man could best him in the ring of honor. Then, he used his fight money to buy two of every animal on earth, and then he herded them onto a boat, and then he beat the crap out of every single one. And from that day forward any time a bunch of animals are together in one place it's called a zoo! (Beat) Unless it's a farm!"
--Soldier, TF2

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ceptimus
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Re: Trolley problem

Post by ceptimus » Tue Nov 05, 2019 6:18 pm

Maybe the recurring nightmares about the guy you pushed would haunt you - whereas by doing nothing you can look the other way as the carnage ensues, and think, "I had nothing to do with it." Probably best if you get away from the trolley track before the impact occurs - perhaps there is a little coffee shop you can slip into.

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Anaxagoras
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Re: Trolley problem

Post by Anaxagoras » Mon Nov 11, 2019 11:35 am



This is kinda cool actually.

A psychological study on real live unsuspecting victims placed in the position of playing God.
A fool thinks himself to be wise, but a wise man knows himself to be a fool.
William Shakespeare