Lion Air

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Anaxagoras
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Re: Lion Air

Post by Anaxagoras » Mon Apr 08, 2019 1:02 pm

ed wrote:
Mon Apr 08, 2019 10:50 am
3- What makes the problem occur? Why does it on happen every time the plane flys?
See my post above with the graphic. Read the article. The caveat is that these are still preliminary findings. But it seems that the way the plane was designed is faulty. There's a kind of automatic system that was supposed to prevent the plane from stalling but has resulted in the plane crashing twice now because they didn't fully recognize how it could malfunction.
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ed
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Re: Lion Air

Post by ed » Mon Apr 08, 2019 1:04 pm

Anaxagoras wrote:
Mon Apr 08, 2019 1:02 pm
ed wrote:
Mon Apr 08, 2019 10:50 am
3- What makes the problem occur? Why does it on happen every time the plane flys?
See my post above with the graphic. Read the article. The caveat is that these are still preliminary findings. But it seems that the way the plane was designed is faulty. There's a kind of automatic system that was supposed to prevent the plane from stalling but has resulted in the plane crashing twice now because they didn't fully recognize how it could malfunction.
I get all that but why not every time?
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Re: Lion Air

Post by Anaxagoras » Mon Apr 08, 2019 1:08 pm

Because I think it only happens when the angle of attack sensor is faulty. Maybe a bird hit it.
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ed
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Re: Lion Air

Post by ed » Mon Apr 08, 2019 1:14 pm

How much information does a commercial jet generate potentially per second.

Like the sensor. the outpout + an indication that it is working, what is that, two bytes and a bit?
So what is everything? a gig? no, too much.

Why dont they just transmit the whole fucking mess continuously? I have suggested this before and I was ignored.

ETA: And people have DIED as a result :x :x :x
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Re: Lion Air

Post by sparks » Mon Apr 08, 2019 2:23 pm

Some airlines to upload in real time IIRC.

Not ours. Because they don't care about The Childrenz(tm).
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Re: Lion Air

Post by ed » Mon Apr 08, 2019 2:25 pm

Knew it. Probably a Trump mandate.

It should be required. Probably pretty easy. I bet Rob could impliment it in a few minutes.
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Re: Lion Air

Post by Anaxagoras » Mon Apr 08, 2019 2:53 pm

I think it is just a little doohickey like this:

Image

A little blade on a spindle. Rotates according to the airflow. I don't think they have said why it wasn't working properly, but the consensus seems to be that it wasn't. So it was telling the flight control computer that the angle of attack was higher than it actually was in reality, causing the MCAS to automatically trim the rear stabs down, causing the nose of the aircraft to point down.

https://nationalpost.com/news/heres-the ... s-grounded
The 737 MAX 8 has heavier and more fuel-efficient engines than prior editions of the 737, a change which causes the aircraft to pitch upwards ever-so-slightly after takeoff.

Rather than instructing airlines to warn their pilots of this quirk, Boeing simply equipped the MAX 8 with MCAS, a program that would automatically tilt the nose downwards to compensate.

In normal circumstances, the system is not a problem, but it only takes a minor maintenance error to turn MCAS into a deadly liability.

In the case of Lion Air Flight 610, the 737 MAX 8 had a faulty “angle of attack sensor”; a small blade sticking out of the cockpit that records the angle of the aircraft in flight.

The sensor was wrongly telling the MAX 8’s flight computers that the aircraft was climbing much more sharply than it was. As a result, pilots were left wrestling with an aircraft that was repeatedly plunging itself towards the ground for no reason. A pilot can counteract the dive by pulling up on the control column, but MCAS will kick in again after only 10 seconds and once again tilt the plane downwards.

“If this is left unchecked (it) can lead to a potential nose heavy situation where it becomes almost impossible to manually raise the nose,” reads a November assessment of the Lion Air crash by Akan Bassey, a commercial pilot and blogger.

Indeed, the final minutes of Lion Air Flight 610 show the plane veering crazily up and down as the pilot fought with MCAS for control of the aircraft.

“The airplane tends to oscillate in this conflict between the software and the pilot,” Garneau, himself an experienced airman, said Wednesday.

Ultimately, the Lion Air 737 pitched itself forward 26 times before pilots ultimately lost control.

Adding to the confusion were stall warnings, in-cockpit alerts and faulty instrument readings, making it likely that the Lion Air pilots didn’t even know what was happening.

There is a series of complex steps that the pilots could have taken to override the MCAS system, but as the New York Times wrote in an analysis “these steps were not in the manual, and the pilots had not been trained in them.”

A Boeing official quoted by the Wall Street Journal said this was done due to fears of “inundating average pilots with too much information.”

However, while the manual may not contain MCAS-specific directions, a recent Boeing statement wrote that their manual “already outlines an existing procedure to safely handle the unlikely event of erroneous data coming from an angle of attack (AOA) sensor.”

“The pilot will always be able to override the flight control law using electric trim or manual trim,” it read.

Part of the relative mystery on MCAS is because it isn’t even supposed to be noticed by pilots, as it’s designed only to kick in during a potential emergency.

The program is a fail-safe designed to save the aircraft if it’s pitching too sharply, potentially putting it into a “stall”; a situation in which there is no longer enough air flowing over the wings to generate lift. As Boeing wrote in a recent statement, “MCAS does not control the airplane in normal flight; it improves the behavior of the airplane in a non-normal part of the operating envelope.”

Preliminary data from the crash of Ethiopian Airlines Flight 302 shows the same doomed trajectory. “It became clear — to all parties, actually — that the track of the Ethiopian Airlines flight was very close and behaved very similarly to the Lion Air flight,” Daniel Elwell, acting administrator of the Federal Aviation Administration, said in a briefing this week.
But see my previous post about how it may become impossible to manually fix the trim under certain conditions. This has recently been shown in a flight simulator.
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Rob Lister
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Re: Lion Air

Post by Rob Lister » Mon Apr 08, 2019 3:28 pm

Anaxagoras wrote:
Mon Apr 08, 2019 8:01 am
Here's that youtube channel. It's not clear exactly which video he's talking about:


thank you. you're welcome.

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Witness
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Re: Lion Air

Post by Witness » Thu Apr 25, 2019 12:08 am

Image

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Anaxagoras
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Re: Lion Air

Post by Anaxagoras » Mon Apr 29, 2019 12:08 pm

Boeing didn’t advise airlines, FAA that it shut off warning system
Boeing Co. didn’t tell Southwest Airlines Co. and other carriers when they began flying its 737 MAX jets that a safety feature found on earlier models that warns pilots about malfunctioning sensors had been deactivated, according to government and industry officials.

Federal Aviation Administration safety inspectors and supervisors responsible for monitoring Southwest, the largest 737 MAX customer, also were unaware of the change, the officials said.

The alerts inform pilots whether a sensor known as an “angle-of-attack vane” is transmitting errant data about the pitch of a plane’s nose. Accident investigators have linked such bad data to the deadly Ethiopian Airlines crash in March and the Lion Air crash last year; both planes lacked the alert system.

In the 737 MAX, which features a new automated stall-prevention system called MCAS, Boeing made those alerts optional; they would be operative only if a carrier bought a package of additional safety features.
"Optional safety features". Great. :|
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Re: Lion Air

Post by Rob Lister » Mon Apr 29, 2019 12:51 pm

To be fair, there is a precedent for this.

For cars, seatbelts used to be optional. As did airbags, anti-lock brakes [pretty recently], and rear-view camera [very recently. Still optional are Adaptive Cruise Control, Automatic Emergency Braking, Lane Departure Warning/Lane Keep, and Blind Spot Detection.

The buyers of the 737 paid their dime and took their chances.

OTOH, Boeing's implementation of the fallback MCAS system was like a car with anti-lock brakes that floors the gas when you slam on the brakes. So no love for them.

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Re: Lion Air

Post by Anaxagoras » Thu May 09, 2019 10:11 am

The many human errors that brought down the Boeing 737 Max

Starts with the story of what happened on the Lion Air flight before the one that crashed.
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ed
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Re: Lion Air

Post by ed » Mon Jun 03, 2019 2:07 pm

Thank you bureaucracy
SEATTLE — The fatal flaws with Boeing’s 737 Max can be traced to a breakdown late in the plane’s development, when test pilots, engineers and regulators were left in the dark about a fundamental overhaul to an automated system that would ultimately play a role in two crashes.

A year before the plane was finished, Boeing made the system more aggressive and riskier. While the original version relied on data from at least two types of sensors, the final version used just one, leaving the system without a critical safeguard. In both doomed flights, pilots struggled as a single damaged sensor sent the planes into irrecoverable nose-dives within minutes, killing 346 people and prompting regulators around the world to ground the Max.

But many people involved in building, testing and approving the system, known as MCAS, said they hadn’t fully understood the changes. Current and former employees at Boeing and the Federal Aviation Administration who spoke with The New York Times said they had assumed the system relied on more sensors and would rarely, if ever, activate. Based on those misguided assumptions, many made critical decisions, affecting design, certification and training.

“It doesn’t make any sense,” said a former test pilot who worked on the Max. “I wish I had the full story.”

While prosecutors and lawmakers try to piece together what went wrong, the current and former employees point to the single, fateful decision to change the system, which led to a series of design mistakes and regulatory oversights. As Boeing rushed to get the plane done, many of the employees say, they didn’t recognize the importance of the decision. They described a compartmentalized approach, each of them focusing on a small part of the plane. The process left them without a complete view of a critical and ultimately dangerous system.
https://www.nytimes.com/2019/06/01/busi ... ket-newtab

I am sure they had meetings and people were empowered. Meanwhile ...

ETA:
“Boeing has no higher priority than the safety of the flying public,” a company spokesman, Gordon Johndroe, said in a statement.
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Re: Lion Air

Post by Witness » Mon Jun 03, 2019 2:41 pm

ed wrote:
Mon Jun 03, 2019 2:07 pm

ETA:
“Boeing has no higher priority than the safety of the flying public,” a company spokesman, Gordon Johndroe, said in a statement.
Sure:
Boeing's nightmare year gets even worse as it admits hundreds of planes — including 159 737 Maxes — may have defective parts on their wings
  • Boeing on Sunday warned that 41 737 Max and Next Generation planes might have faulty slat tracks — a part of a wing that helps a plane maneuver.
  • It is urging airlines to also check almost 300 more planes in case they are affected as well.
  • The company said a batch of slat tracks "have a potential nonconformance."
  • The tracks guide the plane's slats — movable surfaces on the front of a wing that provide extra lift during takeoff and landing.
  • Boeing is having a nightmare year after two 737 Max planes crashed and killed hundreds of people, sparking a crisis of confidence in the manufacturer.
  • Multiple airlines are demanding compensation or amending orders from Boeing, and airline chiefs are openly discussing their doubts in the company.
https://www.businessinsider.com/boeing- ... &r=US&IR=T

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Re: Lion Air

Post by Witness » Mon Jun 10, 2019 3:07 am

Boeing delayed fix of defective 737 MAX warning light for three years: U.S. lawmakers

SEATTLE (Reuters) - Boeing Co learned that a cockpit warning light on its 737 MAX jetliner was defective in 2017 but decided to defer fixing it until 2020, U.S. lawmakers said on Friday.

The defective warning light alerts pilots when two sensors that measure the angle between the airflow and the wing disagree. Faulty “angle of attack” data is suspected of playing a role in two deadly crashes involving Boeing’s best-selling 737 MAX in Indonesia in October and in Ethiopia in March.

Those crashes, which killed 346 people, have triggered investigations by aviation regulators and U.S. lawmakers and left Chicago-based Boeing facing one of the biggest crises in its more than 100-year history.

Boeing decided in November 2017 to defer a software update to correct the so-called AOA Disagree alert defect until 2020, three years after discovering the flaw, U.S. Congressmen Peter DeFazio and Rick Larsen said in a press release on Friday. Boeing only accelerated this schedule after the Lion Air accident in Indonesia, they added.
https://www.reuters.com/article/us-boei ... SKCN1T8284

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Re: Lion Air

Post by Witness » Mon Jun 24, 2019 1:56 am

Boeing sued by more than 400 pilots in class action over 737 MAX's 'unprecedented cover-up'

More than 400 pilots have joined a class action against American plane manufacturer Boeing, seeking damages in the millions over what they allege was the company's "unprecedented cover-up" of the "known design flaws" of the latest edition of its top-selling jet, the 737 MAX.

Boeing's 737 MAX series— first announced in 2011 and put to service in 2017 — is the fourth generation of its 737 aircraft, a widely popular narrow-body aircraft model that has been a mainstay of short-haul aircraft routes across the globe.

By March 2019, the entire global fleet was suspended by a US presidential decree, following the second fatal crash involving a 737 MAX that killed 157 people in Ethiopia.

The first crash involving the 737 MAX jet happened off the coast of Indonesia in October 2018, killing 189 people.

In the time since the two fatal crashes, some of the families of the 346 people killed have sought compensation, while aircraft carriers — such as Norwegian Air — have sought compensation from the American manufacturer for lost revenue as a result of the plane's global ban.

This latest lawsuit filed against Boeing marks the first class action lodged by pilots qualified to fly the 737 MAX series, who have alleged that Boeing's decisions have caused them to suffer from monetary loss and mental distress since the jet's suspension.
https://www.abc.net.au/news/2019-06-23/ ... x/11238282

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Re: Lion Air

Post by Abdul Alhazred » Sat Jun 29, 2019 12:42 pm

It all becomes clear.

Boeing's 737 Max Software Outsourced to $9-an-Hour Engineers
Bloomberg
...

The Max software -- plagued by issues that could keep the planes grounded months longer after U.S. regulators this week revealed a new flaw -- was developed at a time Boeing was laying off experienced engineers and pressing suppliers to cut costs.

Increasingly, the iconic American planemaker and its subcontractors have relied on temporary workers making as little as $9 an hour to develop and test software, often from countries lacking a deep background in aerospace -- notably India.

...
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Re: Lion Air

Post by Rob Lister » Sat Jun 29, 2019 1:04 pm

The $9/hr programmers from idea may not understand in-flight meals, but I'm pretty sure they get the math.

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Re: Lion Air

Post by Abdul Alhazred » Sat Jun 29, 2019 1:10 pm

Rob Lister wrote:
Sat Jun 29, 2019 1:04 pm
The $9/hr programmers from idea may not understand in-flight meals, but I'm pretty sure they get the math.
Why? I'm not.
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Re: Lion Air

Post by Abdul Alhazred » Fri Jul 12, 2019 9:16 pm

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The arc of the moral universe bends towards chaos.
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