## Fukushima one year on

We are the Borg.
robinson
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### Re: Fukushima one year on

The grim truth is, and this is factual, not assumption, the grim truth is nobody actually knows how to "fix" a meltdown. Or clean up a building/reactor after it happens.

The Windscale reactor, which burned and melted down 10 October 1957, hasn't been cleaned up. And there is no current way to do so. They have talked about trying to remove the remaining core material, but nothing is available online about that.

The stark reality is that no building with a reactor meltdown has ever been cleaned up. And nobody knows how to do so. All of them are still exactly where they were when the disaster happened. Or somewhere near where it happened.

This reality bothers nuclear cheerleaders, but they will stop thinking about it in minutes after reading this. Or they might try and counter with something. Let me know how that works out.
robinson
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### Re: Fukushima one year on

The reason I wrote "The stark reality is that no building with a reactor meltdown has ever been cleaned up", is that they did remove the melted fuel from TMI 2 eventually. Or so they say. None of the melted fuel escaped the reactor vessel, except for the fuel that was found in the plumbing, outside containment, but it will eventually cool down so that it can be removed, to somewhere.

Nuclear cleanup means moving the dangerous material somewhere else. Cleaning up the building means taking it apart and moving it somewhere else. There is no actual plan on where to put this shit that would be considered safe in the long term.

But no building has been moved somewhere else yet. And you won't see this done in your lifetime.
sparks
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### Re: Fukushima one year on

"That's for the non radioactive ruined reactor building."

If non-radioactive, then how's it ruined?

Windscale: Shitty design all for the sake of weapons grade plutonium. Operator error as well. And now what's left of it (those pieces which couldn't be properly shielded and hauled away) is a fucking radioactive slag-heap. Shit happens all the time. Meh.
robinson
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### Re: Fukushima one year on

sparks wrote: Tue Oct 29, 2019 4:41 pm "That's for the non radioactive ruined reactor building."

If non-radioactive, then how's it ruined?
It was ruined by economics. Once they shut the reactor down, which they did, it's never going to run again. This is TMI 1
robinson wrote: Tue Oct 29, 2019 3:42 pm That's for the non radioactive ruined reactor building.
TMI 2 is the one with the metldown.
robinson
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### Re: Fukushima one year on

Idiot
Rob Lister
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### Re: Fukushima one year on

At some point, you're going to realize that you have more than sufficient number of characters to do all your silly ramblings in one post.

I'm too old to care but all your ramblings are for naught. Nuclear is the only solution.
sparks
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### Re: Fukushima one year on

Dipshit said: "It was ruined by economics. Once they shut the reactor down, which they did, it's never going to run again. This is TMI 1 "

Granted. In future, you may want to communicate a bit more specifically so as to avoid a "Failure To Communicate".

And fuck you too jizz hound. :)
robinson
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### Re: Fukushima one year on

sparks wrote: Tue Oct 29, 2019 4:41 pm Shit happens all the time. Meh.

The 2015 Gold King Mine waste water spill was an environmental disaster that began at the Gold King Mine near Silverton, Colorado,[2] when Environmental Protection Agency personnel, along with workers for Environmental Restoration LLC (a Missouri company under EPA contract to mitigate pollutants from the closed mine), caused the release of toxic waste water into the Animas River watershed. They caused the accident while attempting to drain ponded water near the entrance of the mine on August 5.[3] After the spill, the Silverton Board of Trustees and the San Juan County Commission approved a joint resolution seeking Superfund money.[4]

Contractors accidentally destroyed the plug holding water trapped inside the mine, which caused an overflow of the pond, spilling three million US gallons (eleven thousand cubic metres) of mine waste water and tailings, including heavy metals such as cadmium and lead, and other toxic elements, such as arsenic,[5] beryllium,[5] zinc,[5] iron[5] and copper[5] into Cement Creek, a tributary of the Animas River and part of the San Juan River and Colorado River watershed.[6] The EPA was criticized for not warning Colorado and New Mexico about the operation until the day after the waste water spilled, despite the fact the EPA employee "in charge of Gold King Mine knew of blowout risk."[7]

The EPA has taken responsibility for the incident, but refused to pay for any damages claims filed after the accident on grounds of sovereign immunity, pending special authorization from Congress or re-filing of lawsuits in federal court.[8]
en.wikipedia.org/wiki/2015_Gold_King_Mine_waste_water_spill
Witness
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### Re: Fukushima one year on

Fukushima to be reborn as $2.7bn wind and solar power hub Twenty-one plants and new power grid to supply Tokyo metropolitan area TOKYO -- Japan's northeastern prefecture of Fukushima, devastated during the 2011 earthquake and nuclear disaster, is looking to transform itself into a renewable energy hub, Nikkei has learned. A plan is under way to develop 11 solar power plants and 10 wind power plants in the prefecture, on farmlands that cannot be cultivated anymore and mountainous areas from where population outflows continue. The total cost is expected to be in the ballpark of 300 billion yen, or$2.75 billion, until the fiscal year ending in March 2024.

The government-owned Development Bank of Japan and private lender Mizuho Bank are among a group of financiers that have prepared a line of credit to support part of the construction cost.

The power generation available is estimated to be about 600 megawatts, or equivalent to two-thirds of a nuclear power plant. The produced electricity will be sent to the Tokyo metropolitan area.
robinson
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### Re: Fukushima one year on

The good news is clear enough. No matter what happens to a solar farm or a wind mill, it doesn't make your homeland uninhabitable for pretty much forever.
sparks
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### Re: Fukushima one year on

Wind farms cause cancer. Trump said so.
sparks
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### Re: Fukushima one year on

https://www.politifact.com/truth-o-mete ... ancer-cla/

Nothing much, just blowing more smoke out his ass.
Witness
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### Re: Fukushima one year on

Climate Change Is Breaking Open America's Nuclear Tomb

The Marshall Islands say that plutonium is leaking into the Pacific Ocean from the concrete dome the U.S. built to dispose of nuclear waste.

During the Cold War, the United States nuked the Marshall Islands 67 times. After it finished nuking the islands, the Pentagon dropped biological weapons on the islands. Once the U.S. was finished, it scooped the irradiated and ruined soil from the islands, poured it into a crater left behind from a nuclear detonation, mixed it all with concrete, and covered the whole thing in a concrete dome. They called it “The Tomb.” According to a report from The Los Angeles Times, climate change is breaking that dome open. Rising sea levels and temperatures are cracking open The Tomb, threatening to spill nuclear waste into the Pacific Ocean.

...

The U.S. has largely dismissed its responsibility to the Marshall Islands. It relocated many of its people and claims the cost of relocation and installation of The Tomb at the Enewetak Atoll covers its liability. As sea levels and temperatures rise, however, the Tomb is cracking. As it cracks, water rushes over it, leaching out plutonium and dumping it into the sea.

The U.S. has said The Tomb is now the Marshall Islands’ responsibility.
https://www.vice.com/en_us/article/3kxm ... clear-tomb
Rob Lister
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### Re: Fukushima one year on

https://i.imgur.com/1TAiNgZ.jpg
Rob Lister
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### Re: Fukushima one year on

Abdul Alhazred wrote: Sat Nov 16, 2019 5:04 pm What's breaking open America's nuclear tomb is that it was slapped together in a hurry in the first place to make certain troublemakers shut up about it. So without trying to refute climate change in general, I call bullshit.

What we see is some folks trying to avoid responsibility and make political hay about something the needs to be fixed quickly, separate from whatever must be done about climate change.
It's kind of a weird situation but we're paying ~\$75m a year continuously in what amounts to reparations for deeds not really done. I think the danger of leakage approaches zero for the next 500 or so years. Were the dome to completely crack, the worst that could happen is that the nastiness in it would leech into the ocean and be so diluted as to be non-substantial. There simply is no there, there. There are no people there. There are fish, and I wish them the best.
robinson
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### Re: Fukushima one year on

Rob Lister wrote: Sat Nov 16, 2019 5:40 pm Were the dome to completely crack, the worst that could happen is that the nastiness in it would leech into the ocean and be so diluted as to be non-substantial.
This is actually the level of ignorance one encounters when trying to educate about the dangers of fission by products, the extremely dangerous and radioactive materials.
robinson
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### Re: Fukushima one year on

By this logic, the solution to spent fuel rods is to simply dump them into the oceans.

Meanwhile, at Fukushima they are really trying to not let any of the material reach the ocean.
sparks
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### Re: Fukushima one year on

Wonder if anyone has done an analysis on what's actually there and taken readings on how radioactive it is?

Article says Plutonium is leaching into the ocean. How? This site was a bomb test site, not a reactor test site nor a spent fuel dump site. Just how much of the Plutonium trigger survives the detonation of a hydrogen bomb? Not very damn much I'm guessing. (Will Google and report back)

Then there's this gem: "“It was only a matter of two or three years before women on the island started to give birth to things less than human,” a Marshall Islands woman told diplomats on a fact finding mission decades later. Birth defects are so common on the islands that the people have a number of words to describe them, among them marlins, devils, jellyfish children, and grape babies."

Pretty sure if the Marshallese had been that irradiated, they'd simply have died without reproducing 'jellyfish children and grape babies'. Sounds like Vice is twisting shit for the sake of the fear factor, and of course, the Marshallese don't want to see their little gravy train stop. Ever.
Last edited by sparks on Sun Nov 17, 2019 5:13 pm, edited 1 time in total.
sparks
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### Re: Fukushima one year on

No info on how much (if any) Plutonium survives detonation in a Hydrogen bomb. And wildly conflicting info on how much Plutonium an H-bomb starts with. From 2 or 3 kilograms all the way up to 10 times that and beyond.
Witness
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### Re: Fukushima one year on

Wikipedia wrote:Trinity and Fat Man atomic bombs

The first atomic bomb test, codenamed "Trinity" and detonated on July 16, 1945, near Alamogordo, New Mexico, used plutonium as its fissile material.[42] The implosion design of "the gadget", as the Trinity device was code-named, used conventional explosive lenses to compress a sphere of plutonium into a supercritical mass, which was simultaneously showered with neutrons from the "Urchin", an initiator made of polonium and beryllium (neutron source: (α, n) reaction).[31] Together, these ensured a runaway chain reaction and explosion. The overall weapon weighed over 4 tonnes, although it used just 6.2 kg of plutonium in its core.[81] About 20% of the plutonium used in the Trinity weapon underwent fission, resulting in an explosion with an energy equivalent to approximately 20,000 tons of TNT.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Plutonium

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Plutonium for more.
sparks
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### Re: Fukushima one year on

Not very efficient, was it? If H-bomb triggers are the same, then every time a bell rings, 5 kilos of plutonium gets blasted into the atmosphere. How much would that leave to dump into a hole on Enewetak?

I have a tough time believing it's significant, but I could be wrong of course.

Now, nuclear reactors like the ones at Fukushima? Totally different fucking story. Not just a few kilos, but tons and tons. Many orders of magnitude of fucked.
Witness
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### Re: Fukushima one year on

Gov't says it is safe to release contaminated Fukushima water into ocean

TOKYO

Japan's industry ministry said Monday it would be safe to release water contaminated by the Fukushima nuclear disaster into the ocean, stressing that the health risk to humans would be "significantly small."

Discharging the water into the Pacific Ocean over the course of a year would lead to between just one-1,600th and one-40,000th of the radiation that humans are naturally exposed to, the Ministry of Economy, Trade and Industry told a government subcommittee on the issue.

Water used to cool the melted-down cores and groundwater near the crippled plant contains some radioactive materials, and is currently being collected and stored in tanks on the plant grounds.

But space is fast running out, and the government is exploring ways to deal with the water -- already amounting to more than 1 million tons and increasing every day.

According to the ministry, annual radiation levels near the release point is estimated at between 0.052 and 0.62 microsievert at sea and 1.3 microsieverts in the atmosphere, compared with the 2,100 microsieverts that humans come into contact with in daily life.

One member of the subcommittee called on the ministry to provide detailed data showing the impact of different conditions such as ocean currents and weather.

Another member requested more information on the amount of radiation that people would be internally exposed to depending on how much fish and seaweed they consume.
https://japantoday.com/category/nationa ... into-ocean
sparks
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### Re: Fukushima one year on

Skeptical only insofar as this info comes from the government.
Rob Lister
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### Re: Fukushima one year on

I predict no one will die or be harmed by this decision. That's a safe bet given the death toll so far. I know that the low -- perhaps non-existent -- current death toll bothers Robinson, but facts is facts.
sparks
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### Re: Fukushima one year on

https://getpocket.com/explore/item/fuku ... ket-newtab

OMG!!! Doomed :eekeyes: Doomed I tell ya.

Oh, as you were: One must go to extraordinary lengths to even detect it. :wink:
robinson
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### Re: Fukushima one year on

Rob Lister wrote: Tue Nov 19, 2019 4:30 pm I predict no one will die or be harmed by this decision.
The metric of "no one will die or be harmed" is common when people want to do something that is pretty much guaranteed to fuck things up. This reasoning is used even when it is obvious that people, and the very world itself have already been greatly harmed.

One could use this very reasoning to say the Fukushima disaster itself was no big deal, since nobody was killed or harmed by it happening. One could say the exact same thing about burning a million acres of rain forest, or the Exxon Valdez disaster. Clear cutting old growth forest, the extinction of species, the Deepwater Horizon oil spill, if nobody is harmed then it's OK, no need to even worry about it.

It's part and parcel of the old philosophy that it can't be a problem because "I can't see it from my house". I am not trying to take some moral high ground, because when I hear some great fire burned up part of California, if the news reports nobody dies and nobody was harmed, I don't even think about it.

Hell, even knowing people died in the (insert last named fire in California), I still don't really feel anything, other than a vague sense of wrongness, but it quickly is lost in the daily shit storm of other bad news. Mostly about #orangemanbad or street crime or how we are all doomed by the weather changing.
robinson
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### Re: Fukushima one year on

Something as invisible and hard to measure as radioactivity, which usually does it's harm over time, is really really hard to care about. Like the sunken reactor from a lost sub in the 1960s, leaking it's load of poison slowly into the depths.

Even if you know about it, and know it's causing a real problem, it's just not possible to really give a fuck.
sparks
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### Re: Fukushima one year on

Invisible? To the naked eye. Hard to measure? Nonsense.

Number of deaths due to ALL the abandoned/malfunctioning Navy reactors from all countries world wide?

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_m ... _accidents

So there have been casualties to be sure, but these people put themselves in harms way every day so we can sit here on our fat asses debating bullshit. :)
robinson
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### Re: Fukushima one year on

sparks wrote: Fri Dec 06, 2019 2:55 pm Invisible? To the naked eye.
Yes Billy. Radiation can't be seen.
sparks
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### Re: Fukushima one year on

Don't nit-pick, it's unseemly.

Besides, some radiation can be seen. Like light. But I think we all know that's not what you're on about here. :)
robinson
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### Re: Fukushima one year on

Now you are being an idiot. Or playing at it. Something. it doesn't even matter.

Alpha, Beta and Gamma radiation, none of it can be seen. Unless it's extreme, it also can't be felt.

While gamma rays are part of the electromagnetic spectrum. Alpha and beta particles are not.
Anaxagoras
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### Re: Fukushima one year on

Somewhere between half a banana and 13 bananas.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Banana_equivalent_dose
robinson
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### Re: Fukushima one year on

robinson wrote: Fri Dec 06, 2019 6:43 am ... the Fukushima disaster itself was no big deal, since nobody was killed or harmed by it happening.
sparks
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### Re: Fukushima one year on

He who quotes himself is a fool.

Just how many people have died as a result of Fukushima? Deliver facts or you're full of shit.

More shit in 3...2...1...
robinson
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### Re: Fukushima one year on

How many people died because of the Exxon Valdez disaster?

None.

So it wasn't anything to be concerned about.

This is the actual logic of the denier
sparks
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### Re: Fukushima one year on

No. The Exxon Valdez fucked an entire ecosystem. And BTW, that's an interesting analogy you pulled up there. If we depended on nuclear more, perhaps that mess of shit with the Exxon Valdez would never have happened.

But again, what has happened to the ecosystem as result of Fukushima? You keep implying that the toll is terrible, yet you provide no evidences. Now, I'm just as alarmed as you are that there are (possibly) most of 3 reactor cores unaccounted for. That is never a good thing and it will be of very serious concern until they are located and re-contained. But I see no reason to cry that the sky is falling when it clearly is not. A measured amount of concern for a measured situation seems in order as opposed to an unending amount of concern and fear, which is the conspiracy theorists actual logic.
Bananas?-Yes
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### Re: Fukushima one year on

I will apologize up front that I haven't yet read all pages of this thread, but I feel I can still post because just above I see some folks that want to try and compare Fukushima to other stupid human mistakes. I'm a little surprised smart folks like y'all would be trying to do that.

There cannot be any comparison to any other disaster, because --- Number One: Fukushima is a one of a kind.

Number Two: Folks that have the power to do so have been hiding information whenever they could get away with it, after somebody made the decision that something indeed needed to be covered up.

Number Three: There is a possibility at any time for a major shake to occur under that facility and scatter all that stored water, or any other nasty stuff all over the place and send even nastier stuff up into the air.

And Number Four: They are so many years away from cleaning that place up and they are so far from knowing everything that is wrong inside a few of those structures that there is no way a firm statement can be made that 'Now it is all safe, and will remain so until we are finished cleaning this mess up.'

I had the very sad experience of going up there, folks. It is not a pleasant place on Earth to visit. In fact, my initial intention was not to take a look at that facility itself. I went up for another purpose, but that went way wrong the moment I realized I had no business being there. (It was the second anniversary. The first anniversary I went back to the location where I was with some other folks when the very first shake took place. Very odd story, too, is just about 48 hours before the big shake I had suspected something was going to happen due to a much smaller shake that felt very weird and I posted in the admin section of my own site to my admin/moderator team that something seemed way wrong. We ended up putting that out on the main board.)

Anyway, back to that second anniversary visit up north, it was a very, very sad experience. Equal to only a few I've had in my life. Unfortunately, one I had just recently that was quite the shock. Very, very recently I learned I had actually forgotten what the smell of death is like and I didn't even know I had forgotten that awful smell. I think that was a bigger shock than my visit up to Fukushima.
Bananas?-Yes
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### Re: Fukushima one year on

And this won't be the last time we read about this or that change in planning and thinking and getting the job done of fixing the situation.

Japan revises Fukushima cleanup plan, delays key steps

I might be interested in investing in a huge concrete making facility near there, if I were going to be alive for another 10 to 15 years. I suspect that in about 10 to 15 years they will decide to create the largest concrete mountain in history. Might even be a glowing type mountain and a big tourist attraction from way off the coast.

And what was the designation of that big chopper I remember way back that we could put a small clinic under those big four legs and haul that to the field? I honestly can't remember as I type this, but after I post I'll go find out. I believe those were once used for fire fighting, too. Point is, we'll need a really big chopper to dump thousands of "boxes" full of concrete on all the former power plants --- it is a row of four. One huge mountain, for sure.

Wait!!! No chance them pyramid things in that Egypt place might have been ... - - - No, not possible, right?

Actually, the TEPCO Mountain would have to be bigger than any pyramid.

And I remember a lot of those government and TEPCO press conferences back then in those first couple of years when they kept insisting this was not near as bad as Chernobyl. They were sort of right. Going to turn out to be about ten times worse. But I don't think that is what they had in mind.

EDIT: CH54 I think I now remember. You know, these days there might now be one that can haul a heavier payload. But that box configuration might be so easy to use. Fill it up from above and then dump it from underneath. Would need a seriously strong sort of release mechanism underneath. I'm rather sure civilians could use those. I remember that the CH47 was against the law for civilians, but not the Crane -- and that nickname just popped into my old brain. You know, the brain really does start to have problems as one gets older. Can't complain about the chemo, though. It keeps me alive. But there sure are side issues with that stuff.
sparks
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### Re: Fukushima one year on

One more time and then I'm done with this fucking thread:

"I had actually forgotten what the smell of death is like"

Just what, exactly has died to produce this 'smell of death'?

No bullshit as with Robinson, just the evidences please.

Thanks.
Bananas?-Yes
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### Re: Fukushima one year on

I have some living quarters and sort of office I work out of off-and-on and it is a very unusual sort of complex owned by an old family in this city and so we have a very strange arrangement there --- for some background.

Now on the second floor of that building there are two side-by-side apartments and then a second smaller building just to the west of that one which also shares the same balcony and so the stairs; so I and the neighbor between my group of rooms and that smaller building have to pass that smaller apartment any time we go up and down and that fella in that smaller place was very particular in his habits and so if I were to stay there for any length of time I would be able to hear him go down the stairs at the same time every morning and then fire up his motorcycle just next to the stairs and so on. Now there are times I am not there for extended periods, so I am also keeping scant supplies there so as not to let things spoil if I am gone for lengthy periods of time. There is no real pattern to my ins-and-outs there.

So one week when I was in for an extended period of time I started to realize that I wasn't hearing that heavy footsteps going down those metal stairs at the proper time nor no sound of the motorcycle, but I can't say as it really bothered me. Folks living in that compound are not exactly the normal types, if I can be rough with the description of the mixed group we have spread out there over a few acres. It is a strange place and the rest of the city folks around there look upon us inside that place as to be wary of. And we certainly don't have social gatherings around there and don't really know much about each other, which is why it is used by some odd folks, like me. We greet each other politely but curtly, if the need arises; and no small talk except maybe weather related and very short. I didn't know that fella in that smaller group of rooms to the west, except he kept his car and motorcycle in good condition and kept the area around his door clean. It is an oddly large type of balcony arrangement --- only two floors in all the many buildings --- some other buildings I notice the residents get messy. We don't have that problem in that building or that smaller one just to the west. He seemed an okay fella. Sort of like y'all here in this Community.

Anyway, maybe three or four days after that no-normal-sounds (the buildings are very old built style [50 - 60 yrs old] of wood and easy to hear those with a heavy walking style) of that fella going in and out I needed to go get some supplies and when I came back about 2000hrs or so (getting on dark) I came through the complex and around the corner of another building and I see a whole mess of medics on the second floor of that smaller building where the motorcycle guy lived and a few law enforcement folks and down on the ground floor at the bottom of the stairs and eventually when I identified myself as the last resident down the balcony to the east they let me up the steps and to my place and I would say about halfway up, or two-thirds up, the steps that horrible smell hit me and, of course, it was worse and worse as I rounded that railing edge and passed that fella's door and then I knew right away he'd been dead in there for a few days and I also realized I had completely forgotten that smell from way, way back in my earlier days.

That is not the kind of smell one easily forgets if they are unfortunate to have to smell it. And I remember when I was much younger I did not forget it even years later and honestly thought I would never forget it and I found out not too long ago I was wrong. And being reminded of that smell was a very unpleasant experience.