Ask me about Star Trek, SC edition

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Re: Ask me about Star Trek, SC edition

Post by gnome »

Anaxagoras wrote: Wed Mar 04, 2020 2:07 pm
Abdul Alhazred wrote: Wed Mar 04, 2020 11:55 am CL00: Making the bug eyed monster look like Trump sucks as political commentary let alone science fiction.
Did they actually do that?
If there was a bug-eyed monster in any current Trek I didn't notice.
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Re: Ask me about Star Trek, SC edition

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I've been rewatching ST:TNG and I think what stood out for me the most is lack of any drone use or even probe use in plots. Even when sending Data would be prudent a team of living beings is sent instead.

Is there ever a reason given for aversion to the use of robots?
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Re: Ask me about Star Trek, SC edition

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Abdul Alhazred wrote: Wed Mar 04, 2020 9:25 pm
Grammatron wrote: Wed Mar 04, 2020 8:20 pm I've been rewatching ST:TNG and I think what stood out for me the most is lack of any drone use or even probe use in plots. Even when sending Data would be prudent a team of living beings is sent instead.

Is there ever a reason given for aversion to the use of robots?
There are certain Asimov stories where the galactic empire's lack of robots is explained as the result of superstition.

In some of the later stories, this is retconned so that the robots hiding in the background pulling the strings are encouraging that superstition.

Maybe something like that, unexplained because the people of the Star Trek era simply take it for granted that the robot thing is "not done". :coolspecs:

Could be some evil empire of Star Trek's past made extensive use of robots, pretty much souring everybody on the whole robot business.

Anton Coridian's regime, or that of Donald Trump. :BigGrin3:
The Foundation series --however you want to incorporate prequels, sequels, etc.. -- has clear reasons for not using robots.

I have not perceive the same reasons in Star Trek. In fact they send probes out all the time, just less than they should. Sometimes taking the Enterprise or shuttles into incredible danger where a disposable probe would have been perfectly safe and proper to use.
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Re: Ask me about Star Trek, SC edition

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Grammatron wrote: Wed Mar 04, 2020 8:20 pm I've been rewatching ST:TNG and I think what stood out for me the most is lack of any drone use or even probe use in plots. Even when sending Data would be prudent a team of living beings is sent instead.

Is there ever a reason given for aversion to the use of robots?
Because they had rights. Obviously.
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Re: Ask me about Star Trek, SC edition

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Hotarubi wrote: Wed Mar 04, 2020 10:36 pm
Grammatron wrote: Wed Mar 04, 2020 8:20 pm I've been rewatching ST:TNG and I think what stood out for me the most is lack of any drone use or even probe use in plots. Even when sending Data would be prudent a team of living beings is sent instead.

Is there ever a reason given for aversion to the use of robots?
Because they had rights. Obviously.
Considering how many times Federation scientists wanted to take Data apart, they had "rights" at best.
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Re: Ask me about Star Trek, SC edition

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Grammatron wrote: Wed Mar 04, 2020 10:41 pm
Hotarubi wrote: Wed Mar 04, 2020 10:36 pm
Grammatron wrote: Wed Mar 04, 2020 8:20 pm I've been rewatching ST:TNG and I think what stood out for me the most is lack of any drone use or even probe use in plots. Even when sending Data would be prudent a team of living beings is sent instead.

Is there ever a reason given for aversion to the use of robots?
Because they had rights. Obviously.
Considering how many times Federation scientists wanted to take Data apart, they had "rights" at best.
Didn't Leodegrance of Sunstone help establish those rights in the second series?
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Re: Ask me about Star Trek, SC edition

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Re: Ask me about Star Trek, SC edition

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Doctor X wrote: Thu Mar 05, 2020 1:09 am Cameliard! Cameliard!

– J. "For it is the Doom of Men that They Forget!" D.
Never did quite fathom Boorman's insistance on using Wagner and Orff in a film about an English King. Works though. Boy does it work.

But y'know. Churmans.

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Re: Ask me about Star Trek, SC edition

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Wait, are you saying that sending an away team consisting of all the senior officers (and one yeoman) is not standard naval policy when reaching an unknown, possibly hostile shore ?
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Re: Ask me about Star Trek, SC edition

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Grammatron wrote: Wed Mar 04, 2020 8:20 pm I've been rewatching ST:TNG and I think what stood out for me the most is lack of any drone use or even probe use in plots. Even when sending Data would be prudent a team of living beings is sent instead.

Is there ever a reason given for aversion to the use of robots?
Sort of. By having an episode that explicitly defined Data as being a full person legally, it would have been anathema to send Data somewhere on the presumption that his loss would be less tragic than loss of a human crew member. It does not account for times when Data would be an ideal specialist based on his abilities and they skip him--but there were plenty of episodes where his unique abilities were relied on.

As far as the use of less sophisticated robots/drones, I don't recall any in-story discussion of the matter, so the only explanation I can offer is a Doylist interpretation. The theme of the show is humanity's potential in space, so it makes sense to showcase the humans doing things. Or, if you want to be a bit more cynical, it makes for better TV to have a character do something instead of a remote drone.

The Discovery TV show finds some uses for drones, though perhaps not as extensively as might exist if the technology were available in the real world.
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Re: Ask me about Star Trek, SC edition

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Grammatron wrote: Wed Mar 04, 2020 10:41 pm
Considering how many times Federation scientists wanted to take Data apart, they had "rights" at best.
... once? In the very episode where his rights were established.

I'm opening up myself to getting out geeked if there is another episode I forgot.

Interestingly (and not a spoiler), the new Picard show seems to be again taking on the question of the rights of artificial beings. Complete with Maddox references, which I appreciate. So many times a new story that's a follow up on on an older idea forgets that the crew has been through it before.

"Whoa! That thing can change shape!" ...said by people who have been impersonated by shape-changers several times in their career.
"If fighting is sure to result in victory, then you must fight! Sun Tzu said that, and I'd say he knows a little bit more about fighting than you do, pal, because he invented it, and then he perfected it so that no living man could best him in the ring of honor. Then, he used his fight money to buy two of every animal on earth, and then he herded them onto a boat, and then he beat the crap out of every single one. And from that day forward any time a bunch of animals are together in one place it's called a zoo! (Beat) Unless it's a farm!"
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Re: Ask me about Star Trek, SC edition

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gnome wrote: Thu Mar 05, 2020 12:43 pm
Grammatron wrote: Wed Mar 04, 2020 10:41 pm
Considering how many times Federation scientists wanted to take Data apart, they had "rights" at best.
... once? In the very episode where his rights were established.

I'm opening up myself to getting out geeked if there is another episode I forgot.
Cant think of one. Later though, the inference was that Lal was going to go under the knife to a research establishment for....unpleasant study.
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Re: Ask me about Star Trek, SC edition

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I don't think the implication there was that disassembly was in the offering--more of a "we think she'd be better off in our custody" -- so speaking to her well-being, however misguided.
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Re: Ask me about Star Trek, SC edition

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gnome wrote: Thu Mar 05, 2020 1:50 pm I don't think the implication there was that disassembly was in the offering--more of a "we think she'd be better off in our custody" -- so speaking to her well-being, however misguided.
Ward of the state in "Starfleet Research."

Yeah. We know how that turns out.
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Re: Ask me about Star Trek, SC edition

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Never said it was a fine idea, just that it would indeed still be illegal for them to just disassemble her or refuse her the same rights as Data.
"If fighting is sure to result in victory, then you must fight! Sun Tzu said that, and I'd say he knows a little bit more about fighting than you do, pal, because he invented it, and then he perfected it so that no living man could best him in the ring of honor. Then, he used his fight money to buy two of every animal on earth, and then he herded them onto a boat, and then he beat the crap out of every single one. And from that day forward any time a bunch of animals are together in one place it's called a zoo! (Beat) Unless it's a farm!"
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Re: Ask me about Star Trek, SC edition

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Never said it was a fine idea, just that it would indeed still be illegal for them to just disassemble her or refuse her the same rights as Data.
"If fighting is sure to result in victory, then you must fight! Sun Tzu said that, and I'd say he knows a little bit more about fighting than you do, pal, because he invented it, and then he perfected it so that no living man could best him in the ring of honor. Then, he used his fight money to buy two of every animal on earth, and then he herded them onto a boat, and then he beat the crap out of every single one. And from that day forward any time a bunch of animals are together in one place it's called a zoo! (Beat) Unless it's a farm!"
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Re: Ask me about Star Trek, SC edition

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That wasn't the question settled in "The Measure of a Man" -- the question was whether Data could refuse such a request, or if he was a Starfleet asset--property. It was given as a fact that the proposed procedure would put him at risk.

Lal, not even being in Starfleet--probably they have even less leeway.
"If fighting is sure to result in victory, then you must fight! Sun Tzu said that, and I'd say he knows a little bit more about fighting than you do, pal, because he invented it, and then he perfected it so that no living man could best him in the ring of honor. Then, he used his fight money to buy two of every animal on earth, and then he herded them onto a boat, and then he beat the crap out of every single one. And from that day forward any time a bunch of animals are together in one place it's called a zoo! (Beat) Unless it's a farm!"
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Re: Ask me about Star Trek, SC edition

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Seeing as very few people understood the machinations of a positronic brain, I would have little doubt that Lal's "headflap" would have been opened on the first day. I kinda got an underlying nefarious menace or "threat" to Lal from from that episode. At least that was my interpretation of it.
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Re: Ask me about Star Trek, SC edition

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Hotarubi wrote: Thu Mar 05, 2020 7:00 pm Seeing as very few people understood the machinations of a positronic brain, I would have little doubt that Lal's "headflap" would have been opened on the first day. I kinda got an underlying nefarious menace or "threat" to Lal from from that episode. At least that was my interpretation of it.
I got more of a social worker "We can take care of her better than you, and study her at the same time" vibe. The threat was being separated from her "father". Not everything they would have wanted to do would involve disassembly.
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Re: Ask me about Star Trek, SC edition

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Lal didn't have the appropriate chance to get properly 'Rikered'. This led directly to her neural net cascade breakdown.
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Re: Ask me about Star Trek, SC edition

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gnome wrote: Thu Mar 05, 2020 7:30 pm
Hotarubi wrote: Thu Mar 05, 2020 7:00 pm Seeing as very few people understood the machinations of a positronic brain, I would have little doubt that Lal's "headflap" would have been opened on the first day. I kinda got an underlying nefarious menace or "threat" to Lal from from that episode. At least that was my interpretation of it.
I got more of a social worker "We can take care of her better than you, and study her at the same time" vibe. The threat was being separated from her "father". Not everything they would have wanted to do would involve disassembly.
Haftel arrives too quickly.
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Re: Ask me about Star Trek, SC edition

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It's only TV.
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Re: Ask me about Star Trek, SC edition

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Most of ST:TNG wasnt anything like television.
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Re: Ask me about Star Trek, SC edition

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gnome wrote: Thu Mar 05, 2020 12:43 pm
Grammatron wrote: Wed Mar 04, 2020 10:41 pm
Considering how many times Federation scientists wanted to take Data apart, they had "rights" at best.
... once? In the very episode where his rights were established.

I'm opening up myself to getting out geeked if there is another episode I forgot.
Once is correct. There are some instances where some Admirals (current and former) threaten Data.

And there there have been other instances, including the Lal episode, where Data was not viewed more than an object. Even Picard himself forgets about Data as a being sometimes (btw I think it's very cool of the show to show that). During the Klingon Civil War when Picard is organizing the blockade he neglects to give Data a command of his own until Data points it out.

Data is consistently a very well written character.
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Re: Ask me about Star Trek, SC edition

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Yes--they were even pushing at times into him having emotions of his own kind... which is why I never liked the "emotion chip" shortcut. I wanted him to effectively program himself with emotions relating to how he reacts to things. He clearly does experience reactions that are analogous.
"If fighting is sure to result in victory, then you must fight! Sun Tzu said that, and I'd say he knows a little bit more about fighting than you do, pal, because he invented it, and then he perfected it so that no living man could best him in the ring of honor. Then, he used his fight money to buy two of every animal on earth, and then he herded them onto a boat, and then he beat the crap out of every single one. And from that day forward any time a bunch of animals are together in one place it's called a zoo! (Beat) Unless it's a farm!"
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Re: Ask me about Star Trek, SC edition

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Grammatron wrote: Fri Mar 06, 2020 8:30 pm
gnome wrote: Thu Mar 05, 2020 12:43 pm
Grammatron wrote: Wed Mar 04, 2020 10:41 pm
Considering how many times Federation scientists wanted to take Data apart, they had "rights" at best.
... once? In the very episode where his rights were established.

I'm opening up myself to getting out geeked if there is another episode I forgot.
Once is correct. There are some instances where some Admirals (current and former) threaten Data.

And there there have been other instances, including the Lal episode, where Data was not viewed more than an object. Even Picard himself forgets about Data as a being sometimes (btw I think it's very cool of the show to show that). During the Klingon Civil War when Picard is organizing the blockade he neglects to give Data a command of his own until Data points it out.

Data is consistently a very well written character.
Yet badly acted. Stan Laurel as an Andriod? Embarrassing at times.

However, it is true that the some of the Data and Picard focused episodes were the best of TNG. The other character focused stories just sucked. Hard.
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Re: Ask me about Star Trek, SC edition

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Three out of five total actors to portray Lurch from the Addams Family have been featured in Star Trek media. That is a thing that you know now.
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Re: Ask me about Star Trek, SC edition

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I mean, he basically PLAYED Lurch in "What Are Little Girls Made Of".

Ruk: "YOU RANG?"
Dr. Korby: "Not you... send me my other assistant, the one with her tits falling out of her outfit. I'm bored."
Ruk: (disdainfully) "UUUUURRRRRRHHHH"
"If fighting is sure to result in victory, then you must fight! Sun Tzu said that, and I'd say he knows a little bit more about fighting than you do, pal, because he invented it, and then he perfected it so that no living man could best him in the ring of honor. Then, he used his fight money to buy two of every animal on earth, and then he herded them onto a boat, and then he beat the crap out of every single one. And from that day forward any time a bunch of animals are together in one place it's called a zoo! (Beat) Unless it's a farm!"
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Re: Ask me about Star Trek, SC edition

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Image
"If fighting is sure to result in victory, then you must fight! Sun Tzu said that, and I'd say he knows a little bit more about fighting than you do, pal, because he invented it, and then he perfected it so that no living man could best him in the ring of honor. Then, he used his fight money to buy two of every animal on earth, and then he herded them onto a boat, and then he beat the crap out of every single one. And from that day forward any time a bunch of animals are together in one place it's called a zoo! (Beat) Unless it's a farm!"
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Re: Ask me about Star Trek, SC edition

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I agree, with three active shows and potentially two more on the way, it's time to again have a place where people can get some answers from a self-appointed expert.

If Trek were to be "cancelled" for cultural offenses, the Next-Gen episode "Code of Honor" comes to mind as the most egregious, but TOS had its share, of which the casting of Khan is but a minor entry.

As for the question of timeline divergence--a question is, how strictly do you want to take that? For example, a Federation ship definitely did not land at Roswell with a Ferengi on board. If, perhaps, we want to make allowances for the Star Trek "version" of familiar events, there is an excellent "Eugenics Wars" series by Greg Cox which took place in the 1990s, and could plausibly, if you squint at it, occur not significantly differently than what most people believed was going on then.

So I might reframe the question as what was the first divergent event in Trek's history, that definitely would have been known to all in the real world. I think the Millennium Gate episode of Voyager is a good candidate for that. I am however interested in what you have come up with.
"If fighting is sure to result in victory, then you must fight! Sun Tzu said that, and I'd say he knows a little bit more about fighting than you do, pal, because he invented it, and then he perfected it so that no living man could best him in the ring of honor. Then, he used his fight money to buy two of every animal on earth, and then he herded them onto a boat, and then he beat the crap out of every single one. And from that day forward any time a bunch of animals are together in one place it's called a zoo! (Beat) Unless it's a farm!"
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Re: Ask me about Star Trek, SC edition

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Also, to get the usual questions out of the way:

Of the Discovery cast, Emily Coutts (Lt. Detmer) and Rebecca Romijn ("Number One") have appeared naked in stuff.

Of the Picard cast, Alison Pill (Dr. Jurati) has.
"If fighting is sure to result in victory, then you must fight! Sun Tzu said that, and I'd say he knows a little bit more about fighting than you do, pal, because he invented it, and then he perfected it so that no living man could best him in the ring of honor. Then, he used his fight money to buy two of every animal on earth, and then he herded them onto a boat, and then he beat the crap out of every single one. And from that day forward any time a bunch of animals are together in one place it's called a zoo! (Beat) Unless it's a farm!"
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Re: Ask me about Star Trek, SC edition

Post by gnome »

Using Rule34 on Star Trek is cheating. Star Trek fandom practically invented slashfic.
"If fighting is sure to result in victory, then you must fight! Sun Tzu said that, and I'd say he knows a little bit more about fighting than you do, pal, because he invented it, and then he perfected it so that no living man could best him in the ring of honor. Then, he used his fight money to buy two of every animal on earth, and then he herded them onto a boat, and then he beat the crap out of every single one. And from that day forward any time a bunch of animals are together in one place it's called a zoo! (Beat) Unless it's a farm!"
--Soldier, TF2
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gnome
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Re: Ask me about Star Trek, SC edition

Post by gnome »

It kind of works with how much they argue all the time but continually hang around each other.
"If fighting is sure to result in victory, then you must fight! Sun Tzu said that, and I'd say he knows a little bit more about fighting than you do, pal, because he invented it, and then he perfected it so that no living man could best him in the ring of honor. Then, he used his fight money to buy two of every animal on earth, and then he herded them onto a boat, and then he beat the crap out of every single one. And from that day forward any time a bunch of animals are together in one place it's called a zoo! (Beat) Unless it's a farm!"
--Soldier, TF2
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robinson
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Re: Ask me about Star Trek, SC edition

Post by robinson »

So Spock is a vampire?
still working on Sophrosyne, but I will no doubt end up with Hubris
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Hotarubi
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Re: Ask me about Star Trek, SC edition

Post by Hotarubi »

Abdul Alhazred wrote: Mon Sep 14, 2020 9:58 pm Well gee whiz :roll:

https://rule34.xxx/index.php?page=post& ... tags=spock+ <== NSFW
Tentacles.

Theres always tentacles.
Yep, you totally outsmarted me ~ Wildcat.

:ball2:

I'm sure I came up with Twatter first. ~ Moi
I only steal from the rich. :BigGrin3: ~ Witness
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gnome
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Re: Ask me about Star Trek, SC edition

Post by gnome »

Oh well that's easy, everyone on the Enterprise (either version) was always so amazing in bed that their exes would purposely get assigned nearby so that they might run into them.
"If fighting is sure to result in victory, then you must fight! Sun Tzu said that, and I'd say he knows a little bit more about fighting than you do, pal, because he invented it, and then he perfected it so that no living man could best him in the ring of honor. Then, he used his fight money to buy two of every animal on earth, and then he herded them onto a boat, and then he beat the crap out of every single one. And from that day forward any time a bunch of animals are together in one place it's called a zoo! (Beat) Unless it's a farm!"
--Soldier, TF2
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gnome
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Re: Ask me about Star Trek, SC edition

Post by gnome »

Image

These are SPACE cave people, from the FUTURE. They'll shave and do their hair up, but can't manage but scraps of clothing.

Image
"If fighting is sure to result in victory, then you must fight! Sun Tzu said that, and I'd say he knows a little bit more about fighting than you do, pal, because he invented it, and then he perfected it so that no living man could best him in the ring of honor. Then, he used his fight money to buy two of every animal on earth, and then he herded them onto a boat, and then he beat the crap out of every single one. And from that day forward any time a bunch of animals are together in one place it's called a zoo! (Beat) Unless it's a farm!"
--Soldier, TF2
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gnome
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Re: Ask me about Star Trek, SC edition

Post by gnome »

There's some handwaving about universal translators. It's an interesting idea, though I think it's unlikely for one to be as effective as portrayed.

But generally speaking except in situations where a universal translator could not be availalble, the fact that they don't take it out and listen between lines of a conversation can be taken as a narrative shorthand, I figure. In fact they did it quite elegantly in Star Trek VI--the courtroom scene started in Klingon with people shown listening to translators, then it swapped into English for the sake of the audience.
"If fighting is sure to result in victory, then you must fight! Sun Tzu said that, and I'd say he knows a little bit more about fighting than you do, pal, because he invented it, and then he perfected it so that no living man could best him in the ring of honor. Then, he used his fight money to buy two of every animal on earth, and then he herded them onto a boat, and then he beat the crap out of every single one. And from that day forward any time a bunch of animals are together in one place it's called a zoo! (Beat) Unless it's a farm!"
--Soldier, TF2
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sparks
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Re: Ask me about Star Trek, SC edition

Post by sparks »

ST: TNG "Darmok".
You can lead them to knowledge, but you can't make them think.
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Re: Ask me about Star Trek, SC edition

Post by gnome »

sparks wrote: Thu Sep 24, 2020 1:43 am ST: TNG "Darmok".
The translators could handle the words and short phrases, but wasn't prepared for meme language.
"If fighting is sure to result in victory, then you must fight! Sun Tzu said that, and I'd say he knows a little bit more about fighting than you do, pal, because he invented it, and then he perfected it so that no living man could best him in the ring of honor. Then, he used his fight money to buy two of every animal on earth, and then he herded them onto a boat, and then he beat the crap out of every single one. And from that day forward any time a bunch of animals are together in one place it's called a zoo! (Beat) Unless it's a farm!"
--Soldier, TF2